post 04 subarus are Junk...buyers beware

[logic23]

I have been a mechanic for 25+ years first as a mainly VW mechanic and now and a specializing in Subarus for the past 14.  I don't get to post here as much as i would like to but this group has been super great over the years. I am writing this to "get the word out" that any Subaru made after 2004 has so many potential expensive failures that I no longer recommend these models as "reliable" vehicles.  It seems that Subaru has decided to spend their money on the flashy adds which they pay for buy putting cheaper, inferior, non japanese defective parts on the cars.

-I have seen engines under 100k throw rods:(normal oil level, no hard driving, regular oil changes). RING FAILURE

-under 100k A/C compressor failures.  Pre 2004 i have only replaced 2 compressors since i started working on them

-98k AVCS failure that has caused the engines to burn up valves.

-120k-150k turbo failures ( not driven hard) that destroy the engine with shrapnel.

-Head Gasket Issue never fixed and still seeping/failing

-tons of window motor failures. I have maybe replaced 1 motor in 14 years in the 1990-2004 models

-Cheaper ( non serviceable) starter put on all vehicles. previously these were only installed on the foresters and imprezas

-early power steering pump failures. The earlier models pumps usually made it to 140-160 before leaking.  These new models are failing around 120k

-plastic intake manifolds. When VW started using plastic parts in the the 90's it was the last straw for me and I stopped working on them.

   Plastic is cheap and will fail and most of the time be an expensive part.  The plastic a/c tensioner pulleys that they stared installing around 2003 have been the cause of 3        timing belt failures.  The plastic pulley locked up, the a/c belt being tougher than the pulley kept spinning and melted the pulley in 1/2 and at that point the hot melted pulley shot backwards thru the timing cover and jammed in the timing belt causing the belt to jump time and bend the valves. 

I'm sure we will continue to see more and more stuff like this as Subaru continues to profit by selling the customer an inferior product for the same high price.

I am always looking for ways to retro-fit the earlier, Japanese built parts. Some of the mods are drop in and other take some doing.

I would LOVE to hear more from the other veteran mechanics and subaru drivers who have experienced these and other issues.

Thank you all so much for being part of this grass-roots forum.

Craig

 

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

wow - that plastic pulley failure was a perfect storm sort of disaster.

 

I can really only confirm that it seems the planetary starters have bad lube - drive gears don't retract at low temps. WTH SUBARU! supposed to be mountain/snow cars!

 

 

 

I REALLY love my WRX - but it just may not be practical for me to keep it. I might be able to lease a new Forester for the wife, DD her 03 H6, and maybe drive the WRX on fridays only. Not really sure about my upcoming car situation yet.

[montana tom]

Sadly, I 100 % agree. I've owned nothing but subis since the 1980's .I run a small part time shop that is almost exclusively subi repairs.  I used to look forward to replacing my subi with a newer one...I even thought that an 06 would be a good upgrade from our 00 and 01 obw's  after working on 2005 and up subis I have come to the conclusion that personally I will not own any newer than 04.   They won't hold half the weight the older ones will... they have "drive by wire " throttle , temp control's are sporadic. No cruise control anytime the check engine light pops on ??? More computer interface with the whole car. They put larger more expensive size tires on ... the list is endless.  After 2009 they made them larger and now they look like every other generic suv on the road !  SAD SAD SAD that subi went this direction. All my customers looking for a replacement car now get told to search for a low mile or super clean 2004  back.

[CNY_Dave]

'05 forester non-turbo and '06 4cyl outback, so far only thing from that list I've seen is the forester window motors do indeed suck pretty bad.

[logic23]

Sadly, I 100 % agree. I've owned nothing but subis since the 1980's .I run a small part time shop that is almost exclusively subi repairs.  I used to look forward to replacing my subi with a newer one...I even thought that an 06 would be a good upgrade from our 00 and 01 obw's  after working on 2005 and up subis I have come to the conclusion that personally I will not own any newer than 04.   They won't hold half the weight the older ones will... they have "drive by wire " throttle , temp control's are sporadic. No cruise control anytime the check engine light pops on ??? More computer interface with the whole car. They put larger more expensive size tires on ... the list is endless.  After 2009 they made them larger and now they look like every other generic suv on the road !  SAD SAD SAD that subi went this direction. All my customers looking for a replacement car now get told to search for a low mile or super clean 2004  back.

Looks like we have come to the same conclusion. except that im trying to put my customers in 97-99 outback limited with the 2.2 swaps, 04 front brake upgrades and forester struts. The 2000-2004 are the next on the list.  I tell customers that i would put my 99 limited OBW( 2.2 swap) head to head with a 2016 and it would last longer ( even with the age handicap) and have fewer problems. THis i would put on paper and sign.

