Head gasket potential issue

[matt167]

Local to me machine shop does them for $20 a head. He used to work out of the back of a Napa but now works out of an AG shop

[coryl]

I just dropped off my Subaru to the dealership which was kind of stressful knowing all that's going to be done to it. After thinking things over, I decided to replace the water pump as well, and told my friend that I want the heads machined regardless of what they find. I didn't even ask price, because I've got so much money into this car right now that it clearly is irrelevant...I just want this fix to go as good as can be.

Thank you, Grossgary and everyone else for your help.

[coryl]

Update...

After pulling the engine today, this is what was found...

Two dropped valve guides on the right side cylinder head. Cylinder head valves/seals with machine shop and resurfacing...$1850.

Exhaust donut gasket seized/corroded...$105.

Rear main seal leaking oil...$100.

1 of 3 timing belt tensioner pullys noisy...$90.

Upper rad hoses getting weak...$150.

Timing cover hardware corroding...(no price noted).

Water pump is good no need for replacement is mentioned.

With timing belt and second head gasket, my final cost with my free head gasket repair will still be over $4G. OMG!!!

[matt167]

They had to get some $$ back somehow you know.. Valve guides dropping isn't common, but it happens. I would wonder if it actually happened to yours. Those parts are cheap but labor intensive, so high dollar profit for the shop/shops involved... $105 for a donut gasket. that's laughable. It's 2 bolts, and a $20 part. If you break the spring bolts they are not that expensive even from a dealer.. $105 for a radiator hose,  yeah really silly there.

 

Consider this, By them 'covering' one HG, they are agreeing to remove and replace engine, so you are getting a several hundred dollar discount. I'm sure they flat rate the time, but I'm not sure how many hrs flat rate it is for your model to R&R the engine. It's probably like 4hrs though.

Edited December 2, 2016 by matt167

[idosubaru]

Resurface can be unfortunately tricky - should be $70 - $150 for both heads depending on your area.

 

That said here is how it works. Machine shop policy:

 

"We won't warranty the heads without a full check, clean, valve job, presssre test = $700".

 

For DIY it's no big deal, you just decline the warranty because it's not needed, those heads never fail in that way so it's like having a warranty on something that never fails , it's pointless like the lug nut - it'll never randomly fail. I've done it a zillion times, it's normal and common. Like denying the additional 3 year warranty on something benign at a store check out line.

You pay $150 and you're done.

 

Since you're at the mercy of the shop one of two things will happen:

 

A. They Play nice and just get the resurface because that's what customer wants and if they have any sense they know it's wise due to surface finish (ra, google it), and offers them a better end product and service. It's a win-win no brainer.

 

B. Not play nice. They just regurgitate the machine shop and give you the option of $700 or not at all. This may be more likely if these are in play:

 

1. Worried about down time, turn around, profit

2. Some professionals don't like being asked or given suggestions how to do something outside their normal protocols. "Who the $@+^| he think he is, I do 10 headgaskets a week" mentality.

3. They don't like customer or service opportunity.

 

You could call and find out what shop Subaru uses - they'll have one shop they send heads to. I've done it, to know who locally is familiar with Subaru heads and such. Then just call the machine shop yourself and ask if you can just get a resurface or if Subaru ever allows that or if "warranty" is ever a deal breaker for Subaru.

Edited December 2, 2016 by grossgary

[ThosL]

Unfortunately Mr. Goodwrench has their customers by the balljoint$ and they bank on nervous Nellie customers to say "go ahead", I'll put it on plastic.  

 

Sounds like multiples of what the job should be, and you have many options; other estimates; change out the engine; trade the car or sell as is, etc..

[1997reduxe]

my question is if you obviously have had a lot of car experience etc why on earth are you even taking it to a dealership all this time? i  mean couldnt you have found someone in canada who's like a specialty shop or hobbyist who loves working on subes?

you would have saved already at least half the money and hassle youve incurred.

i jst bought a 95 and the original owner kept all the maintenance records.

i was looking through them because the second owner said the timing belt was changed, which it was, when at some point the water pump and thermostat or some combo of went.

so im looking at this repair record from a dealer, and it boild down to they (in 2008) charged this woman 1400 bucks for diagnosing the situation and replacing water pump, t-stat, belt and one(!) pulley. oh a number of other small things too, but im looking at it and im thinking one pulley? i mean come on...but at least its a 95 and i can get kit done and by now the motor and any possible cooling dilemma are long gone. that was idaho and this is texas.

my point is i know one guy he works on nothing but subes he'll do a timing belt kit for 160 labor.

you can get an aisin kit on rockauto for 220.

theres another guy down the street from me wholl do the kit for 250 labor.

whats to worry?

any big corporation has lots of problems and it really depends on the quality of the mechanic you happen to get. just like small shops. you have to cultivate the proper relationship.

