Is it a thermostat problem?

[Subruman]

Hi everyone,

 

I have a 1996 outback, and it's giving me a weird problem.  When my check engine lights turn on, my temp gauge reads fine, on the halfway mark.  But when the check engine lights is off, the temp gauge goes up pass the halfway mark.  And the check engine lights goes on and off at random start ups.  I don't really know what's going on.  Before this happened, I worked on the timing belt, replaced the water pump and thermostat.  Could it be the thermostat that is causing this weird readings?  And what about the check engine light?  

 

With the check engine light, I was thinking that it was probably from the engine?  When replacing the timing belt, on the first try, it didn't turn on, but I kept cranking it and cranking it.  Then on the second try, I think I might have forced the alignment, at one point, and turned the shaft when it was really stiff.  ... and possibly damaged something inside the engine.  Would that throw a check engine light?  

And one other issue I would like to address, since I am here.  Earlier today, I replaced the resonator pipe and the muffler.  bought the package from ebay.  they totally shipped wrong parts to me.  what a disappointment.  The whole package is suppose to be black, but instead, they sent the silver muffler.  And when I put them together, the two wouldn't not align.  They are twisted at least 1 and 1/2 inches from each other.  And they said it fits many 1996-1997 subarus: outback, impreza, legacy.  ... And then I noticed, there are condensation dripping out of the connection between the resonator pipe and the Catalytic pipe.  Is it just because it wasn't tight enough?  But I have screwed completely as far as I can screw (up to the smooth part of the bolt, where the spring would be).  

 

As of right now, my outback is in the garage with no muffler. .... :'(

 

Sorry, this is alot, but any help would be appreciated.  Thanks in advance.  Thank you.  

Edited September 10, 2016 by Subruman

[DaveT]

Need to read the codes that are setting the check engine light.

 

I've never read about or seen anything that ties the check engine light and temperature together, so probably coincidences?

 

Not getting *all* of the air out of the cooling system can cause troubles with overheating.  Over normal temp while low on coolant can damage the headgaskets, so watch that like a hawk.

 

Need to know what size engine it has, so that one of the experts on those years / models can verify if the engine is interference or non interference. 

 

Turned what shaft?

 

Maybe the exhaust seal that goes between those flanges isn't thick enough?  Aftermarket exhausts can be iffy alignment wise, and all.  Is it a known good reputation system, or el cheapo ebay special?

[wtdash]

HI and Welcome,

Yeah...there were 2 engines in '96 2.2 SOHC used in all 5-speed transmission and 2.5 DOHC used in all Automatics.....the 2.2 is considered the better engine and it's a lot less likely to have the head gasket issues.

 

It sounds like to me you need to 'burp' the cooling system. ...search on here on 'how tos'.

 

And get the CEL code read....that's key to getting accurate help.

 

I doubt the exhaust you bought is universal to fit all those models. Pretty much '95-'99 Legacy Wagon and sedan are probably compatible, but not w/an Impreza.

Attached is a from a '97 Legacy Outback - fits both the 2.2 and 2.5. There should be  'donut' gasket that seals where the spring connection is used. If it's not fitting correctly it'll leak.

Edited September 10, 2016 by wtdash

[1 Lucky Texan]

CEL could easily be related to the exhaust work if there's leakage or disassembly - as said above, get the code.

 

only other thing I'm gonna add is, the thermostat needs to be OEM style;

 

 

[Subruman]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the replies.

Dave, I meant the crank shaft. Well, my car just gave out an engine light today and had the codes pulled. What I got is a P0301 and P0303. I am really thinking that it is from the time I was working on the timing belt and I probably damaged the valves on the cylinders. After doing the timing belt, the engine did sound a little chipped or rattle inside. It didn't sound like it was before. Now that I know the check engine lights are cylinder misfires, I just need to know how to find out what the real issue is. I was watching vids on youtube, and one of the guy was saying that if there is an internal problem, the engine would have to be opened and rebuilt? If it's just a valve, for example, can I just replace that? How many ways, or some good methods to check what it really is the cause?

wtdash, yeah, I bought my exhaust kit from 1A too. It's similar to the one you posted, but mine had only one resonator bulb on the pipe. And the hanger bar just pointed straight out, unlike my old one. It was a weird pipe they sent me. I should have gotten the one you posted. But the problem was they sent me a silver muffler, and the muffler was just a cylinder instead of the bigger oval shaped one, like the one they had on their image. And the two would not connect at all if everything is set properly. Now, I had to compile proofs of part numbers, and images, and information to sent them. It just takes a lot of time going back and forth when I really need the car as soon as possible. ...

