coryl Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 I have a 2008 Impreza 2.5i. I bought the car 5 years ago and bought an extended warranty that covered everything for 4 years until 2015. Two years ago I took it into the dealership and they said I had an oil leak and needed my valve cover gasket replaced which I did and that cost me $300. Last year my full covered aftermarket warranty ended. Last week the dealership says that I still have an oil leak and are suggesting it might be my head gasket. After some research, it was mentioned that inexperienced people suggest replacing the valve cover when it's often actually the head gasket. Now here is my dilemma...if it is my head gasket and was always my head gasket, I'm now out thousands to fix when up to last year everything would have been included under warranty. I'm so angry right now and trying to figure out if I have a head gasket problem and if so what should I also fix if I do fix (both) gaskets and what kind of fight do I have with the dealership? I understand that so far my coolant and oil look good and that I only have a small oil leak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt167 Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Just keep driving it. Make sure you have Subaru coolant conditioner ( Holtz Radweld ) in the antifreeze. Generally they can go years before they get worse and some never do.. The only way your gonna 'need' to replace your gaskets is if you run it out of coolant.. Lets be clear tho. You had an aftermarket warranty, you did not really have a warranty that covered anything, hence why you still had to pay $300 for VC gaskets, which is about right for that job, might even be high Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 How many miles on the car? Head gasket leaks are common, unfortunately. But on the engines from that era the leaks tend to be very slow and are manageable if you can stand the smell of a little burnt oil. If it's not leaving a puddle under the car it's not really worth worrying about. Coolant stop leak won't stop an oil leak, and that engine isn't know to have external coolant leaks from the head gaskets, so I wouldn't even bother with putting the Subaru coolant stuff in it. The other likely place for an oil leak on that engine is the cam carrier seal. There's a plate about 3/4" thick that bolts to the cylinder head that holds the camshaft in place, and the valve cover bolts to that. The seal between the carrier and the head is just RTV and will often start leaking oil somewhere around 100k miles. Sometimes sooner. Again though, this tends to be a manageable and very slow leak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryl Posted September 5, 2016 Author Share Posted September 5, 2016 Subaru Nut, it was a buy back warranty in that if I didn't use it over the 4 years I'd get all back except for $400. It was worth it for me to pay the $300 for the valve cover to get back $1400 when it was getting closer to warranty end. If I'd have known that it was head gasket, I would have used the warranty and this is what I'm so upset about. The car has 97,000kms on it. I've looked and the coolant is a clear green color and oil is clear as well. No backfires and no overheating and no loss of power that I have noticed. I have a cardboard piece under the car for the past two days now and not one drop of oil on it and it was only because of the dealership mentioning the oil leak when they had it up on the hoist so I've not even seen where it's coming from so clearly it's a very small leak. Based on years of the car I'm also due for the timing belt replacement so I'm needing to get that done anyways. Since I will be doing that, is there anything else I should get done at the time? Thank you for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryl Posted October 25, 2016 Author Share Posted October 25, 2016 I've decided to fight this repair with Subaru Canada to see if they will back their cars and "participate" in the repair...I've opened a file. I'll let you know what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryl Posted October 25, 2016 Author Share Posted October 25, 2016 (edited) As I mentioned, it was an "potential" head gasket issue, but I was under the car last Thursday and oil is clearly leaking badly from the left head gasket and I can't just leave it and needs to be repaired ASAP. Car had only 95000kms when this was initially noticed by one of my friends at the dealership (I rust proof so there's always something dripping so I didn't realize it). I argued with my service manager who said "I know about the problem, they all have it, and I've seen cars with low kms with this problem, it happens". My service manager agreed to "support" me with Subaru Canada after I said I would take this further. Let's see how this all plays out. I told my service manager that my Mitsubishi Evo X MR is a 2008 and months older than my Subaru, yet I've never had any issue with it other than routine maintenance, yet I race it as often as I can. I love my Subaru but I'm so angry with all the money that I've had to put into it on top of routine maintenance. If I'm left to do this expensive repair on my own which Subaru totally knew about, I will be the worst Subaru advocate ever! Just saying. Edited February 6, 2017 by coryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 You likely have a more costly issue at hand - the timing belt is due. The belt, tensioner, and all the pulleys should be replaced. Timing belt labor is about $400 - $500 at a dealer. But that is all labor required during a headgasket job. So if you concurrently replace your timing belt during the headgasket job - you're essentially saving $400-$500. No mention of oil loss, no