Key in run position, injector relays click widly, tach needle boucing

[GRANDLOYALE]

Hello,

 

Back ground info:

I have a 1994 Legacy Wagon. 2.2L, AWD, NA, 200,000 + miles.  Conditions: 25 degrees for the past month. Snow on the ground.  Recently replaced the Alternator.

 

-- Problem --

 

Today I started my Legacy and it fired up like always.  I drove about 3 miles.  Motor warmed up like it should.  All was running normally.

 

I pulled into a gas station and filled my tank.  Back out on the road, the motor began to run poorly.  I could not accelerate, the motor lacked power.  The check engine light NEVER came on.  As I drove forward the car seemed to buck back and forth, yet the tach remained at a set RPM.

 

Back home, I looked the car over.  The car would run and Idle.  The exhaust smelled sort of sour.  There were some sounds of a miss fire.  The motor did not bounce or vibrate as if to be running on 3 plugs.  I could rev the motor up to 3K with no complaint.

 

I let the motor cool.  Then tried to drive it down the street.  The problem had not gone away.

 

Now, the motor will not fire up.  When I turn the key to the RUN position, 3 seconds after I get a wild relay clicking sound coming from under the hood.  While this sound is happening the fuel line going from the fuel filter to the motor (injectors) is pulsating to match.  BUT, the lines coming from the fuel tank are not pulsing.

 

Also, the check engine light comes on and matches the relays click sounds.  And the tach needle bounces wildly.

 

The motor will turn over but will not fire up now.

 

 

I mentioned that I'd changed the alternator, just in case someone might have a connection.  I changed the alternator two weeks ago and the car has run perfect since them.  Also the cold weather has been on the ground here for the past month or so. I recall replacing the alternator in an icy cold wind storm.  

 

The pulsing fuel line from the motor to the fuel filter is a good clue.  But I cant find any relay in the area that matches the clicks.  I've felt the injectors and they are not making any sound or movement.

 

If you might have a hint, please send it my way.

 

Thanks for reading this.

Rog

Edited January 12, 2017 by GRANDLOYALE

[AdventureSubaru]

Initial thoughts it may be fuel pump or jumped timing.

 

See if it fires with a shot of starter fluid to indicate a fuel issue.

 

Check timing mark alignment to see if it's timed properly.

[1 Lucky Texan]

call the gas station and ask if anyone else has complained about bad fuel.

 

can you get the flash code out of the ecu? post the number(s)  here.

[GRANDLOYALE]

UPDATE:

 

After paying attention to the electrical relay sparking sound, I realized that it was my injectors opening and closing super fast.  I put the stethoscope on them and sure enough, they are opening and closing for no apparent reason when the key is in the RUN position.

 

Thank you for your replies.  I'll follow up with a phone call to the fuel station.

 

As for the fuel pump.  I have done two things.  1. switched the ignition to run, and felt / heard the fuel pump engage and a pre pressurize the line.  2. Unplugged the fuel pump and then felt the fuel line upfront, from the fuel filter to the injectors.  The sensation of erratic pumping is gone when the pump is unplugged.  I think this is because the fuel line is not pressurized, telling me the pump is ok at this time.

 

I'm going to look at the electrical for the injectors and try to see if some ice has effected the area.

 

Thank you.

[GRANDLOYALE]

UPDATE:

 

With the key in RUN position & injectors clicking open close, the radiator fan (pass side) has come on.  The motor is ice cold.

 

 

Tested each injector.  Each injector connection has one wire is getting 12 volts & the other wire is getting 0 volts.  Just as it should be.  So I know that the electrical connections are good.

 

 

I plugged the fuel injectors back in, re connected the power to the fuel pump, and tried to start the car.  It turned over then fired to life.  It ran on its own, perfectly, for about 1 minute, then simply stopped running.  Sort like switching the key off.

 

After that, the injectors went back to clicking and the fan continued to run.

 

I wonder if this is a brain issue??

[GRANDLOYALE]

UPDATE:

 

No Codes to share.  I plugged in the diagnostic plugs, switched the ign. to run.  The check engine light remains glowing for a split second then goes off.  I waited for a minute and no code.  I did this more times and still nothing.