Lucky, I did my timing belt replacement a while back, and I don't remember well, but I think the one I bought was the shorter one. .... and it was one of the more expensive option they had too! Autozone didn't carry the Subaru brand. ... Was it a mistake?  Also the timing belt kit I bought off ebay had the water pump looked kind of cheap. .... I remember the blade mechanism was a little different from the original one, and it wasn't as deep into the compartment either.  

Right now, I have put back the old exhaust, and had to improvise with metal fittings to fit them back together. .... most of the old one eventually became one long continuous pipe with flexible fittings to connect them.    Also, when my resonator pipe broke at the connection where it joins with the catalytic pipe, I just put a metal fitting over the pipe, and the other end into the resonator.   Could exhaust back pressure cause the CEL too, if there is such a thing?  Can exhaust ever go back into the engine if there is any place that gets narrowed by the catalytic pipe?  Just curious. 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Subruman

[DaveT]

Exhaust back pressure could be raised by a constriction in the pipe / plugged cat.  Smaller ID pipe than stock.   A bunch of splices won't do anything like that.

 

On my EJ engines, I have only used Subaru belts and idlers / tensioners.  On my EA82s I have only used Gates belts, and rebuild the idlers.

 

I used a Subaru water pump on my 01 Forester.  NAPA best quality on my EA82s. 

 

Have not had problems with the above.  I have seen el-cheapo water pumps that have lousy impellers that couldn't possibly be as effective as the OEM or NAPA ones.  I would not risk using one of those.  Only OEM or Stant best thermostats.

I'm not sure if you can turn the cranckshaft hard enough to hurt the valves, as I never tried it   Maybe with a wrench handle extender, or bug breaker bar?  Someone else may know on here.   If you have to replace a valve, you have to remove the head/s from the block.  If this engine has run over normal temp while low on coolant, it may need head gaskets sooner or later.
 

[idosubaru]

WHICH ENGINE?  is it a 1996 manual trans or automatic?

Were you chasing any overheating issues prior to the timing belt change? 

Why did you change the timing belt?

 

The check engine light and overheating are likely not directly related at all.

 

1. verify timing belt alignment for the cylinder misfires - those are both on the same side of the engine so one cam being off could do it.

2. burp the cooilng system - your overheating is due to air in the system. 

(unless you did the water pump replacement because you were chasing an overheating issue...)

3.  96 shouldn't have a new style tensioner but if it did - you pulled the pin on it right?

[Subruman]

I'm not sure if you can turn the cranckshaft hard enough to hurt the valves

 

 

Dave, I hope this is true.  haha.  Turning the crankshaft, I did use a pretty big ratchet and used a pretty good amount of force.... stupid me, I know. .... 

 

And my coolant has never been low, unless something isn't working like they should in getting it to the engine.  Isn't that what the water pump suppose to do?  or is it just to help return the fluid back to the radiator?  And on water pump, the replacement I put in was the GMD brand from ebay.  I did some research and they said it was .... reliable?.... But actually, I don't even know if it's the water pump causing the higher temp for sure.  Just guessing that it could be from what I had done prior to the problem. ... 

 

 

WHICH ENGINE?  is it a 1996 manual trans or automatic?

Were you chasing any overheating issues prior to the timing belt change? 

Why did you change the timing belt?

 

The check engine light and overheating are likely not directly related at all.

 

1. verify timing belt alignment for the cylinder misfires - those are both on the same side of the engine so one cam being off could do it.

2. burp the cooilng system - your overheating is due to air in the system. 

(unless you did the water pump replacement because you were chasing an overheating issue...)

3.  96 shouldn't have a new style tensioner but if it did - you pulled the pin on it right?

 

 

Grossgary, On checking my VIN, I just learned that it is a 97 Subaru.  Automatic.  On the title, it says a 96.... weird.  

