2004 Forester oil seepage - Dealer vs. Mechanic?!

[ksignor]

Thanks in advance to those of you reading this post...

 

I've got a 'new to me' 04 Forester I just bought from a local Subaru Dealer, Performance Subaru in Chapel Hill, NC.

 

It does have some character that I failed to notice prior to my purchase.  A missing fuel door release handle cover, missing rear head rests, loose console latch.  Ah,blinded by the excitement of being a potential Subaru owner!

 

I had a week to get an independent inspection, post-purchase.  The dealer said they would fix any significant issues, but are confident in their own thorough, in-house inspection.  So, I just had a highly respected foreign car shop in town complete an inspection (Auto Logic).

 

Auto Logic caught all of the aforementioned character flaws that I did not notice, nor which were pointed out to me during my extended, very indecisive negotiation with the dealer upon purchase.  So, win for Auto Logic.  

 

They also discovered a few other issues:

 

1. The head gaskets are showing signs of oil seepage.  An issue that they said is not urgent, but will need to be addressed down the road, as expected with Subarus.

 

2. The spark plug wells have oil in them.  They are saying we must replace the spark plugs and spark plug valve cover gaskets (estimate $400-$500).

 

3. Battery is low with respect to ccas (440 of 550) and has the potential to fail in cold weather.  I realize it's just a battery, but still worth noting in my opinion.

 

The conundrum:  The dealer says the first thing their mechanics look for are leaky head gaskets since it's a known Subaru issue.  Had they seen anything described above when they originally inspected, particularly with head gaskets, it would have failed as a candidate for their lot and would have gone straight to auction.  

 

They are also saying the battery was tested in the same manner the shop did and it was not problematic.  The Dealer Mechanic said to stop by to discuss these issues, but I am skeptical of the outcome.  I hope they will take an actual, physical look again, but their lack of enthusiasm is concerning, and they remarked that I already got a 'big discount' (original sticker price, all told after dealer fees, registration, taxes, etc. was ~$7500, I ended up at $6600).  

 

So, Battle of the Mechanics.  How would you recommend one who is uneducated with respect to all things automotive and mechanical proceed in this situation?

 

Thanks in advance!

Kari

[AdventureSubaru]

How many miles on it?

 

For this generation of subaru, I would be amazed if I didn't see head gasket seepage as this motor does it all the time. As long as it isn't consuming coolant you should be fine. Even so, if the head gaskets have never bwent replaced they will need it sometime. Read up on how to catch it early and fix it right. Done properly they will last about forever. My wife's former 2000 outback lasted past 362000 miles and was sold still running strong. As for the other stuff, it's a 12 year old car. Find one on car-part.come or row52.come and just buy your missing pieces to dress it back up cosmetically.

[matt167]

Battery manufactures consider a battery running 80% of their capacity a good battery. So 440 out of 500 cca, that is right at 80%

[golucky66]

1) Agreed with AdventureSubaru, that engine almost always has an oil leak from the HG. Long as it doesn't overheat and no coolant coming out. You're fine

 

2) Yeah. That's a bad valve cover gasket... Do you need to replace the spark plugs with the gasket? Not unless there's been so much oil sitting on the plugs that the oil has slowly seeped into the plugs.

 

3) Battery is testing low. But that's relative to how it's being tested. The "Right" way to test a battery is to put a "toaster" on it and physically load test it. Most of the electronic testers do an ok job of it. But aren't always accurate. 

If you don't want to pay them the $100-150 for the battery. Buy one from napa and put it in yourself for $60

[ksignor]

Thanks for all the input - love this forum.  

 

Ah yes the mileage - 108,000, AdventureSubaru.  And thanks for the links - just what I was looking for.

 

Supposedly the mechanic fully loaded the battery, presumably how you are describing, golucky66.  He didn't describe the 'toaster', but he said it wasn't the sort of test you'd get a your local AutoZone, either.  It's coming out low on cold crank amps, specifically.  As they said 'it could be fine for a long time, or it may not start in cold weather'.

 

And yes, the mechanic suggested replacing spark plugs *and* gaskets...