[logic23]

'05 forester non-turbo and '06 4cyl outback, so far only thing from that list I've seen is the forester window motors do indeed suck pretty bad.

On the 06 watch the AVCS filters and solenoids .. change oil often and also keep an eye on the throttle body. The oil sludge builds up there and makes the drive by wire malfunction at idle. The motor cant overcome the sticky sludge and car will idle funny and throw codes etc.  We see this a lot. You can swap in the earlier starter when that one fails and get the plastic a/c idler pulley off that jam asap.

[1 Lucky Texan]

On the 06 watch the AVCS filters and solenoids .. change oil often and also keep an eye on the throttle body. The oil sludge builds up there and makes the drive by wire malfunction at idle. The motor cant overcome the sticky sludge and car will idle funny and throw codes etc.  We see this a lot. You can swap in the earlier starter when that one fails and get the plastic a/c idler pulley off that jam asap.

 

 

"You can swap in the earlier starter when that one fails"  wait - I could put in, say - a starter from an '05 or earlier WRX and it will fit and work OK?

[logic23]

the stock starter on a 05 and earlier wrx is the cheaper one.. the one you want is the outback starter used from 1990-2005ish. It has a serviceable starter solenoid. These guys last forever and the solenoid repair costs 60-70 and you still have an all Japanese unit.  I put this in my 2002 wrx when its starter failed in the fall. No issues. All autos are the same all manuals are the same.

[keith3267]

Toyota invested heavily in Subaru's parent company and are now involved in the design and quality of the new Subaru's.  Since Toyota got involved, Subaru's frequency of repair has improved to where it is almost a match to Toyota.  The downside is that Toyota seems to be using Subaru to test new engine designs before using them on their own vehicles.  The BRZ engine has features that Toyota will start using in the 2017 engines for the Camry and Prius.

 

Edit: added this link to an article about the new Toyota engines and transmissions they will introduce 2017 to 2021

 

http://newatlas.com/toyota-tnga-engines/46830/?li_source=LI&li_medium=default-widget

Edited February 3, 2017 by keith3267

[logic23]

Toyota invested heavily in Subaru's parent company and are now involved in the design and quality of the new Subaru's.  Since Toyota got involved, Subaru's frequency of repair has improved to where it is almost a match to Toyota.  The downside is that Toyota seems to be using Subaru to test new engine designs before using them on their own vehicles.  The BRZ engine has features that Toyota will start using in the 2017 engines for the Camry and Prius.

 

Edit: added this link to an article about the new Toyota engines and transmissions they will introduce 2017 to 2021

 

http://newatlas.com/toyota-tnga-engines/46830/?li_source=LI&li_medium=default-widget

Well that doesn't help the millions of customers that are currently driving the 05-16 models.  I wouldn't bet any amount of money that subaru/toyota are reversing their trend of "build a cheaper car and sell it for more money" Let get back to this topic in 2024 when they are 10 years old and compare notes.

[1 Lucky Texan]

the stock starter on a 05 and earlier wrx is the cheaper one.. the one you want is the outback starter used from 1990-2005ish. It has a serviceable starter solenoid. These guys last forever and the solenoid repair costs 60-70 and you still have an all Japanese unit.  I put this in my 2002 wrx when its starter failed in the fall. No issues. All autos are the same all manuals are the same.

 

 

THANX  this gives me a plan! (as long as my flywheel is OK I guess)

[idosubaru]

maybe it's like appliances - they're more disposable now.

 

are consumers partly to blame? i mean i guess it doesn't matter - the end product is still the end product. although I haven't seen signficant and compelling differences, for the few issues i still see plenty of high mileages newer subaru's doing their thing.

 

even if a vehicle is in excellent shape they get traded with low miles, moved on - there is still strong consumer support for the market that they participate in. modern consumers are less informed, more demanding (i mean sadly I've seen and heard the way some of my friends talk about buying cars), and they want more novelty, gadgets, comfort, warranty, luxuries...and their grasp on anything beyond oil changes is limited...this is at least a very strong sector of the market that carries significant weight for a business to flourish.

Edited February 3, 2017 by grossgary

[1 Lucky Texan]

one possible explanation is CAFE - I read that the rules as of 2016 were particularly difficult for car makers. and it started a long time ago; plastic headlight lenses,  'donut' spare tire, smaller batteries, smaller rear brakes, air-cut valves,  thinner glass, more aluminum, cvt, etc. Kinda surprised we don't have stop-start mandated here yet.

 

(of course, each time some future change to the rules is announced, manufacturers begin making changes a few model years before the requirements)

Edited February 3, 2017 by 1 Lucky Texan

[Numbchux]

I think most of what you're listing is pretty common across the industry, in my experience.