oil burning, no oil on the ground, and your description sounds liek they're just spotting oil leaks during other maintenance. Sounds like it's a very slow weeping - the results of a year or couple years of very slow pooling of oil on the surface of the metal. Not worth an alarm and not an immediate repair need. It's best to realize that every manufacturer has issues - even Mitsubishi's. If your logic is "one bad experience means you should never buy again from that manufacturer" - there's no manufacturer you can buy because all have had a bad experience by someone. If you assume that reality is only based on your experience, yours is more "weighted" than others - well that's problematic on grounds I won't cover. Threatening and running off anecdotal information (one experience) helps absoultely no one and encourages ill-informed consumers who don't make good decisions...just white knuckled, uninformed, selfish ones. Every manufacturer has issues - it's best to do some research and know what they are before you buy and make an informed decision about choice, maintenance, and cost. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryl Posted October 25, 2016 Author Share Posted October 25, 2016 Clearly you've not had to fork out a few thousand dollars for a head gasket repair shortly after warranty ends. Subaru clearly knows about their head gasket issue and is choosing to do nothing about it. And really, do not analyze me as you're making assumptions that I've only dealt with "one" Subaru issue. Subaru had the rusting bolt problem in 2008, and those with the STI's (and I think WRX's) were the only people who were lucky enough to have this repaired as a RECALL which meant they got the body repairs due to the damage those rusting bolts created fixed and their bolts swapped out. I argued with Subaru Canada, (that my 2 1/2 year old car, just 8000kms over the 60,000km bumper to bumper warranty), that my rusting bolts on my doors and spoiler would definitely be the same bolts put on my car as those who got the recall...they refused good will, and I had to replace all the door/spoiler bolts and make the body repairs including purchasing a new trunk at my cost....that was a very expensive repair! Here's an example of a car company coming up to the plate... Mitsubishi put the AYC/ACD pump on their Evo's and Ralliarts underneath the car close to the wheel area at the back. For those of us who live in areas of snow and salted roads, these expensive pumps were failing from corrosion. I spent a lot of time getting a company in England make the relocation kits (putting the pump to the trunk) for those of us in north America and have since relocated my pump. Mitsubishi, after denying the actual problem for 6 years , they eventually came up to the plate and gave reimbursements to those who had the failures, and then extended the warranty on the pumps to, 10 years, 160,000kms. By you accepting and defending a big company like Subaru, who knows that they have a problem and doesn't step up to the plate to fix it, actually does everyone who owns a car a disservice. Companies need to take some responsibility if they expect loyalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 From what you've posted, your issue sounds like it's almost entirely with your local dealership. Almost all of those SOHC 2.5s have seeping head gaskets if they haven't been fixed. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the valve cover job was a mis-diagnosis. Although, your statement "I have a cardboard piece under the car for the past two days now and not one drop of oil on it" means it's pretty minor, most of these cars leave their mark everywhere they go. ASSuming your head gaskets are seeping oil, the question at this point is whether the dealership can convince your extended warranty company to cover the problem by admitting that it was present while you were still covered, or they step up to the plate and cover it themselves (be it with coverage from Subaru or not). I definitely encourage you to make your situation known to Subaru of Canada. Due to my position (parts in a Subaru dealership), I don't see the cases where warranty is denied, but I see a lot where Subaru of America covered things that seem pretty far-fetched. Now, we are a large enough dealership to have our own warranty liason (a luxury most dealerships have to outsource), so getting things covered is much more streamlined. But it should be possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 "extended warranty" - that's a Subaru warranty right, not aftermarket? does your issue essentially boil down to wether or not the previous issue was a mis-diagnosed headgasket issue? no pictures I presume right? Gotcha, I wasn't trying to defend Subaru - I said "every" manufacturer has issues. "Every" would include Subaru. I can list most of subaru's issues in detailed fashion. EVO's = synchro, 4th gear, transfer case issues...great cars from the tiny bit I know about them but not without blemishes and mitsubishi balking at people, denying claims. But again - since I think every manufacturer has issues - i don't hold that against them and wouldn't rule them out based on any of those issues, or if one of those issues just happened to happen to me. I'd just buy, repair, maintain and own them accordingly....any car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryl Posted October 26, 2016 Author Share Posted October 26, 2016 I purchased an aftermarket warranty that covered every part of that car that expired in 2015. I had the valve cover replaced in 2014 Many experts have suggested that it's often a head gasket misdiagnosed as the valve cover and I'm thinking it's a good possibility therefore, yet my dealership cannot