post 04 subarus are Junk...buyers beware

[logic23]

I used to work where the AC compressors are made. It is a Toyota Denso joint venture and has been for quite a few years. They have some issues.

yes they do!!! .. when you put the newer ones next to the old ones they look like a cheap toy.

[logic23]

Thanks to everyone else for sharing your experiences.  Definitely makes me hesitate to buy a newer Subaru.  I also vote for the EJ22 being an excellent engine overall.

 

Those charts don't really show an increase in reliability, at least for cars 2005+.  If the average age of a car in 2013 was 11 years, that would be a 2002 (2003MY?).  If anything it shows an increase in reliability in cars built during the 90s.  It also says nothing about how many repairs or tows per year those vehicles require to stay on the road.  One problem with things like the JD power quality surveys is that they show problems per 1000 cars.  That problem could be a glovebox light burned out or an engine seized up.

 

Is some portion of this due to reduced maintenance or even simple things like how often people check their oil, like Numbchux said?  That doesn't explain things like power windows or starters that (should) require no maintenance.

 

Also, as grossgary said, most people who buy new cars are more concerned about performance and styling than fuel economy and reliability.  Just look at the graph above, if the average new car owner keeps their car for 6 years and it makes it through the warranty period with few problems, what does the manufacturer care?  Sure, some of them like Jeep and Honda brag about resale value, but I'm guessing that's a very secondary concern.

I agree with everything said but the earlier vehicles didn't suffer major failures if you didn't change the oil on time.

There are so many factors that will come back to negate the savings that the upgrades offer:

-yes the car get better gas mileage with the AVCS system buuuuuuuut that system can fail and cost you $2,000 + dollars to fix. Then the car is a lost leader and it get sent to junkyard.  is that saving anyone $ or the environment ?

[logic23]

Thanks to everyone else for sharing your experiences.  Definitely makes me hesitate to buy a newer Subaru.  I also vote for the EJ22 being an excellent engine overall.

 

Those charts don't really show an increase in reliability, at least for cars 2005+.  If the average age of a car in 2013 was 11 years, that would be a 2002 (2003MY?).  If anything it shows an increase in reliability in cars built during the 90s.  It also says nothing about how many repairs or tows per year those vehicles require to stay on the road.  One problem with things like the JD power quality surveys is that they show problems per 1000 cars.  That problem could be a glovebox light burned out or an engine seized up.

 

Is some portion of this due to reduced maintenance or even simple things like how often people check their oil, like Numbchux said?  That doesn't explain things like power windows or starters that (should) require no maintenance.

 

Also, as grossgary said, most people who buy new cars are more concerned about performance and styling than fuel economy and reliability.  Just look at the graph above, if the average new car owner keeps their car for 6 years and it makes it through the warranty period with few problems, what does the manufacturer care?  Sure, some of them like Jeep and Honda brag about resale value, but I'm guessing that's a very secondary concern.

I think we can all agree that this is an across the board car manufacturing issue and a general practice of building disposable products.

Its just a shame to see it happen and have to "Mad Max" rig together cars out of the "last quality parts that are made"

its sounds dramatic but its true.  I think the industry or economy will have to hit a tipping point for  quality and longevity to be a selling point and a way to do business.

bummer

[Stelcom66]

I think we can all agree that this is an across the board car manufacturing issue and a general practice of building disposable products.

Its just a shame to see it happen and have to "Mad Max" rig together cars out of the "last quality parts that are made"

its sounds dramatic but its true.  I think the industry or economy will have to hit a tipping point for  quality and longevity to be a selling point and a way to do business.

bummer

 

In my experience, that applies to more than vehicles. I've replaced a refrigerator and top of the line clothes washer when they were about 5 years old, major repairs required not worth fixing.

 

Referencing Consumer Report's survey, for what it's worth - the annual 2016 auto issue doesn't show any reported engine (or any other significant) failures 2010+ years. Then again, that's the case with most other brands. For 2009, big time (solid black mark) engine failures likely from you know what. If/when the time is right - I'd still consider a 2010 era Outback, I can only hope the head gasket failures reported on the newer ones are exceptions. 

Edited February 5, 2017 by Stelcom66

[Fairtax4me]

Subaru gets their parts from the same suppliers as every other vehicle. The plastic pulley isn't a problem limited to Subaru. Those are something that really has to be replaced every time the belts are replaced. The bearings in them are just not the same quality they used to be, and that affects everything on the road. Mercedes, BMW, ford, GM, VW (as I'm sure you know), etc., all have problems with plastic pulleys.

 

I do agree on the head gasket problems, and especially the rod bearing problems. I've held out on buying any Subarus in the 05+ years due to those problems, and others. The interior quality in the mid-2000 years is pretty horrible IMO. Cheap plastic panels that rattle on every little bump. Uncomfortable seats, poor quality electronics, cheaper switches, window motors... The list could go on and on.