 

 

There's been a huge push for lower fuel mileage. A huge attempt to reduce friction in the engines has reduced their longevity. I completely blame the oil consumption on this, and I've heard that running synthetic 5W30 in those cars has drastically reduced the oil consumption, at a direct cost in fuel mileage.

 

Manufacturing processes have changed, and parts are made with as little extra material as possible. Probably both in an attempt to reduce weight for mileage purposes, and cost of manufacturing. But in trying not to overbuild parts, manufacturers are making them more prone to failure. In the last 15 years, the internet has made it SO easy to compare cost, safety rating, and fuel mileage of new cars (and almost anything, if you can't compete out-of-the-box, you're going out of business, almost regardless of longevity), and has made the competition completely cut throat. But evidence of reliability is far less easy to research, and highly circumstantial. A warranty can help ease that comfort to the buyer, but you're still only talking about 60-100k miles....

 

The addition of systems like traction control, immobilizers, TPMS, etc. have only driven up costs and complexity.

 

I also think that in this day and age, the average owner does less and less preventative maintenance. Over my years working in auto parts (now at a fairly large Subaru dealership), I've had several customers tell me they don't know how to turn on their headlights manually. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume they're not checking their oil.....ever. And with recommended oil change intervals climbing towards 10k miles, the chances of catching a problem before it becomes catastrophic are slim. We see so many engines come in here with obvious signs of neglect. 

 

 

 

Turbo vehicles are higher maintenance, and I do not consider turbo-gas engines to be an indicator of longevity....150k miles is a lot for them, regardless of manufacturer.

 

 

Pick your source, cost of repair for Subarus tends to be on the inexpensive side.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/12/what-that-car-really-costs-to-own/index.htm (The only examples in the "high cost" column are turbos)

https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/the-most-and-least-expensive-cars-to-maintain-by-maddy-martin

https://www.kbb.com/new-cars/total-cost-of-ownership/?r=963483507881576000 (I immediately see the Legacy, Outback, Crosstrek, and BRZ in the top 5 of their respective catagories, although this consider depreciation as well)

[logic23]

maybe it's like appliances - they're more disposable now.

 

are consumers partly to blame? i mean i guess it doesn't matter - the end product is still the end product. although I haven't seen signficant and compelling differences, for the few issues i still see plenty of high mileages newer subaru's doing their thing.

 

even if a vehicle is in excellent shape they get traded with low miles, moved on - there is still strong consumer support for the market that they participate in. modern consumers are less informed, more demanding (i mean sadly I've seen and heard the way some of my friends talk about buying cars), and they want more novelty, gadgets, comfort, warranty, luxuries...and their grasp on anything beyond oil changes is limited...this is at least a very strong sector of the market that carries significant weight for a business to flourish.

Well sadly i think most things in life are going the "disposible" route.  

Yes the customer has an obligation to research the product but i think that is hugely overshadowed by the fact that the manufacture is supposed to be selling a "better" product year by year. 

The customer shouldn't have to doubt that their 2015 outback is a worse car than their old 02 forester. 

The marketing/propaganda that subaru is using thru flashy adds has pulled the wool over the eyes of the consumer. As they say in Japan ," very dishonorable"

It is our job as independent/ un-biased mechaninics to warn the buying public and let subaru know we are watching.

[matt167]

Subaru was not a popular company in that time period. Few took the dive. Subaru stepped up and started building cars they could sell. They might not be up to the same level of quality as before, but compared to competition, they are at least on par.

[Stelcom66]

I have a 2002 Forester, only about 125k miles. Except for the Check Engine light being on, and the air conditioning being weak last summer it runs great. When it is time for head gaskets, I will consider having the repair done rather than purchase a newer Subaru - because I still want a Subaru, I've been doing a lot of research, and I'll read about various types of failures and defects that I've never even remotely experienced with mine. One surprising report is the lack of heat in the newer Foresters. Maybe that's inherent in newer engines like the FB having less friction and putting out less heat? I'd gladly sacrifice a mpg or two for adequate heat output - which my '02 has plenty of.

 

Another concern is that even after switching to the MLS head gasket in the 2010 model year Outback there are still failures (still the EJ engine). But ironically, at typically less than 120k miles, usually less than the typical EJ engine mileage. So it seems maybe the head gasket failure was caused by overheating, which in turn damaged the gaskets? There's a Head Gasket Failure Log on subaruoutback.org. I didn't expect to see any newer models, but there's some 2010 + models on the list. 

[WoodsWagon]

I will say the 05+ subarus' don't seem to rust nearly as bad as the older ones. The 00-04 legacy's and outbacks just disintegrated in the rear, I'd say they rusted faster and worse than the 95-99's, and those were already pretty bad. So better rust proofing is a step of progress I can be happy about.