Well, I changed the timing belt because the Sub was lacking in picking up speed from a stop.  And it doesn't have power to go uphill at all.  Even after the timing belt change, going up hill is still slow, but it does have a little more kick on a flat straight way though.  Just a tad bit.  Probably, not enough to justify all these new problems it brought though. .... It didn't have a heating issue before.  

When replacing it, I made triple sure, that everything was aligned: the cams, the crankshaft to their respective marks.  I'll have to recheck timing again when I have the time.  

When you said cooling system, you mean the radiator right?  In that case, I did that too.  It won't hurt doing it again, would it?  

And yes, I did pull the pin on the tensioner.  haha.  ... One question about the tensioner.  How many times can you press it?  I didn't have the right tools for the job, so I just used a C-clamp, and a block of wood.  Everytime I turned, the block turned with it, and thus turning the rod.  And when it is completely pressed, the pin holes didn't align.  It took me about 3-4 times, pressing it and de-pressing it, to get it aligned.  

[Subruman]

97 Subaru Legacy Outback Automatic 2.5L.

[DaveT]

The water pump circulates the coolant through the engine, and though the radiator when the thermostat opens. It does nothing to draw water from the tank. The coolantern is drawn into the radiator from the tank during the cooldown from normal operating temperature to ambient temperature, if the system has no leaks.

[1 Lucky Texan]

bad knock sensor will rob power, so will a clogged exhaust or cat. conv. (vacuum gauge test might show clogged exhaust)

 

if you compress the tensioner VERY SLOWLY - you may be able to do it several times. kinda sounds like you just cranked away on it and that can destroy the seal inside.

Edited September 19, 2016 by 1 Lucky Texan

[idosubaru]

Slowly compress tensioner

 

 

Just before its compressed simply use a small tool to insert into eyehole and turn the pin to the desired orientation. Adjust as needed and once you're close you can insert a pin at an angle to hold it in the proper orientation. That way it's repeatable one time every time.

[idosubaru]

Where did you read the VIN number?. I've seen plenty of subarus with replaced body parts and mismatched VINS.

[Subruman]

Dave, I know my car leaks.... something.  I don't know if it's oil, or coolant though.  But I will have to check under the engine to check where the leak is coming from.  I just hope it's not a head gasket problem.  And just being curious, would that cause any misfires or lack of power by any chance?  There isn't any blue or white or black smoke coming out of the exhaust. ... 

 

Grossgary, I found the VIN number on the windshield and on the body under the hood.  Both are the same.  But I think both can be tempered with easily if someone really wanted to.  ... 

 

I have been pretty busy lately, but right now, I have been thinking about doing a compression test.  I remember the last time I did it, I was having a really hard time screwing the tube into the spark plug socket.  Also, on my vehicle, I have to jack up my engine pretty far up just to barely take out the spark plugs, so that was a real bummer too.  especially the back two are a pain.  ... Something that prevented me from wanting to... just try. ... 

 

Lucky Texan, I heard about the knock sensor stealing power.  And I checked it, and ... well, honestly, I couldn't tell if it's good or bad.  It looks pretty good to me.  No cracks or anything.  The contacts are shiny and clean.  .. but the surrounding area in that hole was filled with debris, nuts, and leafs though. ... 

 

PS.  Just curious, can I do both the compression test and the leak down test with the leak down tester?  or do I have to get them separately?  Thanks.  

Edited September 26, 2016 by Subruman

[DaveT]

If it's leaking coolant, you'll notice [or should be noticing due to regular level checking] that coolant is going away.

Small leaks [internal or external] of oil or coolant have no effect on power, or anything related.  Internal leaks would have to be pretty bad to cause noticeable effects.

Visible smoke takes a *large* leak,  Very large, into the intake or the like.  You would notice oil or coolant going away very quickly if you had a visible smokescreen going on. 

I've seen headgasket leaks to the outside of the engine, that are very small - you can get away with running them as long as you monitor the coolant level closely to avoid running low.  The beginning headgasket failure of coolant to combustion chamber, the gasses are pushed into the coolant, not the other way around.  No noticeable effect on performance.  Not until the car is essentially undriveable for anything more than the time it takes to overheat.

 

Visual inspection of sensors is far from a complete evaluation of function.  They can look perfect and be bad.