 

So I disconnected the cables.  Then I turned the motor over.  The motor fires up, and runs, then promptly quits.  Then I tried it again, the motor ran longer.  I could rev the motor up and let it fall back to idle, several times, but then when I let the motor return to idle and allow it run on its own, POOF it dies.

 

The fan is no longer running???  

 

Weird rump roast electronics.

[GRANDLOYALE]

call the gas station and ask if anyone else has complained about bad fuel.

 

can you get the flash code out of the ecu? post the number(s)  here.

 

Thanks for the feed back. 

 

I have no codes to share.  I plugged the self diagnostics in and switched the key to run.  The check engine light turns off in a second but never turns back on.  No codes.  I tired this a few times.  

 

The station has no complaints of bad gas.  (Or so they say).

[GRANDLOYALE]

Initial thoughts it may be fuel pump or jumped timing.

 

See if it fires with a shot of starter fluid to indicate a fuel issue.

 

Check timing mark alignment to see if it's timed properly.

Hi,

 

The motor will fire up on its own from time to time.  When it does run, it runs great.  But wont keep running.  

 

I've added some new updates to my thread.  

 

I'm at a loss at this point.

[john in KY]

Could be not enough or too much air, little or no fuel pressure, no spark and that's about it. 

[GRANDLOYALE]

Could be not enough or too much air, little or no fuel pressure, no spark and that's about it. 

When it runs it runs good, so lack of spark would be controlled by something?

 

Fuel pressure, when I rev the motor it runs good, but when I let it idle, it dies.

 

Lack of air, or too much, like a vacuum leak should be constant, right. So it would effect things all the time.  And it does not explain the wild tach needle boucing and fluttering around, even when the motor is not running (key in run position).

 

Thanks for the ideas though.

[naru]

Sounds like an ECU related problem to me.

I`d guess a bad connection on one of the ECU grounds or power leads.

Could be as simple as a loose wiring harness connector.

 

I would be checking for any AC voltage output from the alternator too.

[Fairtax4me]

There is a goofy issue with the early 90s cars if the voltage regulator in the alrernator fails it will ground or back feed somehow and cause a no start problem.

Unplug the alternator and see if it starts. If it does, the alternator is bad.

 

Your best bet for a good alternator is a junkyard Subaru alternator. If you don't have one nearby try asking in the classifieds here.

Worst case, find a rebuild shop and have your original rebuilt.

[brus brother]

could a clogged cat cause these symptoms?

[GRANDLOYALE]

UPDATE:

 

Over the weekend I've done the following.

 

Drained fuel tank.  See photos of separated fuel.  This is not my main problem, contributed to one of the problems.

 

 

 

IMG_20170114_161710956 by R H, on Flickr

 

IMG_20170115_102932293 by R H, on Flickr

 

IMG_20170114_155557503 by R H, on Flickr

 

https://flic.kr/p/Q2FxLa

IMG_20170113_102432514_HDR by R H, on Flickr

 

 

 

This fuel is brand new.  I filled my tank on Thursday morning and just after that my car ran like crap.  

 

Both fluids burn!.  Top layer of lighter colored fuel burns.  It catches flame fast, burns with a tall yellow flame and puts off a black sooty smoke.  The bottom layer of caramel colored fuel burns too.  It catches flame a bit slower, has a short yellow flame and puts off no soot or smoke.

 

I wonder if this batch of fuel is old and the ethanol is separated from the gasoline. 

 

The real problem is a glitch with my cars electrical system.

 

Please watch the video I uploaded to YouTube.  The audio is light, so you might want to turn up the volume to hear all the sounds.

 

https://youtu.be/EmD6QFJwcQA

 

1. When the key is put to the RUN position nothing is really suppose to happen on a normal car.  Some lights on the dash should light up and the fuel pump should prime the system.

 

2. When my key is in the RUN position the electrical system glitches out.  There are repeated relay or solenoid clicks, the injectors chatter open & shut, the radiator fan (pass side) switches on and off, the fuel pump cycles on and off, the check engine light blinks in unison with the fan and fuel pump, and the starter even switched on briefly lunging the wagon forward because it was in gear.

 

3. I can get the motor to start.  And when it starts it runs good, but with a very high idle.  In the past two days I could not keep it running.  But now that the tank has clean fuel with HEET added, I was able to get the motor to keep running until it got to operating temperature.

