2002 Outback VDC - 3.0

[xyzb]

Just bought this car for a bit over salvage price.  It appears it needs head gaskets- black tar in coolant reservoir.   Tranny is slipping on steep grades or I'm assuming when accelerating hard.

 

The car is in great shape - interior awesome and only 2 tiny spots of rust and not in the normal Subaru areas.

 

I've changed motors on these before but not a tranny. Looking for advice on things to try on the tranny before I pull the motor. If needed, I will try to find a low mileage trans and do the head gaskets.

 

Any feedback, advice, ideas, etc. would be appreciated.

 

Thanks!

[Numbchux]

I've used Seafoam trans-tune as a cleaner, drive for a bit, then 2 drain-and-fills (with some miles in between) and a new filter with the second can help quite a bit.

[idosubaru]

+1 get new fluid in there immediately and make sure the transmission pan isn't dented at all - there's very little clearance between the pan and suction entrance of the pick up tube inside the pan. 

[1 Lucky Texan]

confirm fluid level - wonder if it's possible radiator has leaked into the trans cooler coil and vice-versa?

 

with above fluid change - try a bottle of Trans-X (CRC or K&W ?) or similar on the last fill?

[xyzb]

It has a brand new radiator so anything is possible at this point. I'm in discovery mode on what is wrong with the car.  The engine runs good and quiet, just the head gasket issue.  I checked the level cold and it looks overfilled.

 

Thanks all for the quick responses - awesome board!

[1 Lucky Texan]

must check while idling, warm best. If it looked ovefilled by a lot with engine off, it may be dead on while idling. But a small amount over the appropriate mark while idling is probably not a problem.

 

go slow when filling, the marks on the stick are are not a quart apart like engine oil, more like a pint.

 

filling is easier with something like this;

 

Edited August 23, 2016 by 1 Lucky Texan

[xyzb]

Sounds good.  Is the tranny just a standard 4EAT?  Just wondering since it is A VDC.  If the above doesn't work then I will be shopping for a trans and was wondering what I could use or what is compatible.

 

Thanks!

[1 Lucky Texan]

others here know more about the VDC, but pretty sure the trans  fluid capacity, type, procedures are the same as 'regular' 4EAT.

 

many folks like Valvoline MaxLife synth. , others like the Subaru ATF-HP (backwards compatible, mandatory starting in 05 I think))

Edited August 23, 2016 by 1 Lucky Texan

[idosubaru]

yep, just regular ATF like all Subarus. 

i'd get an owners manual so you can look up fluid types and amounts/capacity and fuse locations and practical things like that, very handy to have when you need it.  i think there are digital copies now too, though i prefer old school having one in my car too. 

[xyzb]

Sorry, what I meant was if I do need a tranny, is mine a standard 4EAT and if there are other compatible ones.  I didn't know if the VCD is a special 4EAT version?

 

Thanks again.

[WoodsWagon]

Open the rear side doors and check for rust at the bottom of the door opening right by the seat. Also look over the rear subframe carefully, they rust out pretty badly. It would be a shame to put a bunch of work into a car with structural issues.

 

4eat is the same, the transfer case assembly is different. It's real AWD with a planetary differential instead of the plain rear transfer clutchpack that the non vdc's have. The front diff is a 4.11 ratio, so you need to find one to match which is only going to be in a h6 car.

[CNY_Dave]

VDC is essentially a special 4EAT version. It has a slightly different case and a different (much better for most) transfer mechanism to the rear wheels.

 

The VDC is 45/55 front/rear torque split, which is preferable to most, and it has the skid/traction control the regular 4EAT does not.

[xyzb]

Delayed engagement or no engagment, reverse works perfect.

 

Drained the trans fluid - bright red but smells burnt.  Should I add Trans -X on the refill or hold off?  Should the filter be replaced at this time?   If it still slips forward, is it related to the valve body or other parts? Is there some additional testing I could do?  I can change out the trans if needed with a lower mileage used one if needed.

 

Thanks!

[xyzb]

Changed fluid and initially it was much better.  Going from second to third however it would slip. Then all would slip.  If I went to neutral, then back to drive or 1,2 it would be find again.  I think it may be a delayed shift issue.  I'm going to add TransX.  Could I just change out solenoids on the valve body or the valve body itself or could it be something else?

 

Thanks

[idosubaru]

i'd change the fluid again - one drain/refill only gets like 30% of the old fluid out.  if you noticed a difference, maybe getting more of that old fluid out would help as well.

 

i think all H6's have VTD, not just the VDC model H6's.  i've always wondered if a non-VDC H6 would work in the VDC models.  but i don't think anyone knows as i've asked/looked before.

 

your H6 VTD will bolt up to the 4EAT transmission but the electronics i'd imagine are different. 

[1 Lucky Texan]

look at the trans pan - pushed in or dented?

 

um - you're checking fluid level while idling right? best after moving shifter thru each gear and at operating temps.

