02 Forester S 5MT steering AND driveline problems

[888]

Hey there, I have a nice 2002 Forester S 5MT I need to make a decision on keeping or letting go and I can't figure out what's actually wrong with it.  It had a driveline problem when I bought it about 3 months ago but it's developed a steering problem over the last few days that caused me to park it.

 

First, the steering problem:

 

It started out with just a hint of heavy steering feel occasionally and eventually got more noticable and I had a bit of belt squeal.  I checked the fluid level and it was good when checked, no signs of aeration, belts appear to be relatively new.  I noticed that the jack bolt to tension the belt was broken off but the belt tension seemed good.  I replaced the bolt and set tension to around .5" in the center of the top span.  I did not check it for aeration after replacing the bolt, but the only noise I now get from the belt is a very tiny bit occasionally at full lock so that seems better. 

 

The steering seemed a bit better but during my commute back and forth to work (70 miles total), it got progressively worse and it has settled down to the following symptom:

 

The steering is very hard to turn in either direction from center for a very short distance, maybe 15 degrees, and then it appears that the power steering kicks in, and then it gets tough to turn again.  This happens in either direction, symmetrical to the center position of the steering wheel.  . 

 

There is absolutely no noise from the power steering system

 

Any ideas?   

 

The driveline problem:

 

When turning in either direction with around 45 degrees of steering wheel, I get the sense that something in the suspension is shifting slightly and then returning to position.  It's a fairly muted noise but I can feel something moving.

 

When making a sharp turn in either direction, maybe 90 degrees of steering wheel, I get a fairly sharp mechanical noise in addition to a larger feeling of something shifting under the car. 

 

I have a buddy who works on Subarus a lot, he does TB changes and other stuff, knows them pretty well.  I took it to him and he jacked it up and pushed/pried on everything to see if he could find play anywhere and there was nothing that stood out.  He suspected the struts were original and thought we should replace the mounts and struts because he's seen them develop steps or ledges that cause this.  I was . 

 

For the alarming metallic noise on turns he recommended changing the transmission and rear end oil with Subaru OEM and see if it got better.  It has not gotten better.  I noticed that some of the fluid from the bottom of the transmission was dark when first draining.   

 

I wanted to see if I could get that noise straightened out before putting any money in the car with the struts and mounts etc.

 

Any ideas on the driveline stuff?  I've read adding some Lucas tranny juice sometimes helps and that's easy enough. 

 

Car drives perfectly and quietly in a straight line, the car is tight and quiet over bumps, no hint of a problem.   Turn a corner and all hell breaks loose.

 

Tires on the OEM alloy wheels when I bought the car were same size,two different brands.  I've installed equally worn 4 Pirellis on OEM alloys from my Legacy wagon as a test.

 

I'm leaving for a few days but wen I get back, I plan on jacking it up and getting back under under it to be sure there is nothing I missed in the driveline, U joints or something like that.  I recall the rear lower trailing arm bushings seemed a bit soft but the Subaru guy indicated they weren't bad enough to cause what I'm feeling. 

 

I also read something about pulling the AWD fuse to put it in FWD mode and see if that removes the problem?

 

Information from the PO (not a car person) is that the car was traded in at a local Subaru dealer on a new one and his dad got it from the auction 4 years ago. He told me he had front brakes installed (true) and what he called the center differential (not sure about that) replaced.  

 

It has 192k miles on it and there is not a hint of cold start knock and I've never heard a quieter engine so I think it must have been replaced.  .It's an S so it's got the leather wheel and shifter, heated cloth seats, and the best OEM stereo I've ever heard in a car, as well as no rust top or bottom.

 

Other bad stuff...

 

Someone did a very serious weld job on a test pipe in place of the second cat but somehow disabled the CEL, might have removed the bulb, I just know it doesn't light up when the car starts.  I see a second cat heater fault when I scan it and I get some small backfires in the exhaust when shifting, so i assume the mixture is off a little. MPG is normal, I saw it drop off and caught a bad knock sensor with a scan so I fixed that.

 

Sorry for the length, as mentioned I am at a decision point with the car.  Either I dump he money into it to fix the steering and driveline (may end up way upside down in it and still have a test piped car with disabled CEL wizardry), pull the engine, ECU, and wiring for a Vanagon swap down the road and part the rest, or sell it as is and take the loss.