[CNY_Dave]

I agree with everything said but the earlier vehicles didn't suffer major failures if you didn't change the oil on time.

There are so many factors that will come back to negate the savings that the upgrades offer:

-yes the car get better gas mileage with the AVCS system buuuuuuuut that system can fail and cost you $2,000 + dollars to fix. Then the car is a lost leader and it get sent to junkyard.  is that saving anyone $ or the environment ?

 

What's 'on time'?

 

We shoot for 5000 miles.

 

As far as sludge goes, is it a heat (coking) issue or a too-cool oil problem?

For us, it is pretty rare the car starts and drives less than 20 miles.

[rocketman]

I recall Emily from CCR saying hard to order parts for because of different configurations.

[logic23]

What's 'on time'?

 

We shoot for 5000 miles.

 

As far as sludge goes, is it a heat (coking) issue or a too-cool oil problem?

For us, it is pretty rare the car starts and drives less than 20 miles.

Yeah 3-5000 miles is a good aim.

The issue/problem with the newer motors is the restrictions in the oil flow at the valves and the filters. the screen type filters are easily clogged and collapse causing a worse issue

[logic23]

Subaru gets their parts from the same suppliers as every other vehicle. The plastic pulley isn't a problem limited to Subaru. Those are something that really has to be replaced every time the belts are replaced. The bearings in them are just not the same quality they used to be, and that affects everything on the road. Mercedes, BMW, ford, GM, VW (as I'm sure you know), etc., all have problems with plastic pulleys.

 

I do agree on the head gasket problems, and especially the rod bearing problems. I've held out on buying any Subarus in the 05+ years due to those problems, and others. The interior quality in the mid-2000 years is pretty horrible IMO. Cheap plastic panels that rattle on every little bump. Uncomfortable seats, poor quality electronics, cheaper switches, window motors... The list could go on and on.

Yep everyone is doing it :/ and its only getting worse/cheaper stuff.

[axgutt]

This is leaving me with a real quandary as far as what to get for my next car. I ran one '95 Legacy to 386,000 miles, and my current '95 Legacy is up to 366,000 miles. It's definitely showing it's age, and hopefully it will hold on a bit longer. The thought of buying a 20 year old car isn't so appealing given the advances in safety features, but I also don't relish the thought getting something that's almost certain to be less reliable.

[Stelcom66]

That is an amazing amount of miles, another tribute to the great 2.2L engine.

[GeneralDisorder]

-I have seen engines under 100k throw rods:(normal oil level, no hard driving, regular oil changes). RING FAILURE

-under 100k A/C compressor failures. Pre 2004 i have only replaced 2 compressors since i started working on them

-98k AVCS failure that has caused the engines to burn up valves.

-120k-150k turbo failures ( not driven hard) that destroy the engine with shrapnel.

-Head Gasket Issue never fixed and still seeping/failing

-tons of window motor failures. I have maybe replaced 1 motor in 14 years in the 1990-2004 models

-Cheaper ( non serviceable) starter put on all vehicles. previously these were only installed on the foresters and imprezas

-early power steering pump failures. The earlier models pumps usually made it to 140-160 before leaking. These new models are failing around 120k

-plastic intake manifolds. When VW started using plastic parts in the the 90's it was the last straw for me and I stopped working on them.

Rings, rod bearings, and turbo failures are all from people not using synthetic. Subaru's only mistake was in not recommending synthetic till far too late. The turbochargers are not made by Subaru but do require quality oil or you will take out the thrust bearings. The 2.5 has a piston design that demands synthetic or you will clog the oil control rings and return ports.

 

AVCS..... I assume you are talking about the filter screens. Yes they should be removed and discarded once the engine has 15k+ miles on it. They are really only there for break in and to catch stray sealant from assembly, etc. Subaru should have recommended removal after break in. They got rid of them on the turbochargers after about 08 or 09.

 

The starters really don't have a high failure rate. True they aren't serviceable but that's the trend. Labor is expensive and skilled labor doubly so. Shops are no longer expected to know how to rebuild these components and the parts aren't available to do so. That's a whole different discussion but no competitor is any different in this respect so complaining about it with regard to Subaru is ignorant of the industry as a whole.

 

Power steering pumps are fine if you don't cavitate them. With remote reservoirs you have to periodically replace the supply hose and o-ring. It is critical they don't suck air.

 

I have not seen a single failure related to Subaru's plastic intake manifolds. They improve performance and longevity of the hoses, etc because they don't get hot like the aluminum ones do and cook everything attached to them (as quickly).

