Front Caliper Bracket Removal

[jmecdon]

I'm new to this site as I stumbled upon it trying to find a solution to a problem.  I'm trying to do a brake job on my 2011 Legacy.  I've done a dozen brake jobs before, but this is the first I'm doing on a Subaru.  I did the rear brakes first, and noticed that the bolts holding the caliper bracket on the passenger side had reverse threads.  I tried removing the bracket on the front passenger side, and the bolts will not budge.  I don't want to make matters worse, so that is why I'm asking this question.  Is the thread pattern on the front caliper bracket also reverse thread?

 

The driver side had a "normal" thread pattern.

 

I can't seem to find an answer to question anywhere.  I tried doing a forum search here, but didn't seem to find the issue covered.  Any help will be greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you

 

 

[Fairtax4me]

I've never seen reverse thread bolts for brakes on these cars. That would be news to me. Haven't done brakes on any Subaru as new as a 2011 though.

[idosubaru]

i highly doubt it, but i haven't worked on a 2011+ yet.  

 

rear bolts are the same passengers and drivers side, and have been used since 2006 Tribeca (which I own one of) and 2010+ legacy/outback::

http://parts.subaru.com/p/Subaru_2011_Legacy25L-CVT-4WDSedan/BOLT-FLG-M10X30/49301324/901000317.html

 

google shows no mention of left handed bolts in Subaru's, which would be weird considering the number of forums, DIY, and mechanics on Subaru forums. 

 

Subaru rotors routinely last the life of the vehicle, even if the outer non mating surfaces are rusty, those are unused surfaces only, it's no big deal to run them 200,000 miles routinely. There's only one issue related to replacing the rear rotors but it's extremely rare and few people have seen it. Vibrating on deceleration from high speeds is front rotors, they can be turned, properly clean/regrease the slides with high quality (not generic) caliper grease to prevent it from happening again.  Aftermarket rotors have more issues, probably due to inferior casting processes/materials, and are a downgrade in performance from the OEM rotors. 

 

If they're not vibrating you can leave the front rotors and properly grease the pins.  If you do replace them, and don't mind slapping a shipping lable on the used ones in the box for the new ones, i'll take them and save them from the land fill. 

[gbhrps]

jmecdon,

 

I just did the brakes yesterday on my 2012 OBW, (the same as your Legacy) and there are no reverse thread bolts that mount the calipers.

 

I've owned 4 OBW's since 1997, one of each generation, and none of them used reverse threads on any of the brake parts.

[Mikevan10]

Not to hijack the thread, but GrossGary's comment that  "Subaru rotors routinely last the life of the vehicle" knoocked me for a loop!  I know GG knows his stuff so that's why I am so surprised.  My experience has been that pulsations under braking (at least on my wife's '97 Legacy wagon with MT) return within a few thousand miles of replacing the rotors and pads.  I will acknowledge that I have never bought a Subaru new (or with low mileage) so I assume that I have never experienced an OEM rotor.

[Numbchux]

There are no left hand threads on the caliper brackets. If you had hardware come out by spinning it clockwise, you've got something broken or stripped.

 

 

 

Not to hijack the thread, but GrossGary's comment that  "Subaru rotors routinely last the life of the vehicle" knoocked me for a loop!  I know GG knows his stuff so that's why I am so surprised.  My experience has been that pulsations under braking (at least on my wife's '97 Legacy wagon with MT) return within a few thousand miles of replacing the rotors and pads.  I will acknowledge that I have never bought a Subaru new (or with low mileage) so I assume that I have never experienced an OEM rotor.

 

Then you either have something else wrong, or you're using terrible parts.

[idosubaru]

You are correct - pulsating at high speeds is a common problem. But it's a *caused* problem, from poor condition parts, not routine or something that has to happen. 

 

For example - that doesn't happen on newer average daily drivers.  it's not like brand new subaru's are routinely vibrating and pulsating - new cars owners would be livid. none of the new subaru owners I personally know have brake rotor issues - i've never replaced them.  

 

So get your older Subaru closer to like-new component function and you won't have rotor issues either - this is hard in the rust prone areas as there are frequent issues:

1. Caliper slides routinely stick and need cleaned and regreased with high quality (Sil Glyde - the cheap permatex green can stuff sucks)

*** #1 is by far the biggest issue

I've taken apart sticking slides that had "new grease" in the past 1-3 years, that cheap grease is terrible, I'm surprised it's even for sale and used, mabye it's just not good in the rust belt or older cars have less sealed systems (boots, rusty mating surfaces), but i see it over and over again. 