 

Meeting with the dealer tomorrow, and anticipating I'll still have two different stories:  'Spark plugs and gaskets are fine, we checked all that during our inspection' (Dealer) vs. 'You need to replace the spark plugs and the valve cover gaskets. There's oil in/around the spark plugs' (Inspected by independent mechanic).

 

Any silver bullet to know who's telling the truth?!  Other than saying 'yea, prove it to me....'?  

[golucky66]

HG is likely to be seeping oil. Probably fine for a good amount of mileage. 

Valve cover gasket. Also likely because it's a pretty common leak.

And battery, you could probably hold off especially being in NC...

[DaveT]

A decent quality battery is good for about 5 years under ideal conditions, simply due to the chemistry.  I deal conditions are battery temperatures in the 70s.  No discharge cycles, and maintained at the proper float voltage.  Anything other than these conditions takes capacity / useful life off.  and it is very unlikely that any battery in use in a car is being maintained under ideal conditions.

 

Check the charging voltage, and the resting voltage.  If they are normal, and you don't know the age, well, then its a gamble, since the test shows it as less than rated capacity.  A battery at 0 degrees F is about 1/4 of it's rated capacity at 70 degrees, so it will be sketchy starting in cold weather if it's not within it's useful life span, or has been degraded by non ideal conditions.

 

Headgasket seeping at that mileage, typical.   It is due for timing belt and idlers replacement soon.  Oil leaking from rocker covers, not a surprise.  

 

All of this is what I expect from a car of this age and miles.  When I buy a new used car, I expect to put as much as $1000 into getting it into top shape, as it's unlikely that once the previous owner decided to replace it, it's unlikely that they kept the maintenance up as if they were going to continue running it for 10 years.

Keep a close eye on the coolant level and amount of air in the upper radiator hose to avoid cooling system problems, or catch them before they become worse.

[ksignor]

Thank you again, golucky66.  That seems to be the most logical (but humble) conclusion to me, as well.  I'll provide a status report/dealer response for the curious at heart tomorrow. 

[ksignor]

Dave T, points well taken, thank you.  All good things to keep in mind.  And, as AdventureSubaru said, it's a 12-year-old =]  

 

A question worth asking at this stage is, what are the consequences of *not* changing spark plugs/gasket covers if there is, in fact, oil that has crept into these parts?  I've read about misfiring, but is this more of an inconvenience if/when the engine fails, or is this actually risking further damage if not addressed?

[golucky66]

I mean... Leaking oil into the plugs really won't cause engine damage. Just a misfire once it gets bad enough. Then you'd have to limp it to a shop. 

Really it comes down to, how bad is it leaking? And if not too bad, would you rather have the convenience of getting it fixed when you're schedule is free, or when it's broken down and has to get limped to the shop?

 

Not saying you need to go a certain way, just stating options.

[MR_Loyale]

I am guessing they didn't tell you if the timing belt had been done. The interval, and someone correct me if I am wrong, is 105k miles.

 

Folks usually sell the car rather than deal with the timing belt replacement cost labor and such. I hope it was done before they sold you the car. Might want to ask. If not, you should plan on doing it asap as a failure could cost lots for engine replacement.

[ksignor]

Next, but not final, update:

 

A different Subaru dealer offered to take a look beneath the chassis and commented that it looked super.  There was what looked like an old seepage stain at one point, but he explained when they see leaks that are a problem, they are dripping oil and it's everywhere.  What he saw was practically nothing, he said he'd have bought the car himself.  

 

Yet another dealer has offered his opinion as well, and he will be physically pulling the spark plugs out to investigate.  Stay tuned!  Hopefully this process is helpful to another skeptical car buyer down the road.

[ksignor]

MR_Loyale, replacing the timing belt at 105,000 was mentioned to me by several individuals yesterday.  Thank you for the reminder.

 

According to the CARFAX, drive belts were replaced at a 30,000 mile interval service at 88,000 miles.  The last major 30,000 service was completed in April 2016 at 104,000 and unfortunately no timing belt.  What was performed:  oil change, tire rot/bal, engine air filter, fuel system service, spark plugs replaced, cabin filter, cooling system service, front/rear diff. service, transmission service, brake flush.  

