Car runs smoother with consumption test?

[TheGoodShepherd]

2014 Forester, not turbo.

 

Had the oil changed a while back. Three thousand miles later, I get the warning that the car is low on oil. It turned out to be over a quart low. Dealer topped it off and recommended consumption test when I returned for the regular scheduled oil change.

 

I did return, and there was a slight reservation about doing the test. But they didn't argue beyond telling me a little consumption was normal with 4-5,000 miles, with certain driving conditions, and so on. I explained the car how low the oil had been after 3K.

 

I noticed the car drove more smoothly as I left the lot. The next day, just driving around town, I noticed it wasn't "jumping" the way it normally did from a stop. This "jumping" is normal for the Forester—it seems to have quite a bit of power for a four cylinder. Other owners have shared my observation. In fact, you have to learn to touch the gas lightly from a stop. The car doesn't seem to do that since taking it in for the consumption test yesterday. In fact, acceleration throughout the low end just seems reduced.

 

I've read dealerships are overfilling to avoid replacing engines. Are there other tricks as well? De-tuning? Using a heavier oil?

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

There's a chance that they used some kind of oil additive, that might thicken the overall oil SAE number, somehow. Why don't you ask them?

 

Kind Regards.

[brus brother]

https://www.cars.com/articles/2011-15-subaru-oil-consumption-update-1420683845519/

There is a class action lawsuit and settlement regarding excess oil consumption including extending warranty to 100K miles. Looks like your 2014 Forrester may be included.

[TheGoodShepherd]

If they were willing to add something to cheat the test, I'm supposed to believe they'd be honest about it?

 

I know about the class action lawsuit. I received the same letter everyone else did.

 

I just checked the oil after letting the car sit over night. It was more than half an inch, maybe an inch above the full line. And it seemed thick.

 

I had a funny feeling when I left, because the serviceman was being overly nice.

 

Now I have to take it back and have them start over, hoping all the while it doesn't just happen again. I'll post the name of the dealership if I continue having problems.

Edited October 13, 2016 by TheGoodShepherd

[idosubaru]

didn't they wax seal the dipstick so you can't tamper with it?

 

i would ask them if you can watch them fill it with oil and check the level, or verify the dipstick level before they seal it. 

 

Personally I'd also be running something other than 0W-20 oil - I'm shocked at all the oil consumption complaints and so few people try to up the oil weight.  i'd go 10w-30 or even a 40 as a test. 

[TheGoodShepherd]

No, there was no wax seal. I even asked if they sealed everything when done, and they said they did not. They told me not to add oil.

 

First and foremost, these aren't just "complaints" to readily dismiss. Subaru has agreed to a settlement in a class-action lawsuit (without admitting that there is a problem). I had my warranty extended as part of that settlement.

 

If I start putting a heavier oil in the car, do I not void the manufacturer's warranty? If Subaru calls for 0W-20 synthetic, and only 0W-20 synthetic, how else can we interpret that? I know that using a heavier oil reduces gas mileage, which was the reason light oil was engineered in the first place—to improve gas mileage.

 

I checked the oil first thing in the morning. The car had sat in the drive for a dozen hours. The oil was at least half an inch above the top fill mark. A shop in town looked at it as well, and said it was over filled by roughly half a quart.

 

I drove to the dealership, which is an hour away, They had the car sit for about fifteen minutes. They told me that the proper method to check the oil was to bring the car to operating temperature and then allow it to sit for five to ten minutes. When they checked it, it was only slightly high—according to their method. I understand this method may leave a considerable amount of oil in the engine where it cannot be measured. And there seems to be no consensus on the subject of when to check the oil: morning or while hot, and what you should read at BOTH times. Equal amounts of "I've always checked it in the morning" and "Check it with each stop for gas."

 

When I was told that this dealer no longer attempts to rebuild defective engines related to this consumption issue, but instead replaces them entirely, because doing so was faster, more successful, and cheaper overall, I assumed the financial disincentive to do the work had been resolved. But there are a lot of accounts out there of people still having a hell of a time getting a dealer to agree to do the work. These accounts breed distrust. But perhaps the over consumption solution is not universal? Perhaps Subaru settled the lawsuit but intends to minimize losses on the back end, or continues to pass those losses onto dealers who have more to lose, relatively speaking?

 

Hell, I just want to know how to check the oil. Can't even get a consistent answer on that.

Edited October 13, 2016 by TheGoodShepherd

[idosubaru]

How the oil is checked matters not as long as:

1. it's at the full line the first time when the test starts

2. it's checked the same way both times

 

I think the issue here is #1, rather than how the oil was checked. Maybe verify that before the car leaves the lot when the test is first initiated?

 

I wasn't trying to be dismissive, i fully understand this issue. And I understand you're trying to get a warranty replacement here, totally makes sense to follow the books. That's why i suggested asking them to watch/check the fill level on refilling. You don't have to suggest that in a demeaning suspicious way - but just a double check. The FSM calls for an odd amount of oil - 5.1 quarts. If they're filling from bottles - that 0.1 quart could easily be hard to document, measure.

 

All that said - it wouldn't void your warranty, nor would they check or have to know. And I would want to know as much as possible, more than that them. knowledge is good because i know how to interpret it myself and make better forward thinking decisions than a shop generally will with one size fits all approaches.

 

Oddly consumption is a benign symptom, the possible issue is carbon build in the combustion chamber affecting valve cooling, ignition, and over time can cause misfires.