 

I love Subarus, I bought my first 82 DL hatch back in 85 and I have three right now (06 Legacy GT, 02 Legacy wagon and the Forester) but I'm not sure about what it will take to save this one. 

 

TIA

 

Joe

[matt167]

mismatched tires, hard turning and driveline problems = torque bind

Time for a new viscous center diff, or a transmission depending on which is cheaper..

 

All in all, $6-800 in repairs most likely and then a new set of tires. But if it's clean and solid it's most deffinetly worth fixing

[1 Lucky Texan]

steering sounds like the U or 'cardan' joint that is on the steering column.

 

not a good sign that 2 different tires were found on the car - could be the center differential was damaged. The symptom in manual transmissions is often apparent or worse after a brief warm-up. Sometimes seems OK when cold. The 5mt does not like synthetic GL-5 but I don't know about the Lucas additive. Your description of the drained fluid from the trans may also point to the silicone having leaked out of the center diff unit. If the car was driven a lot after that happened - could be the FRONT diff (and the trans) has been poorly lubricated.

 

did I miss it or did you report if the 4 same-size Pirelli's helped at all?

 

you can still scan the ECU for codes and it would probably be a good idea.

 

DOH! - beat by stopping to talk to my boss!

Edited July 28, 2016 by 1 Lucky Texan

[888]

mismatched tires, hard turning and driveline problems = torque bind

Time for a new viscous center diff, or a transmission depending on which is cheaper..

 

All in all, $6-800 in repairs most likely and then a new set of tires. But if it's clean and solid it's most deffinetly worth fixing

 

Thanks for the reply.  Just to be clear, installing a set of matched tires from my Legacy wagon did not help the problem. 

[888]

steering sounds like the U or 'cardan' joint that is on the steering column.

 

not a good sign that 2 different tires were found on the car - could be the center differential was damaged. The symptom in manual transmissions is often apparent or worse after a brief warm-up. Sometimes seems OK when cold. The 5mt does not like synthetic GL-5 but I don't know about the Lucas additive. Your description of the drained fluid from the trans may also point to the silicone having leaked out of the center diff unit. If the car was driven a lot after that happened - could be the FRONT diff (and the trans) has been poorly lubricated.

 

did I miss it or did you report if the 4 same-size Pirelli's helped at all?

 

you can still scan the ECU for codes and it would probably be a good idea.

 

DOH! - beat by stopping to talk to my boss!

 

I did find the U joint on another search, I'll look at that, thanks.

 

I have an OBDII scanner, used that to find the knock sensor and the secondary 02 heater fault from the missing cat.

 

Pirellis from my Legacy did not help. 

 

Problems in driveline are unaffected by warm up. 

 

I used the official Subaru oil from the dealer and they knew the VIN, not a good idea?

[888]

Also, I've seen discussions on torque bind being something found only in an automatic?  Not so, I guess.

 

One other thing I forgot to report from the Subaru guy after he drove it...this Forester apparently has a optional gear ratio, maybe a low 4:xx versus a high 3.xx?  Might be part of the S package, I've only owned the L version so I don;t know. 

 

I do know that this one will get out of it's own way a lot better than my other Forester did, certainly better than the Legacy, but the Legacy weighs 10% more.   It's not on a par with the GT but it's definitely spunky. 

 

Subaru guy said that contributes to the problem because of the additional torque from that gear ratio option. 

[1 Lucky Texan]

Extra-S or w'ever Subaru gave you is fine for the trans - but of course it won't repair any failed component like the center diff.

 

as a diagnostic experiment - maybe squirt the steering u-joint with some lube - if that problem is better - might be time for a new part there (DO NOT allow the steering wheel to spin when you disconnect that joint - you'll wreck the clockspring cable)

 

torque bind in the manuals is due to the VLSD part in the trans failing to disengage the plates - usually because the special silicone-based fluid has leaked out of it. Sometimes folks report that there's no or 'less' binding until the trans is warmed-up.