believe that they would have missed it. Read your post to me....you were totally defending Subaru. Yep many issues (as you've googled) with Evo's ...difference is that those issues often occur when people totally modify those cars (and it's a rare evo that's not been modified) and if I was the manufacturer, I wouldn't warranty them either as I've told many of my Evo friends...we pay to play. I'm talking here about basic problems like head gasket issues that Subaru has known about on their cars since 1998 and failed to fix and therefore allowed their customers to take the cost when these customers did nothing but trust. I don't accept it like you do, that buying, repairing, cars , that this company knowingly sells them with such an expensive repair after they know it exists when the warranty ends. I just took a trip home to Alberta, and my brother-in-law picked me up at the airport in his Subaru. I mentioned to him that he needed to repair his front windshield from a crack that went across. He said, "I've got a head gasket issue, so not sure I'm fixing it we can't afford it". This is just so wrong and we need to support each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryl Posted October 26, 2016 Author Share Posted October 26, 2016 Numbchux....Thank you for your message....I've contacted Subaru Canada and I'm waiting to hear back, My extended warranty is done...like you mentioned, it's a possibility that the valve cover repair was the actual head gasket issue. Regardless, this is an issue that Subaru should own.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 I purchased an aftermarket warranty that covered every part of that car that expired in 2015. I had the valve cover replaced in 2014 Many experts have suggested that it's often a head gasket misdiagnosed as the valve cover and I'm thinking it's a good possibility therefore, yet my dealership cannot believe that they would have missed it. Read your post to me....you were totally defending Subaru. Yep many issues (as you've googled) with Evo's ...difference is that those issues often occur when people totally modify those cars (and it's a rare evo that's not been modified) and if I was the manufacturer, I wouldn't warranty them either as I've told many of my Evo friends...we pay to play. I'm talking here about basic problems like head gasket issues that Subaru has known about on their cars since 1998 and failed to fix and therefore allowed their customers to take the cost when these customers did nothing but trust. I don't accept it like you do, that buying, repairing, cars , that this company knowingly sells them with such an expensive repair after they know it exists when the warranty ends. I just took a trip home to Alberta, and my brother-in-law picked me up at the airport in his Subaru. I mentioned to him that he needed to repair his front windshield from a crack that went across. He said, "I've got a head gasket issue, so not sure I'm fixing it we can't afford it". This is just so wrong and we need to support each other. Well....I'm sure you'll get far with that attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 there are decades of posts and DIY tutorials by me on how to avoid the EJ25, i've probably been one of the most prevalent EJ25 coaches on this forum, if you infered i was defending Subaru, okay, it matters not. If you are prone to getting this bent and abrasive over certain issues then it would be best for you to purchase accordingly. Do more research and lean in on high capacity people who know the platform you're considering buying. EJ25 HG's were no secret in 2008, they were 12 years in production. I think a fuller understanding would help move forward with this repair negotation too but it looks like you favor the-squeaky-wheel-gets-the-oil approach, which has a resaonable success rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryl Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 (edited) Grossgary, most people purchase their cars by, test driving, commercials, what they see on the street, word of mouth, price, etc, and not on a detailed research. I used to buy cars like everyone else, but in the past many years of car racing and being on car sites and understanding cars, I will never do that again, so you really don't need to keep telling me that it's my fault I should have checked into my Subaru...I understand now how stupid purchasing cars like this is, but that doesn't mean I can't hold Subaru responsible for knowingly having this head gasket issue and doing nothing about it and especially because it affects many people who cannot afford that fix when the time comes. I believe that the more we are the people who bring complaints forward., ie, 'the squeaky wheel", it will make car companies more responsible to fix issues faster and to build better cars for everyone. I will look for your posts and DIY tutorials. Edited October 27, 2016 by coryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryl Posted November 9, 2016 Author Share Posted November 9, 2016 Subaru Canada and my dealership have done something truly amazing. Each of them have agreed to put in 1/2 of the cost and are covering my head gasket repair which includes 100% of all parts and labor. I am just totally blown away by this gesture of goodwill. Wow, I truly wasn't expecting that! I was so happy with Subaru today that I left my Evo in the garage and drove my Subaru. They said that the reason they decided to do this, was because I've done more than perfect maintenance, have been a very good customer, and that my extended warranty had recently expired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 good job on all counts. maintenance and being a good customer are helpful indeed. i'm very