2. the slide pin boots can be cracked or not seal

3. the brake caliper retaining clips can get rusty or significant black build up which hands pads or prevents them from easily sliding and staying off the rotors.  i've seen this a few times, causes 1 or 2 of the pads to wear down quicker than the rest - and isn't healthy to ride ont he caliper either. 

 

 

If you want rotors to last a long time:

Clean the pins and bores if needed, use Sil Glyde (or other high quality grease), replace any dirty, bent, rusty pad clips, replace any cracked/deformed boots

And get a set of OEM rotors - they're less prone to issues than OEM.  Hard to find older ones, but you can get like 2000 take off rotors from people who routinely replace rotors as a matter of habit.  

But with decently operating caliper pins/clips I've had good luck with aftermarket rotors too - i just thin they're less forgiving. 

[Mikevan10]

Thanks for the comments GG.  I will admit to using the Permatex brake lube (I "think" it's green.  Will check tonight) but whenever I check the brakes, the calipers are typically nice and free and the grease still greasy.  I do go ahead and clean the pins and apply new grease each time anyway.  Just to be clear, is the issue with sticky calipers that the pads will rub on the rotors when the brake is NOT applied which causes overheating of the rotor and rotor warpage?

 

You did mention the retaining clips.  Good point since replacement pads (I tend to use EBC) do not always come with new ones.

 

Are there other causes of this pulsation (which is cured, temporarily, by replacing the rotors)?

 

I really hate paying dealer prices for parts but maybe this is a case where I will have to suck it up and pay the dealer and get the OEM parts...

[idosubaru]

Yes - coagulated brake dust or rust on the retaining clips, poorly performing pins (cheap/no grease/corrosion) will hang pads.

 

Remember - newer Subaru's are going 100,000 miles without issue and have been for many decades - so if you're having issues, something should be causing it.

 

On older cars I'll just buy new pad clips and pins/bushings to get everything operating smoothly for the long haul.  Rockauto or onlinle are usually best, they tend to be pricey locally. 

If yours are immediately pulsating that's nowhere near normal. 

 

1997's don't have the slide pin bushings that swell due to the cheap grease - so they're a little more forgiving and you should be able to get away with it.  

That said - In my experience it's so low performing I'm surprised it's marketed as brake grease. I've seen lots of examples where it's notably not performing well in less than a year - noticed while rotating tires in under a year, working on a friends car that recently had brake work, etc. It is not very good.  I only accidentally stumbled on this when someone left a tube of Sil Glyde in a car I bought, i never knew "brake grease" would suck so bad until i accidentally used something ese.  

 

I've gotten aftermarket rotors to last, but i think they are less forgiving.  Maybe try grease/cleaning/replacing slides first and see if that helps. 

1997 is probably near impossible to find but a set of used OEM rotors would work too.

[heartless]

Subaru rotors routinely last the life of the vehicle, even if the outer non mating surfaces are rusty, those are unused surfaces only, it's no big deal to run them 200,000 miles routinely.

 

i guess it kind of depends on your definition of the "life" of the vehicle - and where you live...

 

this is one of the rear rotors I pulled off of my 95 Legacy when I got it...

 

Edited August 23, 2016 by heartless

[idosubaru]

i guess it kind of depends on your definition of the "life" of the vehicle - and where you live...

 

this is one of the rear rotors I pulled off of my 95 Legacy when I got it...

 

 

 

Yes, and not just about definition of "life".  a one-size-fits all statement might be "OEM Subaru rotors on daily drivers with properly operating brakes routinely last the life of the vehicle".

 

That picture is indicative of a vehicle that sat for extended period of time in the rust belt or in/over grass. That's more about prior history and maintenance than rotors as it's physically impossible for the contact areas to rust like that with a properly operating pad consistently removing the surface rust which propagates over night in humid/wet areas. 

 

interestingly, daily driver average subaru's have almost non-existent failure modes - so a high level of focus on rotors is usually not warranted in average daily driver situations. 

[Mikevan10]

Well, this topic has become well and truly hjacked but since the discussion is interesting, I may as well continue with the side track...  So here are a few comments that I'd love to get more comments on:

 

I may have inadvertently said something to indicate otherwise, but I do appreciate that having pulsations under braking develop is not "normal" and that it indicates that something is wrong.  Would it be safe to say that the pulsations are the result of brake tor overheating and consequent warpage?

 

What is the failure mode of the green Permatex brake grease?  Does it get hard? Sticky? Washed away by water?