[xyzb]

Pan looks fine visually, I could put a straight edge to it I guess.   Yes, checking fluid when hot, idling, on level surface.  I will change the fluid again @grossgary.  Any feedback as far as changing solenoids or is it much more complicated than that.  I can find trannys for around 500 for this car.  I would mind digging into the valve body if someone could give me a bit more guidance.  I have a reader but doubt that it can read all the trans goodies.

 

The car is in awesome shape so I'm gonna get it going one way or another - love subies I guess.

 

Thanks for giving me ideas and help - I'm going to keep plugin away.

[idosubaru]

after running a bit - pull the ATF dipstick and see if the fluid has bubbles all over it or looks weird or normal. 

 

solenoids fail so rarely it's hard to say.

 

i would expect a blinking AT light and check engine light if the solenoids were failing - but you dont' have any of that?

 

you could look up the FSM values and test their electrical properties- - though probably in spec if no codes and the symptoms are that bad. 

i think the FSM calls for pressuing testing at the ports...

FSM would be good to skim through - they're free online, just search around you'll find one.

 

i would disconnect the transmission plug at the TCU (under dash above gas pedal) and allow the transmission to run in purely mechanical mode.  it'll be in 3rd gear all the time - but that's perfectly drivable, i've done it before.  the only issue, is older trans would also lock the 4WD as deafult mecahnical mode so it'll torque bind like nuts, drive it sparingly like that.  im' not sure what the VTD or VDC do when th plug is pulled though, haven't tried those.  but that would give you something to go on.  if it drives much better - that might mean the mechanicals are decent and not the root cause of the issue. 

 

how much debris was on the drain plug when you drained it?  

i'm guessing not much if you didn't mention it. 

[1 Lucky Texan]

any signs or damage to the radiator or the front left corner of the car? just wondering if cooler or filter lines coul;d be pinched or ????

[ccrinc]

Why does nobody ever think about the torque converter? On the later 4EATs, that is their weakest point.  The earlier models were not as sturdy, but Subaru improved the internals a lot in the late '90s.  However, the torque converter can (and does) wear out.  As long as you're going to be getting the engine out (trust me: on this car you want to take it out to do headgaskets), get a rebuilt torque converter.  If the trans. fluid looks and smells good, it's quite possible that's your main issue there.

 

Emily

[xyzb]

@Lucky Texan  The cooler is built into the radiator.  It is a new radiator, but I bypassed it anyway just to take that variable out of the loop. The fluid looks dark still.
I think if I change the trans fluid again and it is still acting up, it's gonna come out.   I have to say it is way better so I'm going to take the change fluid route first.

 

@ccrinc  I'm not sure about the torque converter but thanks for bringing that up.  Any way to test it ?

 

Here's another little wrinkle to add - the guy thought there was a head gasket issue but there was no overheating.  However, he was blowing radiator hoses.  He was told by someone?  that they thought the cooling system was getting pressurized by a cylinder leak going into a cooling passage.  I checked the oil and it is clean.  The antifreeze looks fine.  I felt the hoses and they feel like the are under more pressure than normal, but assumed that the rad cap would pop. I thought that the 3.0 was not a victim of the head gasket problem?

 

Thanks all!

[idosubaru]

it's pointless to check oil/coolant mixing - newer Subaru's never do that.  Or...I should say...if they do it's usually REALLY obvious there's major catastrophic issues - like rods throwing through blocks. 

 

3.0's do have headgasket failures, but they have distinct failure modes/symptoms and are often tricky to diagnose.  mechanics often miss them and replace various other components chasing and guessing.

 

the internal failure mode pushes exhaust gases into the cooling system.   i've seen them go a year or two in this condition, with no symptoms in the winter, and after a year or two then they get progressively worse much more quickly.  seen this multiple times in H6's. they're only common symptoms are:

 

1. they'll usually overheat under high loads or very specific conditions like - 70 mph, up a steep grade, 85+ degrees, with the A/C on - that's a typical time they're overheat in the very early stages, but run fine if even one of those things isn't true (turn off A/C, etc)

 

2.  bubbles in the overflow tank are a symptom and a pretty clear one.  check it at various times - idling, after a highway run, hot out, A/C on. 

 

due to their ability to do this very sporadically, have months between episodes, not overheat in the early stages....they're often hard to diagose at first. 

[xyzb]

@grossgary - thanks for all the info.  I will be looking for what you have mentioned.

[1 Lucky Texan]

how old is the radiator cap? is fluid being pushed into the overflow? how's the level in the radiator?

make sure the little overflow tube isn't jammed againts the bottom of the tank, many of us pull it out and cut the bottm at a 45* angle - use a tiny clamp or a coupla small zip ties on that tube's nipple at the radiator neck.

thermostat must be OEM style;

 

 

since you just bought it, I wouldn't discount the possibility someone has mistakenly put gear oil in the trans - it's been done before.

 

so, also check the front diff's oil level in case it was drained.

Edited September 15, 2016 by 1 Lucky Texan

[CNY_Dave]

BTW only the VDCs had VTD in Gen2 H6's.