 

The dealer who performed this service (different state) said timing belt replacement should occur at 109,000.  This car was just sold to me at 108,300.  They provided me a copy of the recent work done in-house, including oil/filter change, new front brakes, machined rear brakes.  I do not see timing belt listed, but it seems like something they would have done.  

 

So, a related question regarding 'dealer etiquette', *should* they have replaced the timing belt at 108,000 prior to the sale?  When I was shown the list of in-house service performed on the car prior to making my decision, I specifically remarked, 'So the car will not need any service for a while then, correct?'.  I was told 'nope'. 

 

Thank you for the input...

[AdventureSubaru]

Sales people rarely know much about what they are selling. Sounds like you have a good solid car that needs a timing job soon. Buy a gates kit for your year and pay a decent shop to install it. Good to go for another 100k

[Rooster2]

Replacing the timing belt is a usual time to also replace the water pump, as it requires minimal extra labor.

 

Probably also a good time to replace the auto tranny fluid and tranny external filter. Don't drop the tranny plan, as screen filter in there does not need to be replaced. If you are handy, you can do the tranny work yourself. Just drain and fill the tranny 3 times, with short drives between drain and fills. The 3 time approach is needed, as only about half the tranny fluid can be drained. The remainder stays in the torque converter, and won't drain out.

[idosubaru]

Replace the timing belt components - belt, tensioner, and pulleys. There are reasonable Gates kits available through amazon, otherwise the parts can be very expensive locally. 

 

It sounds like a reasonable 13 year old price, condition, and assessment from Subaru.  I see no reasonable expectations on Subarus part.   

 

Inspections are good - but with absolutely no skin in the game, it's really easy to be ultra critical.  I could probably be ultra critical of their inspection - point out areas which are pointless/over the top and 04 foretser platform specific issues they should have checked.  but i've got no skin in the game either, easy. 

 

headgasket - we need a picture before we can comment but so far we haven't seen compelling evidence from the various sources.

 

spark plug tube oil - there's no check engine lights, that's not on Subaru in my opinion for a 13 year old car.  at what age can they reasonably assume not everything is going to be *perfect*?  5 years, 10, 25, 100...?  I think 13 is well beyond that margin. 

 

As an example - most average drivers aren't replacing those seals until a check engine light shows up.  So it's not out of the ordinary.  Also - we have to question the inspectors review of "oil in the spark plug tubes" if another place said the "headgasket leak" was a "spot".   

 

there's lots of tests that could be done - but assumptions have to be made and they're being fair to assume a 13 year old engine has the value (and condition) of a 13 year old engine by a short test drive and no check engine lights. 

 

they aren't going to measure valve clearances, spark plug gap, pull timing covers and check seal faces, and oil pumps, and pull injectors to test spray patterns, check brake fluid contamination, coolant voltage and properties, ATF and oil analysis, check HVAC pressures, check fuel pressure, hook up vacuum gauges, do smoke testing, do leak down tests, do compression tests....

 

most average drivers aren't replacing those seals until a check engine light shows up - so again, 13 year old car, you can't inspect and address every millimeter of a car and look for 3 year old condition when you paid for 13 year old stuff. 

[mikec03]

+1 to previous comments.  The Op has a good running car and should not have any complaints.  One thing that needs to be emphasized, however.  I have an 02 subaru that had the oil leak from the spark plug tube gaskets just like the OP.  The oil saturates the spark plug wires and eventially you will notice the engine starting to miss at 50 mph or so.  So replace the valve cover gaskets immediately.  The gasket kit which includes the tube gaskets is only about $40 at advance auto.  There are DIY available that even a cave man can follow.  If sometime later, the car starts to miss, well the OP will know the reason and replace the spark plug wires at that time.

 

Don't replace the spark plugs.  They should be checked of course which is standard proceedure on all used cars.

 

For goodness sakes, do not pay $400 to have this done!  If you can't do it yourself, find an indy subaru shop.

[ksignor]

Rooster2, grossgary, mikec03, points well taken, thank you.  Beyond changing a tire, I am far from savvy with anything automotive.

 

I understand the extent of the HG issue might be a matter of opinion, and I may get plenty more miles out of them.  