 

Head gaskets were/are fixed in 2010. All previous models can use the 770 gasket and benefit from the improved design.

 

Window motors do fail, yes. I will concede this one. But it's usually only once in the life of the car and usually only the drivers window. It's $220 and takes less than an hour to swap it.

 

All in all Subaru has done a fantastic job making their cars easier to work on over the years. They continually simplify and improve their designs.

 

If it's rebuildable components you are looking for you will have to look outside of consumer products to find them. They don't exist in any modern car company's inventory. Plastics do sometimes suck. But again you won't find any modern car that isn't built this way. Most are worse in fact. Subaru has limited their use compared to what we see on the German and American cars.

 

You can rant all you like about it but Subaru is no different than any other car company. I don't disagree with you. I don't own anything personally newer than 91 other than the pretty one's 99 Legacy and the shop's 07 Forester XT show car.

 

GD

Edited February 13, 2017 by GeneralDisorder

[LeolaPA]

I have been a mechanic for 25+ years first as a mainly VW mechanic and now and a specializing in Subarus for the past 14.  I don't get to post here as much as i 

-plastic intake manifolds. When VW started using plastic parts in the the 90's it was the last straw for me and I stopped working on them.

   Plastic is cheap and will fail and most of the time be an expensive part. ......  forum.

Craig

I started a topic on aluminum Ebay radiators a couple days ago.  I have a 95 Legacy wagon with the 2.2 motor, and have replaced the radiator twice already due to plastic failure.  One person recommended using a 96 GT radiator which has metal tanks, but I'm not sure my fans will fit that.  Have you ever done that?    Do you have some other input on that topic?

[GeneralDisorder]

I started a topic on aluminum Ebay radiators a couple days ago.  I have a 95 Legacy wagon with the 2.2 motor, and have replaced the radiator twice already due to plastic failure.  One person recommended using a 96 GT radiator which has metal tanks, but I'm not sure my fans will fit that.  Have you ever done that?    Do you have some other input on that topic?

 

Go to www.car-part.com and find the fans you need if they won't fit. 

 

Compare the fan diagram and part numbers on Subaru's online parts database - parts.subaru.com

 

Frankly there is nothing wrong with using a quality plastic unit. Get a Koyo or a CSF. The Spectra ones are junk and we have seen a high failure rate with them. The good plastic ones will last about 10 years. Welded aluminium is good for maybe 20 years. Brass/copper is good for 30+. The brass/copper factory radiator in my '69 GMC pickup is still going - 48 years later. You can have them made if you look around for someone in your area that does old radiator repairs and fabrication. There's a guy down the street from me that has been doing it for 40 years. Act fast though these guys are retiring and dropping dead on the job. 

 

GD

Edited February 14, 2017 by GeneralDisorder

[Naked Buell]

Awesome GD is back on. 

[NV Zeno]

Yep.. good to hear ya, GD

[LeolaPA]

Go to www.car-part.com and find the fans you need if they won't fit. 

 

Compare the fan diagram and part numbers on Subaru's online parts database - parts.subaru.com

 

Frankly there is nothing wrong with using a quality plastic unit. Get a Koyo or a CSF. The Spectra ones are junk and we have seen a high failure rate with them. The good plastic ones will last about 10 years. Welded aluminium is good for maybe 20 years. Brass/copper is good for 30+. The brass/copper factory radiator in my '69 GMC pickup is still going - 48 years later. You can have them made if you look around for someone in your area that does old radiator repairs and fabrication. There's a guy down the street from me that has been doing it for 40 years. Act fast though these guys are retiring and dropping dead on the job. 

 

GD

I didn't hear much on this forum for a couple days, so I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the all-aluminum Ebay radiator.  The guy has over 300 positive feedbacks and only 2 negative in a year, and I just figured his radiator will take my fans and my top mount, so in the long run it could easily be replaced with something else if needed.  Thanks for responding!  I'll post my results on the other topic, or maybe start a new one.

[screwbaru2]

Old post I know but worth bumping.  I just told my wife this past weekend it seems the newer Suboos get, the lower the quality seems to be.  She as a 2006 OB sedan LL Bean 3.0L. w/ 80K mi.  The PS is whining like a baby even after a fluid change.  The glove compartment was removed to change the cabin filter sand it's never been the same.  Currently I'm trying to figure out what is making that roaring noise @40+MPH coming from the back.  It's not wheel bearings both are solid and turn smooth.  Nice motor, but the rest is junk.

 

My 2004 OBW 3.0L has almost zero issues.  There's a bad ground somewhere but it is a 12 year old car.  The cruise control doesn't work well but neither did the one in my 97; doing the same thing in fact. It just turned 150K last week.  We both had 2003's that were mostly trouble free.