 

Nasty burning combustion chamber gives black sooty deposits everywhere:

http://www.submariner.org/thepno95/Pictures/Subaru/Engine%20build/EJ25D%20swap/Cobb%20heads%20and%20cams/No2%20and%20No4%20head.jpg

 

A clean, well running engine should have more tan and less black:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Subaru-EJ25-Cylinder-Head-/252548056145

 

 

The owners manual does allow for 5w-30 and 5w-40:

"If 0W-20 synthetic oil is not available,

5W-30 or 5W-40 conventional oil may

be used if replenishment is needed but

should be changed to 0W-20 synthetic

oil at the next oil change."

 

I'd run 5w-30 or 40 a time or two, even if i had to pay for another oil change on my own clock - just to see what happens. As soon as the warranty is up i'd be switching to thicker oil and I'd probably switch even sooner to limit the amount of internal burning in the combustion chamber. Tolerances and materials engineering are such that it is possible to run this light of an oil - it's just rolling dice for those to all go perfectly in real world situations. Surely/hopefully that improves as they figure this out but so far i'd be formulating my own best approaches.

Edited October 13, 2016 by grossgary

[TheGoodShepherd]

Honestly, I'm not hoping for an engine replacement. I'd rather not have to bother. But, when you are more than a quart low after just 3,000 miles, it's worrisome. It's not even that I have to drive an hour for an oil change. That oil doesn't just disappear. Like you describe, it ends up fouling the entire engine. Four or five years from now, I don't want to have to put in a new engine on my own dime because some engineer miscalculated a tolerance or recommended an ineffective method of galvanization.

 

Fingers crossed.

 

Would still like to know: If the car's been running, shouldn't the oil level be between the low and full notches? It's OK to be as high as I described after sitting over night?

Edited October 13, 2016 by TheGoodShepherd

[TheGoodShepherd]

Ultimately, the engine was replaced under warranty. After 3,000 miles, the engine had consumed nearly a quart and a half of oil. I had one of the bad engines.

 

The work was done very quickly. I dropped the car off in the morning and was given a free rental. The car was ready in the evening.

 

When you are accustomed to getting screwed over by dealerships, you tend to be distrustful and defensive. At one point, these guys assured me that it was virtually impossible anything was wrong with my car, and that excessive oil consumption was mere hysteria, which is not truthful. I'm grateful that they did not manipulate or misrepresent test results once that ball was rolling, but I'd rather they had been more up front initially, as that lead me to believe they could not be trusted.

 

And I have noticed that the car runs differently after every oil change—there is a slight change in throttle response, which normalizes in a day or two.

[idosubaru]

Excellent. Good job sticking it through.

 

Unfortunately the dealer can be in a tight spot too. Consumers can be insanely demanding, illogical, abrasive and not at all mechanically inclined. That's a tough mix particularly when dollars are involved. As someone who helps people for free nearly weekly I hear all sorts of stories, interpretations, misdiagnosis and mis-assumptions all day long from people and shops. I would not want to be a mechanic or dealer.

So while they were not right to dismiss the consumption issue verbally - clearly they didn't dismiss it entirely as they did the proper test for you - if actions speak louder than words they did you well. But they were right that consumer hysteria exists. For proof you can scour most popular auto forums (this one about the most practical and least like that which is why I like it here) and read oil threads. LOL

[GeneralDisorder]

Oil consumption of 1 quart, give or take, in 3,000 miles, is not terribly excessive.

 

The engine was ENGINEERED to use some oil.

 

We have gone over this in other threads. Oil consumption, in and of itself, is not an issue. In fact the loose tolerances yield considerably better fuel economy and the price of the quart of oil is peanuts compared to the savings in gasoline.

 

The desire to have good fuel economy and good performance are at odds with extremely tight tolerances that yield little to no consumption.

 

Remember - loose is fast.

 

The only issue is that consumers both do not understand the intent of the engineers and the engineers should have provided a larger oil capacity and a dipstick that doesn't reflect a "problem" till the engine is multiple quarts low.

 

The whole issue is a huge mess. If consumers would just check their oil and add as needed and stop worrying about the consumption and being "inconvenienced" and "worried" about things they patently do not understand this wouldn't be an issue. Similarly if Subaru had designed the thing to not cause customer concern with warning lights and low dipstick indication.... again it wouldn't be an issue.

 

Look to lose 2-3 mpg with the tighter rings. More friction = less consumption = less efficiency. Period.

 

It's a very difficult situation. I build engines and we build them to use as little oil as possible but its still typical to see them use 1 quart in about 4-5k. This is because customer satisfaction demands low consumption and when building turbo engines they need that ring seal or you end up with severe blow by. For these economy isn't an issue.

 

More than 1.5 quarts in 3k is borderline. These engines all have about a 4.8 quart capacity so as long as you have more than 3 quarts after 3k then it's good to go. To an extent - the closer you are to that happy place of 1 quart in 3k (non turbo), the better the economy will be and the happier your wallet will be with fuel economy.

 

Personally - we prefer not to use the 0w20 oils, etc. The engines were not "engineered" to use this. They tolerate it for the US market. The turbocharged variants and most other countries run 10w30 in the same engines. We routinely run 15w50 in our race engines with only slightly larger than stock clearances. It has much higher film strength than the thinner stuff. We generally run either 5w30 or 5w40 in stock engines depending on their age and oil consumption/leakage level.

 

GD

Edited July 22, 2017 by GeneralDisorder