 

4. Right when it got to operating temperature the check engine light came ON and the motor began to run light it was only operating 3 cylinders.  

 

5. I switched it off, plugged in the diagnostic wires.  Switching the IGN. to RUN I was expecting a code, but instead I got the same glitch (recorded in the video) then I started the motor.  When the motor started the check engine light began to flash the code 2-4.  Idle Air Valve.

 

6. I went to the bone yard and purchased a used ECU from a '93 Legacy NA 2.2L wagon.  I know ECU's can be swapped because years ago I lent my brother my ECU when his '92 Legacy wagon was having problems.  His car ran great with my ECU.

 

But the used ECU I installed did not remove the glitch problem, so I know it is not an ECU issue.  (or the used ECU has the same exact glitch as my wagon)  

 

If the images and video on this thread do not show up, bear with me I'll get them to work, I'm a bit rusty with this new set up.

 

Thanks.

Edited January 16, 2017 by GRANDLOYALE

[GRANDLOYALE]

could a clogged cat cause these symptoms?

I dont think so.  I just posted some new info (above).  My problem is an electrical glitch.  You can see the video on my YouTube link.  Or read my description of the issue.  Its weird and I dont know what to do about it.

[Fairtax4me]

The upper stuff in the container is gasoline. The lower stuff... ? Really not sure. Ethanol shouldn't separate from gasoline as far as I know. But if it burns with no smoke then it's almost certainly something alcohol based.

Is E85 available in your area?

 

As for the electrical... Did you try unplugging the alternator?

[1 Lucky Texan]

sounds like you have the green diagnostic connectors under the dash connected. They cycle the fans and all the solenoids.

 

disconnect them.

 

have you called the gas station again? You might try to find other 'victims' in your area - dunno how - maybe a 'consumer advocate' TV reporter?

 

anyway - that fuel looks awful - maybe a truck still had diesel in it or ??? - do either of the fluids smell like alcohol?

 

I have heard of ethanol being added and they rely on the driving to mix it in - but there;s speculation that it may not work if the a delivery is made quite near the terminal.

 

interesting.

[GRANDLOYALE]

UPDATE

 

sounds like you have the green diagnostic connectors under the dash connected. They cycle the fans and all the solenoids.

 

disconnect them.

 

have you called the gas station again? You might try to find other 'victims' in your area - dunno how - maybe a 'consumer advocate' TV reporter?

 

anyway - that fuel looks awful - maybe a truck still had diesel in it or ??? - do either of the fluids smell like alcohol?

 

I have heard of ethanol being added and they rely on the driving to mix it in - but there;s speculation that it may not work if the a delivery is made quite near the terminal.

 

interesting.

 

I did have the green terminals connected.  But the fans & solenoids will cycle and randomly click regardless of if the green terminals are connected or not.  I had the greens plugged in to try to get some codes.  No codes came up UNTIL I got the motor running.

 

Please read my update, I'll post soon.  Downloading video and photos now.

 

Thanks for your thoughts. 

[GRANDLOYALE]

The upper stuff in the container is gasoline. The lower stuff... ? Really not sure. Ethanol shouldn't separate from gasoline as far as I know. But if it burns with no smoke then it's almost certainly something alcohol based.

Is E85 available in your area?

 

As for the electrical... Did you try unplugging the alternator?

 

Look for my update, coming soon.  I tested the fuel and discovered the lower fuel was 70% ethanol.

 

E85 is available in Oregon.  I see a map at AltFuelPrices.com shows 5 places carry it.  Only one of thoes places is a gas station and that station is not the chain which I got my fuel from.

 

I did disconnect the alternator.  Disconnecting it did not effect the electrical glitches, nor the miss fire when motor reaches operating temp.

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

[GRANDLOYALE]

UPDATE:

 

I took the separated fuel sample to work.  There we used a simple tool which shows how much water can be absorbed into fuel.  Ethanol can absorb much more water than a gasoline/ethanol blend.

 

IMG_20170119_093843492 by R H, on Flickr

This photo above shows the results.  This sample was taken from the upper portion separated fuel.  We all assumed that this was gasoline.  We were all right.  The result shows that this sample has about 10% ethanol.