 

However, three mechanics have identified 'HG seepage'.  Two are Subaru mechanics at other dealerships.  

 

I am the proud owner of a flip phone, so unfortunately no great pictures.  I did get a look when one of the mechanics had the car lifted - nothing dripping, by any means, but definite 'wet' spots and oil residue at hg seals (hope that makes sense).  Otherwise, extremely clean engine - they power washed it pre-sale.

 

Waiting on other estimates, but it sounds like $418 is scandalous for 'Valve cover gasket replacement, both sides' (the non-Subaru dealer estimate):

 

- R&R valve cover gaskets both sides, clean area and recheck for leak ($324)

- Spark plug tube seal x 4 ($17.48)

- Valve cover Seal Washer OEM x 10 (35.70)

- Valve cover gasket set ($41.71)

 

I agree it's not a perfect car, that doesn't exist in my price range.  However, I asked two specific questions before I bought it:

'Are there any HG issues?' and 'It doesn't need any servicing for a while?'.  Both answers were 'No'....

 

Anyone else want to chime in?!  

[golucky66]

That's because there really isn't any HG issue to be honest. It's very very common for these engine to seep oil from head gasket's in as little as 75k on them and they many not fail for another 150k miles.

So to 99% of mechanics who understand Subaru's, the HG leak just means they weren't done in the last 50k.

 

Should they of told you it was seeping? Yes. But that would "scare" you away (or at least many uneducated people) because the second someone hears "seeping" or "leak" they worry that its going to fail. When in this case. It won't.

 

As for the valve cover leak, I don't know why they didn't tell you. Maybe when they did their inspection and pulled a spark plug, the one they pulled didn't have oil in it. So they didn't lie to you. They literally didn't know.

[AdventureSubaru]

I'll take it a step further just because so much is known about this motor since it's widely used and been around for a while.

 

If the head gaskets have not been replaced before, they will fail. Usually somewhere around 150k on average. Head gasket leak and head gasket seepage are two very different things. Seepage is no problem. No worries. No indication of failure. All these motors will do it at this mileage.

 

The head gasket failure whenever it happens is not a huge deal either if you do your research. Read up and know how to catch it early so the motor doesn't overheat and compromise future reliability. When the day comes for new headgaskets, do your research and find a shop that will do it right and not charge an arm and a leg. The average shop will run you  costly repair and not necessarily do it properly.

 

Properly = resurfacing of the heads and usually turbo model gaskets. They will not fail again when done right. You'll have a motor than can go another 200-300k.

 

You've got a while most likely before this comes up. If you pay a shop to do it, you'll pay a good bit for the repair, but it is well worth it if the rest of the car is running well. Always a good idea to "tithe" a bit each month into a car fund in case repairs are ever necessary, you wont be hurting to keep the lights on or food on the table. Ballpark 900-1500 in labor for the job. If you read up a DIY job with resurfacing will run you $300-$400.

[ksignor]

Ha, well I believe I am becoming less uneducated as a member of this forum no thanks to all of your comments, thank you again.

 

The last two posts above provide a little more piece of mind for a newbie and also remind me that perhaps the best question, initially, would have been 'Is what I'm describing really an issue that needs to be fixed or evidence of an inevitable failure?'.

 

As a complete novice, you bet I fall into the 'seeping is scary' category!  I agree, I don't think the dealership is deliberately mislead.  

 

Lesson for the day: Seeping is not scary.

[idosubaru]

It's hard to say - if the spotting seen is 2 weeks since cleaning, or over the past 3 years - those are two different things.

 

I think this comes down to miscommunication.  Ideally two things should have happened: 

1.  you or an independent looked at the HG's before purchase.  or you talk to the actual subaru person who did and ask them to show you.

2.  the dealer would have said something like, "There is some wetness, but it's mostly residual and you won't have any issues for 50,000+ miles"....or something like that.

or get something down in writing - but then "any HG issues" is somewhat ambiguous - you would focus on "any", they would focus on "issues".

no one did either 1 or 2 so we're just left with a he-said she-said and both parties made a mistake - sounds like a wash and you have to live with th decisions.