 

I still have trouble with the notion of OEM brake rotors (or any brake rotor for that matter) lasting the life of the vehicle.  Even if a rotor is performing satisfactorily (i.e. not causing pulsations), isn't it proper practice to resurface it when changing out the pads?  If so, then my experience with contemporary rotors (OEM or otherwise) is that they allow very little (if any) extra thickness ("meat" in common parlance) for this so they soon become unuseable.

 

Thanks for the discussion!

 

Mike V.

[idosubaru]

if you have trouble with the notion, then do it your way, it's just a brake rotor, no big deal, everyone is right and happy, we don't have to agree. i *would not* apply any of this to other manufacturers, I don't know them well enough and they tend to differ.

 

is resurfacing good SOP's? yes.

 

but you have to ask why?

largely because most mechanics are working on unknown vehicles being used in unknown environments by mechanically inexperienced, terrible at self diagnosis, owners. i see a lot of cars - you never know what's true, what's not, what happened, what interpretations are correct...

 

also most mechanics are one-size-fits-all in their approaches - not very manafacturer, must less model, specific in experience, knowledge, and approach. which makes a difference - some manufacturers have frequent brake issues - but not subarus.

dealers only do things the FSM shows - not always the best approach

mechanics typically work on various vehicles and can't keep track of which manufacturers have robust brake systems, which don't, which have robust power steering, which don't, which have...et.al. they usually have generic approaches which are overkill and have large safety margins in them.

Manufacturer recommendations/processes are again one-size-fits-all apporach - which are generic and generic can't ever grab the complexities of a dynamic system with 100% accuracy, so there's huge safety margins in there, a few of which are entirely irrelevant and unnecessary. Can you run mismatched tires on a subaru - YES, easily - if you know the mechanics, but it's complicated, dynamic, and a better one-size-fits-all approach makes sense for Subaru, tire shops, mechanics, adn the general public is to simply say never run mismatched tires or give a tread depth to go by.

 

so if you want one-size-fits all generic approaches - by all means do that. they're usually a good starting point for most people. with some effort you can specialize but that's not for everyone.

 

The permatex green sucks terribly for pins with bushings - it swells the bushings.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicAdvice/comments/2m3opx/grease_on_caliper_slider_pin/

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-201303.html

http://www.odyclub.com/forums/52-2005-2010-odyssey/156506-brakes-lubricant-choice-caliper-slides-print.html

 

Otherwise I'm not sure what causes issues - i just routinely find the pins dry/sticky/goopy. You don't do dozens of brake jobs and 5+ years later find most green permatex in superb condition. That's all I know. Why, I'm not sure.

 

Over time I've just found the pins with very little grease left.

I just pulled a 99 legacy apart this week that was done a couple years ago and the pins were stuck, new pads were warn down on one side to nothing and the pin needed removed with massive effort and a huge plumbers monkey wrench - no amount of pounding with ahmmer/chisel would get it out. that doesn't happen with better greases. and this is far from anecdotal, i've worked on a lot of subaru's (not just the 40 or so I've owned).

 

Why - i don't know - i just know how to "not" make it happen.

 

260,000 miles, 190,000 miles on two of my daily drives and i've only replaced one front rotor, the rest are all original. and like i said - that's all day long i can do that for me, friends, and family for decades. no big deal and physically it all makes sense too.

 

They only need resurfaced if the rotors are pulsating - there's no reason to resurface them otherwise.

 

they get some undulations on the surface (not perfectly flat). One could argue that improves braking - it increases effective surface area for greater pad contact and improved cooling. you effectily have "larger rotors". there is no down side, only upside to braking performance. so resurfacing for "performance" reasons is entirely bunk except maybe in the most argumentative sense - the first few braking episodes.

 

The only downside is the pads may last 4,000 miles less due to it, hardly worth resurfacing rotors for.

 

I also have never replaced/resurfaced rotors in pairs - another completely and entirely unfounded one-size-fits-all approach. Smart for mechanics and general public, but easily avoided without issue.

There's no engineering/physical reason to do it - mostly driven by scaleability and uncertainty.

Edited August 23, 2016 by grossgary

[Mikevan10]

Thanks for the comments GG and I am truly sorry if my comments came off as argumentative.  That was far from my intention.  I was only curious and wanted to dig a bit deeper into the whys and why nots and you took the time to provide some details.  I do appreciate your opinions on this stuff so thanks again! 

 

Mike V.

1992 Legacy (mine)

1997 Legacy (wife's)

2008 Legacy GT (kid's)