Edited December 4, 2016 by 1997reduxe

[coryl]

^^^1997reduxe, I had a full aftermarket warranty up until last year, so why wouldn't I take it to the dealership? They've done the recalls and one valve cover for $300, radiator flushes, and since I bring in my own Mobil1 it costs me around $20+tax for an oil change which is cheaper than any other oil change place I know of plus they give me a free car wash while I'm there. It's the reason of my relationship and taking the car to the dealer that got Subaru Canada and my dealership to split the cost of my head gasket repair and not going down the block to my local shop. They found the head gasket leak at my last oil change...so in my situation they were doing the "free" head gasket replacement, so while they were removing the engine in my thinking it would be cheaper to replace some other items and then have that warranty with my dealership too. My friend at the dealership sent me pics of my engine out of the car...I'm now between a rock and a hard place and especially because before I knew the issue, I'd had some new rocker panels put on the car, a door with some rust at the bottom repaired, a new front lip, and new Stoptech cryro treated/slotted rotors with Hawk racing pads, plus new tires.

I do get what you're saying, and on my old 1998 Sebring I always took it to a local shop down the block from me where the guy only worked on Chrysler cars...that car never went to the dealership for anything as there was no point because I certainly understand the inflated prices...you're talking to the converted but it doesn't help me now. 

[coryl]

Matt167, you help me play on the conspiracy theory in my head, and if I didn't know quite a few of the guys at the dealership I'd probably be thinking the same but I'm not ruling it out just yet because I don't personally know the guy who did the final diagnosing on the dropped valves.

Grossgary, the warranty from the machine shop was not mentioned, although I may be misunderstanding you/dealership...I do have the name of the machine shop and you are right, they only use one. How much do you think the time/cost would be for the resurfacing of this engine if the dealership was not involved? I'm not understanding on a well maintained car how this even happened...I had absolutely no symptoms of anything...no noted loss of power, no CEL, no overheating, no rough starting, no stalling, no nothing...the car drove like it did the day I purchased it (which then gets me thinking about Matt167's conspiracy theory).

ThosL, I agree it's an inflated price...I'm going to speak with the service manager and see if they can somehow reduce cost for me now.

I'll keep you updated, and thanks for your help and opinions.

[coryl]

Update...

 

My service manager was amazing helping me further, and with everything that was done on this car, both head gaskets plus machined (thanks Grossgary), the dropped leads in R cylinder head repaired, timing belt, and all the other things added that I'd mentioned above, my final cost with 13% tax in was only $2700 Canadian. I thank Subaru Canada and my dealership friends and service manager...I'm just blown away with gratitude.

 

Tomorrow I go back into the dealership...noticed a drop of ATF in the snow under the car today when I was shovelling. I checked the fluid level and it's very low...cold level is below the low cold level mark. With everything that's been done on this car, where would the likely place be where it's leaking?  

[DaveT]

If you are not seeing lots of drips under the car, the most likely thing to check is the vacuum modulator. I'm assuming this car has one. The diaphragm gets old, and a crack begins to allow atf to be sucked into the manifold vacuum. It can be very slow, and gradually get worse. Should not be an expensive repair.

[coryl]

Trans cooler line was leaking at the transmission...$86. Hopefully that's the last leaking thing on this car for a while....it's been a long haul with a good outcome since my initial post, "Head gasket potential issue". Thanks to everyone here for your opinions, help, and support along the way.

 

I don't know if anyone knows the answers, but because it was worrying me when I found the leak, although I didn't have any transmission issues...

When you're dip stick shows a level 1/2 way to the tip, beneath the low cold level (with cold ATF), approximately how much ATF has been lost? My understanding is that there's around 9.5L of ATF in the system, so with how much loss would you then expect to show any transmission issues?

Thanks!

[idosubaru]

no big deal, there's a ton of fluid in that car.  just top it off a little bit at a time, it doesn't take much to get it to come up the dipstick.   i filled from from below the lowest mark (below cold) to a little above the lowest HOT mark last night and it was less than a quart.   

[coryl]

Good to know that I didn't need to worry with probably less than a quart lost...my friend said that as long as I can see fluid on the dipstick I'm OK to drive it to get it fixed. When you've had an engine removed and so many things fixed on a car, it's so important to keep an eye on what's dripping beneath your car, and to check all fluid levels. I'm now going to keep a very close eye on everything for the next while.  Thank you everyone/Grossgary!

Edited February 22, 2017 by coryl

[coryl]

 Was doing some reading on HG issues/prevention because I have so much money invested into this car. I found a conversation on preventing further HG issues. One guy who was a Subaru mechanic suggested to have the head bolts retorqued.  He said, "one point back in the 80s Subaru would actually pay the dealer mechanics to retorque the cylinder head bolts at 1000 miles"...seems to be common knowledge and he said that this was a period of time where there weren't HG issues...I can't find anything to confirm this from Subaru but this is why I'm wondering. He also said that this was a period of time where there were 8 bolts instead of 6. Anyone have an opinion on retorquing these bolts after HG replacement? Is this a possible fix for HG problems?

Edited June 6, 2018 by coryl

[Mike104]

I think is a potential problem by retorquing them.