 

IMG_20170119_094253988 by R H, on Flickr

This photo above shows us the results from sampling the lower portion of separated fuel.  None of really knew what it was, but I'd assumed it was alcohol.  Turns out this assumption is right.  Ethanol will combine with water.  In this shot we can see that most of the water joined with the ethanol.  This means that the lower section of separated fuel was about 70% ethanol.

 

Sort of weird that I'd get really bad fuel that has separated that drastically.  FairTax4Me asked if Oregon has access to E85 (85% ethanol fuel).  The answer is yes, but in limited locations.  Only one place is a gas station, the other 4 places are shops and garages.

 

Electrical issues are still with me.

 

Here is a youtube video of my fuel pressure fluctuating with the electrical glitch.  Normally I think the fuel pressure should range around 30psi.  When my motor is running, the fuel pressure stays at a constant 30psi.  When I rev the motor, the fuel pressure increases to 32psi then quickly returns to 30psi.  

 

https://youtu.be/XEmITMiNTrk

 

And here is another video showing you various areas of my engine bay and under the dash, so that you can hear and see the odd electrical chatter.

 

https://youtu.be/Tuzmx_LPI_s

 

Finally, I cant recall if I mentioned this.  But last weekend, I got a used ECU from the bone yard.  I installed the ECU and I still have the same issues.  So I dont think that it is an ECU problem.

 

I also checked all the grounds that I could find and each ground looked fantastic.  I did clean the contacts on them and made sure they were nice and tight. 

 

I know there is a simple fix for this, I just dont know where it is hidden.  I was hopping that someone else might have run across something similar.  

 

Thank you.

Edited January 22, 2017 by GRANDLOYALE

[Fairtax4me]

Funny that fuel sample is pretty close to e85.

I would guess the gas station got a tank of bad fuel from its supplier.

 

 

The ECU controls all of the various solenoids and relays on the engine and in the car. If the ECU has a poor ground that could account for the weird symptoms. On the 95+ cars the ECU grounds to the intake manifold, I would assume 94 is similar, though I don't know for sure.

[GRANDLOYALE]

Funny that fuel sample is pretty close to e85.

I would guess the gas station got a tank of bad fuel from its supplier.

 

 

The ECU controls all of the various solenoids and relays on the engine and in the car. If the ECU has a poor ground that could account for the weird symptoms. On the 95+ cars the ECU grounds to the intake manifold, I would assume 94 is similar, though I don't know for sure.

So on a 1995 the ECU grounds are on the intake manifold.  What do thoes grounds look like.  Am I looking for small gauge wires screwed down to a bolt, or am I looking for a multi pin connection???

 

Please let me know what I might be looking for.

 

Thank you.

[naru]

Looking at them is not good enough.

You need to put your voltmeter between the grounds on the ECU plug and battery negative w/engine on.

Anything much more than zero indicates trouble.

 

Same w/the ECU power leads except here you want 12 volts.

 

That was sure some rude fuel.

[Fairtax4me]

Ground wires are usually brown. There should be 3-4 of them in a group going to an eyelet bolted to the manifold. On the 95s the ground is way down at the base of the number 4 runner facing toward the firewall. Those also go through the main engine harness connectors on the front left corner of the engine.

[GRANDLOYALE]

Ground wires are usually brown. There should be 3-4 of them in a group going to an eyelet bolted to the manifold. On the 95s the ground is way down at the base of the number 4 runner facing toward the firewall. Those also go through the main engine harness connectors on the front left corner of the engine.

OK, I located my ground wires on #4.  My wires are not brown, they are a black/yellow and a green.  Might be a few more in there, but I did not cut the shrink wrap away too far.

 

The ground at that point is in great shape.  

 

Running through the wires one last time, I came to realize that the odd clicks and injector noises stop when I unplug the IACV or the Alternator.

 

I've ruled out the IACV, so I'll take the alternator in to get checked out.  

 

I did recently replace the Alternator, about 3 weeks ago.  Perhaps it is internally dead.

 

If that does not pan out, then I'm going to sell the wagon and move on.  Unfortunately I have run out of time and need a daily to get to work.  I'm currently driving my classic truck back and forth and it's killing me.

 

Thank you for all your help.

 

If the alternator is bad, I'll update this thread.