Edited July 28, 2016 by 1 Lucky Texan

[matt167]

<p>Forester '98-'0? were 4.44 ratio if automatic and 4.11 for 5spd. Impreza's which is the Forester's closest relation ( Lifted Impreza, box wagon body ) were 3.90... This is why they have a little more giddyup. steeper gear, lighter car, little more engine ( 2.5L vs 2.2L ).. The Legacy non outback should be a 4.11 if auto and 3.90 if 5spd but I could be totally wrong on that</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I have a '01 with 230k miles and it's showing early signs of torque bind but not bad enough to warrant replacement, even though when I replace the engine soon, I'm sticking a new trans in it too just cause it makes sense to guarentee trouble free</p>

<p> </p>

<p>mismatched tires on a MT is a lot harder on the trans/ diff than the auto's because the auto's use an electronic clutch for transfer, the manuals are 50/50 100% of the time relying on the VLSD for turning and wheel speed changes front- rear</p>

Edited July 28, 2016 by matt167

[idosubaru]

your steering column ujoint is seized.   used ones are $35 and it's like 2 bolts to replace them, very easy...though tight space and rust doesn't help get them off, but not hard at all. 

[888]

Thanks everybody.  I have a lot to look at when I get home next week. 

[888]

I hosed down the steering coupling and U joint with PB Blaster before I left for the weekend and it was good last night, drove it 30 miles to work this morning.  Thanks very much for the help with that!

 

Now I need to find somewhere to have the viscous coupling done, once I find a replacement.  Some bad noises under that car on sharp corners. 

[1 Lucky Texan]

In a new thread, ask for a shop suggestion near your city - if you're lucky, someone will know of a soob-experienced mechanic.

[1 Lucky Texan]

you mention the car had may have had the torque bind when you bought it - is there ANY chance the previous owner swapped the rear diff ? If they did but mismatched the final drive ratio - you need to know that.

 

IF they swapped-in an incorrect rear diff, and now the CENTER diff is destroyed and you install a new, correct for the model, trans - you'll be set-up to destroy it as well.

[888]

you mention the car had may have had the torque bind when you bought it - is there ANY chance the previous owner swapped the rear diff ? If they did but mismatched the final drive ratio - you need to know that.

 

IF they swapped-in an incorrect rear diff, and now the CENTER diff is destroyed and you install a new, correct for the model, trans - you'll be set-up to destroy it as well.

 

The car did have torque bind when I bought it, but I liked the rest of the car enough to take the risk on it and the price was reasonable for the risk.  I called my usual guy who does side work and he recommended the oil change as a starting place after jacking it up and giving it a pry or a shake to be sure nothing else was at fault.  He said the oil change might help but it was a place to start. 

 

The previous owner was nice enough but reminded me of someone who spent too many of his formative years in a facemask hooked to a very large bong, if you know what I mean.  He said something under the car had been replaced and thought it was the center differential when I mentioned it but I suspect it could have been anything from the oil filter to an exhaust clamp out by the tailpipe. 

[888]

In a new thread, ask for a shop suggestion near your city - if you're lucky, someone will know of a soob-experienced mechanic.

 

Will do.  I actually have a guy about a half hour away, I met him when I bought my Legacy wagon via Craigslist.  He buys repairable Subarus from Goodwill auctions and the like,rebuilds/repairs as needed and puts them back on the road.   He's done timing belts and other stuff for me, can do about anything on a Subaru when he has time.  He works out of his garage evenings after he gets off of his day job.  He currently is swapping a Supra inline 6 into a BMW 3 series in the garage (not sure why, other than it's not been done before) so he can't take on a lot of side work due to space and weather considerations.   I have this work to do and my son's Legacy GT needs some work done as well, having trouble getting him to do it.

[1 Lucky Texan]

cool - sounds like you have a plan going forward.

[888]

My plan developed into "I don"t have time to mess with it so I replaced it". 

 

i have two other projects in process that need to be done before cold weather so I really don't have time to wrench on anything else right now.

 

If anyone is local to Dayton Ohio, you can have it for $1,500.  

 

http://dayton.craigslist.org/cto/5727048486.html

 

Otherwise, it goes into the barn and becomes a Vanagon swap donor down the road and the rest gets parted out when the Vanagon is done.

 

Thanks for the help, guys!  I'll get another one some day and take less of a gamble next time.