pracitcal and maintenance/statistics/reliability focused - don't take what i say too personally, like i'm the average car person jabbering. i just try to inform genearl philosophies and helpful approaches that are statistically (not anecdotally) robust, i don't care about individual choices or arguing. "in general" - (big boxes not being very accurate) - the current model for vehicles is constant change and upgrades to satisfy consumers incessant demand for new, bigger, better, gadgets, novelty...for cheap. that isn't the ideal manufacturing approach for reliability. i put a large part of the blame on consumers. i wish companies would change mechanical platforms less often and put more money into robust mechanical systems rather than novelties, trinkets, aesthetics, and stylilng changes. every company would then produce better products. as it is - consumers want that stuff - but they want novelty, styling, new, shiny more, so that's what sells and what gets the attention from internal resources - it has to to survive, compete and build brands. For me, since the market is like that, it's better for me to specialize on Subaru's and know them well so i can make good purchase/maintenance decisions because I know how to get 300,000 reliable inexpensive miles out of them - that's what i care most about. If the market were different or i had uncanny time reserves to learn other manufacturers as well (which is nearly impossible considering how well i know subarus), i might buy differently. but jumping brands ever 4 years or buying one manufacturer just based on public opinion/CR reports wouldn't be nearly as effective for me. it's wise to investigate *any manufacturer*. so many people are ignorant consumers and say "i'm never buying brand XYZ again because of ....." which is a bad philosophy that puts a consumer at a disadvantage. being good at research of any manufacturer - even toyota's and honda's have some scars - is very helpful in the current climate. the interweb makes it easy - if you can rule out the back seat regurgitating anecdotal people you can learn some simple things about which mechanical platforms are better than others. and then again your story reminds us that - doing good maintenance and having relationships with good local shops/people pays off no matter what you choose! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryl Posted November 9, 2016 Author Share Posted November 9, 2016 Well said, Grossgary! I agree with you 100% and is why I own two cars (both 2008) that are like brand new (minus one head gasket issue)...I was actually the second owner on that car and I'm not sure if it was babied like I do with my cars. I also want good dependable vehicles and don't care for all the bells and whistles that others desire. I spend my $'s on protecting and maintaining my vehicles, and is even why I spent two years of my free time getting ACD/AYC relocation kits made for Evo's/Ralliarts...I can take my entire trunk apart with my eyes shut now. People ask me if they should still relocate their hydraulic pumps to the trunk now that Mitsu has extended the warranty. I just don't understand those who can do something relatively inexpensive that will protect a vital component of what makes these cars take those corners so perfectly and also that will protect other expensive components when these pumps fail (and it's a guarantee that these pumps will fail, it's just a matter of when). Often people purchase cars believing that they will get rid of them in 3 or so years, so what do they care. Most of my friends take me car shopping with them because I do understand cars (and I'm a pretty good negotiator too), but I certainly do a more detailed search now on any car that they're interested in...I've learned from my own and other's mistakes for sure. And I am glad that there are people, like you, who become experts on a specific brand so I can pick your brains when needed. I do know so much more about my Evo than I do about my Subaru, but I'm trying to learn. So, I'm going to do the timing belt when the head gasket is being done, but I'm also thinking of getting the second (right) head gasket replaced as well...from what I've been reading on Subarus, it's usually often only the left that fails. Any opinion on that and anything else? And where can I find your tutorials? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 Replace both headgaskets. You'd be hard pressed to find a consensus of highly qualified subaru people to say replace one. Then again if they just offer one side for free - I don't know, maybe you take it? The best repair that the top Subaru people are doing is to resurface the heads and use Turbo EJ25 headgaskets. Some dealers will do that, but a lot of them don't. If you don't do that - you're installing the same failure prone headgasket in the same way it was from the factory but under worse conditions (used block face and heads in a less controlled shop environment instead of assembly environment). Let's take an engine that already blows headgaskets, one that already failed, and install the same gasket under worse conditions....that's not my ideal recipe. Sometimes you need some skin in the game to work with the machine shop who will resurface. Often they'll tell the dealer "We can only warranty a head if it's full valve job, pressure tested, resurfaced" = $500+. And the dealer might balk and say they're not installing a non-warrantied part. Silly but so it goes with big one-size-fits-all systems and protocols. Best to talk to the machien shop yourself and tell them you don't need the heads tested or valve job or warranty on the head - just resurfaced. You don't resurface the heads for "flatness" or "warping" - indeed it's pointless to even