 

a post-purchase inspection is honestly a terrible idea, i'm not sure who recommended that, but that's awful advice. i would never suggest or be party to a post-purchase inspection - too many arbitrary and subjective possibilities...particularly on a 10+ year old vehicle.

[idosubaru]

the shop quoted $400 - $500 for less than a hundred dollars and an hours work. they're going to do pretty well if you go with them.

 

moving forward mechanically, take note:

 

i would drive the car a little while and see how much the headgaskets are leaking - take pictures/document if they get worse over a short amount of time. i'd want to know if i'm doing a headgasket in a year or less or far off in the future before i move forward with other maintenance. here's why"

 

the timing belt and valve cover gaskets all have to be removed to replace a headgasket. so you generally want to avoid doing the valve cover gaskets now if you'll need headgaskets soon. you'll essentially get "free labor" on the valve cover gaskets and timing belt if you do have the headgaskets replaced.

 

if you do the valve covers now for $500.

timing belt for $700.

that's $1,200 - you're already close to headgasket replacement costs.

 

a complete headgasket job should be $1,500 - $2,000 (if it includes valve covers, timing tensioner, pulleys)

if you end up needing to go this route make absolutely certain you ask here first - you want turbo headgaskets and the heads resurfaced. most places don't know that and only seldom resurface - it should be done every time on these.

Edited October 12, 2016 by grossgary

[ksignor]

the timing belt and valve cover gaskets all have to be removed to replace a headgasket. so you generally want to avoid doing the valve cover gaskets now if you'll need headgaskets soon. you'll essentially get "free labor" on the valve cover gaskets and timing belt if you do have the headgaskets replaced.

 

if you do the valve covers now for $500.

timing belt for $700.

that's $1,200 - you're already close to headgasket replacement costs.

 

a complete headgasket job should be $1,500 - $2,000 (if it includes valve covers, timing tensioner, pulleys)

if you end up needing to go this route make absolutely certain you ask here first - you want turbo headgaskets and the heads resurfaced. most places don't know that and only seldom resurface - it should be done every time on these.

 

I follow your logic completely.  After speaking with the dealer briefly, they are going to re-inspect the spark plugs/valve cover gaskets.  They are also going to see how much they can do so far as covering this and timing belt replacement.  

 

So, if they are covering part of the timing belt, spark plugs, valve gasket covers, I'll have them do it.  The question becomes, at *this* point, if they are already doing the timing belt pkg, is it worth proceeding with replacing head gaskets with turbo and resurfacing heads as a preventative measure??  

 

There is apparently the option to turn the car back in, but not sure if that is best for anyone.  USMB and members, how I love thee...

[idosubaru]

It's 4 years past due for timing belt replacement - Timing belt replacement is 105,000 miles OR 105 months - whichever comes first.

 

Dealers don't typically replace the tensioner and pulleys - so if they do it you may have a tough decision.

If they replace the timing belt and you pay for the tensinoers and pulleys ($200) - that's a fantastic resolution.
If they'll only replace the belt, that's unfortunate, while pre-200k tensioner and pulley failures aren't common, they aren't rare and leave you with 4 digit head/engine repair/replacement.

It's wise and I would do it personally but if it came to a tough call, I wouldn't even care about the water pump - pre 200k failure is much rarer than the items above and catastrophic damage from it is even more rare (again, unlike tensinoer/pulley failure). 

 

As to paying for a full on headgasket job and resurfacing - you can ask if they'd simply charge you for headgasket job minus labor...not sure how they handle that. 

 

If we simply add up headgasket repair, subtract the "complementary timing belt and valve cover labor" - because it's required for headgasket replacement, it is labor that *must* be done to remove heads, and add additional parts:

 

$1,500 headgaskets and resurface (keep in mine dealers don't routinely install turbo headgaskets or resurface)

-$500 timing belt labor

-$400 valve cover gaskets labor

+$200 for timing tensioner and 3 pulleys

 

= $800 total final cost. 

 

That would be an excellent deal - for a top notch headgasket job, full timing kit, and VCG's.

 

Not sure - I wouldnt' think they'd generally operate that way with labor costs - but for the sale of the car/customer service there's a good chance they might offer somethign along those lines if you've played nice to this point.