[1 Lucky Texan]

you probably just need an o-ring on that adapter on top of the PS pump. likely it's sucking in air. not uncommon across several models - I had that problem on both my soobs.

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by 1 Lucky Texan

[GeneralDisorder]

Old post I know but worth bumping.  I just told my wife this past weekend it seems the newer Suboos get, the lower the quality seems to be.  She as a 2006 OB sedan LL Bean 3.0L. w/ 80K mi.  The PS is whining like a baby even after a fluid change.  The glove compartment was removed to change the cabin filter sand it's never been the same.  Currently I'm trying to figure out what is making that roaring noise @40+MPH coming from the back.  It's not wheel bearings both are solid and turn smooth.  Nice motor, but the rest is junk.

 

My 2004 OBW 3.0L has almost zero issues.  There's a bad ground somewhere but it is a 12 year old car.  The cruise control doesn't work well but neither did the one in my 97; doing the same thing in fact. It just turned 150K last week.  We both had 2003's that were mostly trouble free.

You need a hose and an o-ring for the PS. No big deal.

 

The roaring noise is a wheel bearing. You won't feel it by turning the wheel and checking for play. You need to stethoscope it on a lift at speed.

 

These are problems that all Subaru's going back to 99 had. Talk about premature bearing failure - ask the early Forester owners, or anyone that owned an SVX.

 

The old PS pumps leaked like crazy from the seals. That goes back to 90 or earlier. They all do it.

 

There is no difference in quality between the cars. You people have anecdotal evidence based on one or two cars and their specific failures. I work on hundreds - probably in the neighborhood of up to 100 a month. Almost exclusively Subaru.

 

And seriously - get off it about plastics. They are here to stay. I just replaced a broken plastic heater control on an '86 Subaru GL with 130k on it. I also broke about a million plastic bits doing a heater core on a 1990 Corvette last week. Plastic is here to stay and has been for *quite* some time. And some of it is quite good actually - glass fiber reinforced ABS and Nylon has higher tensile strength than Aluminum in some cases and for some applications has greatly enhanced thermodynamic properties.

 

GD

[CNY_Dave]

Our '06 OBW serpentine belt idler pulley is metal, at least.

[AdventureSubaru]

Mine too.

 

No complaints here. We had an 06 for a while. Currently have an 05 and an 2011.

 

Not a fan of the throttle in theory. I like the K.I.S.S. approach on my cars (keep it simple stupid) Also the rear bushing design for the front control arms. When did that seem like a good idea. Wasn't aware of any issue with the 1990-04 style. What were they trying to improve there?

 

Overall, they aren't without quirks but doesn't seem any more or less than prior generations.

[ThosL]

Wow, I thought the pre-2004 Subarus were the problems with all the head gasket failures.  Personally I would like everything manual as much as possible from windows to tranny to hi and low gear and stick shift.  You are basically screwed with extensive electrical or computer problems.   I guess I should be happy with my under $1000 97 limited.   

[1 Lucky Texan]

didn't really know where to put this - but stop/start was mentioned earlier in this thread so;

 

I was a service advisor at subaru. the easiest way to permanently disable the start/stop system without any warning lights is to have a genuine towbar fitted, and dig out the magnet from the inside of the 7 pin plug. this way a signal is being sent to the car saying you might be towing, which disables the auto start stop system without any warning lights or other symptoms. I suspect it will probably work the same on other models. Your welcome everyone.

 

555

 

this 'probably' means there is a tow detection wire somewhere in the harness in the rear of new models where a 'hack' might be performed to disable a stop/start system.

 

fyi

 

 

 

[3Pin]

I have  had 95's, 97's 2000's & 2005, and have an outback 2014 3.6 and a Impreza 2018's.   I liked the 90's cars, but they rode lower and not as well as the next gen for sure.  Great vehicles though especially the 2.2 95 engine.   The 2000-2004's were tanks.  Great cars, my son is still driving my 02 LL Bean.    Yeah, window regulators after 04  and interiors don't hold up like the earlier ones  , but on the flip side, my 2014 has had oil changes, brakes an tires and I just crossed 60K.  My wife's Impreza has 6K on it, so way to early to tell on that unit, but I still think they make a hell of a car.   They are all under pressure to reduce weight and increase MPG and shorts cuts get taken by all of the car makers.  

In comparison, My Honda Odyssey at the office has had issues with the variable cylinder management and just under warranty had to have the rings and a piston replaced at 60k. They upgraded the computer firmware so it would kick in so much and foul the plugs.  My KIA minivan at the office was decent but could not handle the Midwest ice and salt and started disintegrating around me. At 114K, it had to go. My neighbors corolla 2005 with 110k loves to burn oil and she is due for an engine replacement.

Not to be a punch drinker, but I think you get my point.