check them, these heads "never" warp or crack or have issues. they simply need flatened, remove all high and low spots which they all have (even if they're in spec), and get the proper surface finish. You're in a really new car with presumably very tiny leak and good maintenance - so to that end you could probably get away with the lesser repair if it comes to it. But there are dealers that have resurfaced and installed the better turbo headgaskets. Can probably search and find out who they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryl Posted November 9, 2016 Author Share Posted November 9, 2016 My dealership is splitting the cost of the left head gasket repair with Subaru Canada, so that's where I have to go. I've just sent my friend at the dealership a message asking him to check on the gasket type, and then get the Turbo EJ25 if that's not what they were planning to use. I've also asked him about resurfacing the heads and what's my best route to have this done, because I want to keep this car for a long time to come. They were only planning to do the left head gasket, but I will get both gaskets done, timing belt, and water pump, for $1450 Canadian is my quote. And thanks so much for your input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryl Posted November 10, 2016 Author Share Posted November 10, 2016 Update....I just spoke to my friend at the dealership and he said that the turbo EJ25 gasket won't fit my Impreza 2.5i according to those in the service center. He also said that because they are doing this fix, that if I use anything other than OEM they won't be able to warranty it. The warranty on this gasket repair is 20,000kms or one year, so not very long anyways. They will check out the heads and see if they need to be machined or not and if it's deemed that it's needed, other than their prep, they will send it out to a machine shop. They will also check out the water pump for me, but doesn't believe it will need replacing...he said it's rare that these water pumps go on Subarus, and usually only when the car has been overheating which is not in my case, "or you're very unlucky". They will be checking out my thermostat but they believe that won't need replacing other than the gasket, and that they will replace any worn hoses or belts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt167 Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 (edited) Since the repair is getting done by Subaru, they do things their own way.. they don't use gaskets the parts books say won't fit, they won't machine heads unless they are not within spec. ect.. As to the Turbo gaskets. Subaru developed a new gasket for the N/A that was in full use by 2009 IIRC. That gasket is what they would use.. The Turbo gasket will fit and work, but it does not match the specs required by manufacture so really it won't fit 'correctly'.. Turbo gasket is thicker which does effect the internal dimensions of the engine ( compression ratio, quench ect... ) It won't have any noticible effect on drivability but Subaru can't say that it is 'correct'. Edited November 10, 2016 by matt167 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 As soon as they say they're testing the heads that shows their hand, preferring expediancy over the best available economical repair. the heads should always be resurface, they don't test Ra in that shop: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_roughness Not too mention high/low spots and fire rings too.... Six Star gaskets are common gaskets as well. Factory head gaskets are very low failure rates so not a big deal, take the free gaskets, but worth asking since it's almost funny to install the same gaskets that are already failing from the factory. 'Hey this gasket is failing on factory vehicles, would you like to have one?" Most dealers aren't familiar with parts interchangeability, so it's no surprise they don't know. A few will install non-stock gaskets, but those are rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryl Posted November 11, 2016 Author Share Posted November 11, 2016 That's the problem...if they say it doesn't fit their specs then they won't warranty it. I understood that concept when I purchased my Optima red top battery. The place I purchased this from said it doesn't meet the specs for my car. I contacted Optima and they said that it certainly does, so I purchased it and it's been perfect in my car for years now. If something isn't OEM then it will never meet specs. That said, this is a major head gasket repair and not a battery, so if they say it doesn't meet their specs and therefore won't warranty it, then I'm between a rock and a hard place. I've looked over the EJ25 gasket and I would certainly go with this gasket if I was having a private shop do the work for me. I can't even imagine having two head gaskets leaking as I drive off the dealership lot and having no warranty as they say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryl Posted November 11, 2016 Author Share Posted November 11, 2016 (edited) Grossgary, it looks like I may need to go with their OEM gasket because if something bad happens somewhere in the install, then I'm in trouble with their warranty. Thanks for the info and I know I need to have the heads resurfaced because I want them as smooth as possible because at this point I have so much money invested. I'm going to speak with the service manager tomorrow and see if they will split the cost on having the heads machined which is now what I want, regardless what their assessment is. What am I looking at price wise to have them machined? Edited November 11, 2016 by coryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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