[Sapper 157]

8 hours ago, coryl said:

 Was doing some reading on HG issues/prevention because I have so much money invested into this car. I found a conversation on preventing further HG issues. One guy who was a Subaru mechanic suggested to have the head bolts retorqued.  He said, "one point back in the 80s Subaru would actually pay the dealer mechanics to retorque the cylinder head bolts at 1000 miles"...seems to be common knowledge and he said that this was a period of time where there weren't HG issues...I can't find anything to confirm this from Subaru but this is why I'm wondering. He also said that this was a period of time where there were 8 bolts instead of 6. Anyone have an opinion on retorquing these bolts after HG replacement? Is this a possible fix for HG problems?

That torquing procedure was recommended for the EA81. And to my knowledge, it was not a retorque in the sense that they backed off the head nuts to zero torque and them torqued them. It was simply going over them again and making sure they were still at 57 ft lbs. I have done this before on my car but it has never moved the nuts at all. I wouldn’t recommend it for the newer cars, since there is a warning in the manuals not to go beyond the specified torque range or you risk snapping a head bolt.

this procedure probably had little to do with the HG reliability of the EA81. It had more to do with the EA81’s 9 head fasteners, compared to EJ series 6 fasteners. (I think it’s 6 anyways... correct me if I’m wrong) Also, it had lower compression and was a smaller engine.  

Edited June 6, 2018 by Sapper 157

[Subaru Scott]

That actually dates back to the wet sleeve engines of the early 70s. It was pretty important to get that done, because it did make a difference on them.

The wet sleeve was a cool idea. Worn cylinder walls meant you just popped in another set. Then they found out that they never wore anyway except from heavy abuse.

They had selective copper crush rings that sealed the base of the sleeve. If you didn’t get those set just right, you would have head gasket issues. Huge pain in the a$$.

The later 1400s went to dry sleeves, and that cured Subaru’s head gasket issues... til... y’know...

[GeneralDisorder]

You can't re-torque them. The final value for the bolts is not a torque value - it's a degree value. So how are you going to check this?

The dealer uses the wrong gaskets on these engines. They should be using the 642 or 770 gasket.

Expect failure again within about 40k miles. Nothing you can do about it. 

GD

[vtwinjunkie]

On 9/5/2016 at 9:35 AM, Fairtax4me said:

The other likely place for an oil leak on that engine is the cam carrier seal. There's a plate about 3/4" thick that bolts to the cylinder head that holds the camshaft in place, and the valve cover bolts to that. The seal between the carrier and the head is just RTV and will often start leaking oil somewhere around 100k miles. Sometimes sooner. Again though, this tends to be a manageable and very slow leak.

I think mine is leaking on a car I just bought used. 2005 legacy with175k miles. I plan to dig in to see for sure in the next few weeks.

Can this rtv goo be replaced without removing the heads? I wasnt sure how the little plug covers were held in place.....

 

Mine too has a small head gasket leak, but I am willing to bet most of my leakage is from that cam seal. (which still isnt that bad because the oil never makes it to the ground in the form of a puddle.

[el_freddo]

@GeneralDisorder, those head gasket part numbers, are they Subaru part numbers?

Guess what's leaking on our liberty that had it's HGs replaced early last year??

Cheers

Bennie

[Mike104]

11044AA642 is the MLS non-turbo Head Gasket

11044AA770 is the MLS turbo Head Gasket.

Those are Subaru part numbers.  I believe the original non-MLS gasket was 11044AA633 that was prone to failure.

 

Edited June 7, 2018 by Mike104

[GeneralDisorder]

16 hours ago, el_freddo said:

@GeneralDisorder, those head gasket part numbers, are they Subaru part numbers?

Guess what's leaking on our liberty that had it's HGs replaced early last year??

Cheers

Bennie

Yep. Mike's got it. The 642 gasket is from the '04 to '07 EJ255/257 and the 770 is from the 8+ EJ257

GD

[el_freddo]

Thanks GD.  Looks like I ordered the dead gaskets and fitted them

Cheers

Bennie

[vtwinjunkie]

On 6/6/2018 at 11:33 AM, GeneralDisorder said:

You can't re-torque them. The final value for the bolts is not a torque value - it's a degree value. So how are you going to check this?

The dealer uses the wrong gaskets on these engines. They should be using the 642 or 770 gasket.

Expect failure again within about 40k miles. Nothing you can do about it. 

GD

Head gasket failure every 40k miles? am I reading this correctly?  If so why not just keep driving it even if its seeping a bit, until it gets to a point that they absolutely need to be done (When the oil put in between oil changes exceeds 4 qts or so)

 

I have been driving my 2005 outback 2.5i (Slightly seeping but original head gaskets) with 125k miles on it and I just keep an eye on it...

Just picked up another 2005 legacy 2.5i with 175k (still tracking down exact location of leaks but none of which actually drip to the ground) and Im pretty sure that it has original head gaskets on it as well. 

Edited June 8, 2018 by vtwinjunkie