 

Add rear wheel bearings to the list on the 05+'s, at least they're bolt in, but still, seen a few of them go around 100k.

 

I can't fault them for going to plastic intakes. It's a non-moving, non-wearing part, why not make it lighter? VW built things out of shitty brittle plastic that needed the strength of metal. The plastic AC idler pulley isn't an issue, it's the crappy bearing inside it. I also have an 03 EJ25 with a circle melted through the timing belt cover. It may have gone catastrophic because I noticed new valves in one head when I did headgaskets for the 2n'd time on it. First shop botched the job, put the headbolts in dry, and whizzer wheeled the head and block surfaces so the parts can't really be blamed for only making it 60k.

[1 Lucky Texan]

perhaps the perceived cost of new cars has decreased our tolerance for minor/moderate issues? Or, because we feel obligated to keep cars longer due to the increased investment, , we are more likely to experience multiple problems with it? Or the CAFE and other regulations has made DIY more difficult/expensive?

 

 

anyway, these charts don't really support a decrease in quality;

 

 

 

 

 

I couldn't find a chart for 'inflation adjusted historical cost of ownership of a new car' after a brief search, that might be interesting.

Edited February 4, 2017 by 1 Lucky Texan

[Crazyeights]

That's why I registered the domain http://www.before2004.com/  I haven't done anything with it yet though.

[Stelcom66]

It does look like stats show an increase in quality. I guess I keep thinking of my second Subaru and 2 my sons had without any major trouble, and they weren't prone to the typical head gasket trouble since they had the 2.2L engine. I wonder what difference made that engine so reliable - was it a closed deck.. and if it was, could that be a factor?

 

Both 2002s I had never had major trouble, the Outback I traded in for the Forester (wanted a manual trans.) at 142k did likely need new head gaskets. On my Forester normal replacements like axles and the clutch (that may have been early). I read some owner's reviews about how frustrating it is to figure out the climate control and audio/navigation systems on newer vehicles. Makes me grateful mine are basic and mechanical. Honda is touting the 2017 CRV now has a volume control for the audio systems, and owners are praising reverting back to that control.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Stelcom66

[pontoontodd]

Thanks to everyone else for sharing your experiences.  Definitely makes me hesitate to buy a newer Subaru.  I also vote for the EJ22 being an excellent engine overall.

 

Those charts don't really show an increase in reliability, at least for cars 2005+.  If the average age of a car in 2013 was 11 years, that would be a 2002 (2003MY?).  If anything it shows an increase in reliability in cars built during the 90s.  It also says nothing about how many repairs or tows per year those vehicles require to stay on the road.  One problem with things like the JD power quality surveys is that they show problems per 1000 cars.  That problem could be a glovebox light burned out or an engine seized up.

 

Is some portion of this due to reduced maintenance or even simple things like how often people check their oil, like Numbchux said?  That doesn't explain things like power windows or starters that (should) require no maintenance.

 

Also, as grossgary said, most people who buy new cars are more concerned about performance and styling than fuel economy and reliability.  Just look at the graph above, if the average new car owner keeps their car for 6 years and it makes it through the warranty period with few problems, what does the manufacturer care?  Sure, some of them like Jeep and Honda brag about resale value, but I'm guessing that's a very secondary concern.

[pzookey]

I used to work where the AC compressors are made. It is a Toyota Denso joint venture and has been for quite a few years. They have some issues.

[rocketman]

Dully noted on all the above,I am still running my 98 and 99 foresters

[logic23]

It does look like stats show an increase in quality. I guess I keep thinking of my second Subaru and 2 my sons had without any major trouble, and they weren't prone to the typical head gasket trouble since they had the 2.2L engine. I wonder what difference made that engine so reliable - was it a closed deck.. and if it was, could that be a factor?

 

Both 2002s I had never had major trouble, the Outback I traded in for the Forester (wanted a manual trans.) at 142k did likely need new head gaskets. On my Forester normal replacements like axles and the clutch (that may have been early). I read some owner's reviews about how frustrating it is to figure out the climate control and audio/navigation systems on newer vehicles. Makes me grateful mine are basic and mechanical. Honda is touting the 2017 CRV now has a volume control for the audio systems, and owners are praising reverting back to that control.

they were less prone to failure ( in my opinion ) because of two factors.

A. the ratio of "aluminum to size of head" and head shape.  I think the dual over-heaad cam engines are more prone to warping and have thinner spots that cause hot areas.

B. the headgasket style of the 2.2.  squishy graphite type vs an MLS

I am currently working with a friend who is an industrial engineer and runs a machine shop to make the spacer/adapters so i can run early phase one 2.2s in post 1999 phase 2 engines.