garbo88 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Could use some guidance about a repair, and sorry for the long background here. 2001 Outback 2.5 AT, 130K miles. Whining sound under load, stops as soon as you let off the gas but then there's a whispery sort of scraping sound as the transmission downshifts into each gear while coasting. This has been going on for some time. Have been to 3 mechanics with varying opinions. Long time mechanic #1 said, yeah, it's the differential going bad, costs a lot to fix, just ignore it, it will get worse but might as well just drive it until the whole transmission goes and then redo the whole thing if you're going to keep the car. Mechanic #2 (transmission shop) said yeah, sounds like the differential, need to pull/rebuild the transmission, minimum $1600 probably more but won't know until we go in. Time cut to this week, where there's suddenly a weird choking shimmy while turning right and accelerating up hill. Mechanic #3 (different transmission shop) says probably 2 separate problems. First, he noted torn CV boot/axle needs replacing front driver side, which may or may not have been the cause of the shimmy but couldn't be replicated. Second, in his opinion the differential noise is coming from one of the bearings (he called them the front carrier bearings). He said there is a way to get at them without having to pull the differential, but it is difficult and about 20% of the time he's done it there is "gaulding" upon removal of the part of differential case that is the access point, in which case it's impossible to put back together and the whole housing would need to be replaced which would mean having to pull everything and could wind up being really expensive. (Apparently nobody sells just the differential case separate of the transmission.) He recommends doing the bearings and axle at the same time since he'd have to pull the axle to get at the differential case anyway so it would save on labor; replacing the carrier bearing/s (he thinks it is a particular one because the whine is only under acceleration, not coasting); and adding some thicker fluid in the event the problem is actually the transfer case going bad. And also that if the gear in the differential has been damaged by the bad bearing then the fix might not cure the noise 100%. Oh, and that there's no book time shown for the bearing repair he's talking about but it probably is about 5 hours but he's not sure it depends what happens. So, minimum $500 + parts with a risk of killing the differential rather than fixing it. And so, here are my questions: 1. Is it possible that the whining noise is due simply to the axle issue, and that replacing just the axle would fix the noise, and all the mess about the diff bearings and gaulding and the rest is malarkey? Would it make sense to try an axle replacement (have seen deals for under $200) first or would it indeed be dumb to (potentially) pay 2x for labor? 2. Does anyone know anything about the way he's planning to get a the bearings, the gaulding and the odds that attempting the repair might result in the untimely death of a car that is currently running (albeit noisily)? i.e. are the odds really 80/20, or is this repair actually common and no big deal, or is it actually more like 20/80 and the guy's angling for a whole costly rebuild when things go south? Don't really have $3K to spend on a new (used/rebuilt) transmission. 3. Does anybody know the part number for the carrier bearings and seals? He suggested that if we are going to go ahead it would make sense to pre-order them and bring them with me when I drop off the car, that the Subie dealer here is really slow to order parts + expensive + not as good parts as other brands like Timken. I don't find "carrier bearings" listed; is there another name for them? Or are they part of a larger set? Opinions most appreciated, including whether it's time to move on from this car... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreaseMonkey03 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 That depends, are there any other known issues or upcoming repairs? How much do you personally want to keep it? Anything at this point is a crap shoot to be honest. If you know for sure that you want to keep the car, I personally would probably source another unit and have it rebuilt and then swap them out at some point or wait until it goes. Then you can sell your old unit. If you're not sure if it's worth the repair, but don't want to get into another car, drive it until it breaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 has the timing belt system ever been serviced on the car?(shoulda been done around 2010 or 25K miles ago) if not - you've got that expense. if you want to do more troubleshooting, axles can be swapped side-to-side. maybe the symptom will follow or change. are there any pieces of metal on the front diff's magnet - or just a small amount of sludge? have you searched car-part.com or LKQ for a used transmission? Everyone fights the axle issue - most often, used Subaru axles rebuilt with new grease and boots are still better than new or rebuilt aftermarket. If your axles are aftermarket, there's a 100X greater chance of them being bad. If they are original but the boots have been torn for a long time - of course it's possible for them to be bad, but best replacement is still used OEM axles than have been regreased/booted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 hard to say without being there in person, it sounds like the diff but hate to say that over the internet on a car i've never seen, driven, or touched...could be an axle still, maybe. 1. i'd just replace the transmission. $500 trans $500 install and you're never thinking about it again for $1,000. but since i do my own work that's easy for me to say, it's not my $500. Some places will install a transmission even cheaper - a transmission shop can do it really fast (trans jacks, they do it every day) - so they "can" charge the cheapest just because it's easier for them but they're also accustomed to high dollar rebuilds and it may not be worth their time to give good deals so to speak. But it's worth a call "How much to install a used transmission?" www.car-part.com there's a bunch in CA for $450 - $600 $450 415-821-3100 $480 1-800-424-2002 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garbo88 Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share Posted February 10, 2017 Thanks for the input everyone. Calling around for quotes to swap out the transmission is a great idea. Shop #2 said that it would be $750 labor just to take out the old one & open it up, but based on your $500 number maybe I can do better. Shop #3 guy warned against buying used because you don't know what you're getting, and might just have the same problem in 6 months, since most of what's out there is high mileage. Interesting idea about having a used one rebuilt while I wait for this one to die, depending on rebuild and swap costs. To answer question above, the car has had timing belt, serpentine/alternator belts & tensioners, rotors, brakes, battery and tires all done in the last 2-3 years. At some point the driver side axle was done once already and I feel pretty sure they did not reboot the original part, just swapped out for a cheap aftermarket one. I didn't know any better. A bit longer ago had the head gasket done, front shocks/struts. Back end is kind of squeaky and needs new rear bushings/shocks/struts, but can live with it for now. Otherwise little things like window seals, dings and scratches. Nothing major except, you know, the whole transmission and differential thing. I've loved this car, been my daily driver since new and had planned to keep it until 200K miles to let my kids use when they learn to drive in a couple of years, an idea which they HATE by the way because UNCOOL . But at the moment $ is tight. If I can spend $1000 to keep it going I will, but the idea of the cheaper repair going wrong and leading to $3500 in new (used) transmission on a 16 year old car seems kind of unwise when I could get a decent replacement used car for around $10K. That's why I was looking for more info about the differential bearing repair mechanic #3 was talking about, to see if anyone had done it and if his quote about the odds for success were accurate or exaggeration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreaseMonkey03 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 even if it's the bearing and just the bearing, seems silly to pay all that labor just to replace a bearing. Especially without knowing what else could go wrong in the near future. Kind of like doing a timing belt without replacing the water pump. If you're gonna rip it out anyway, may as well replace with a rebuilt even if just for peace of mind. Or you could always have yours rebuilt in the process. That's just what I would do or recommend to a customer. Most people replace with a junkyard unit and say a prayer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 most wrecks were driving well when they crashed so, a used trans is not an uncommon repair. There's risk and/or money in some uncomfortable ratio no matter how you proceed. If you really want to save the car for a while, maybe a well-known transmission shop (or even a dealer!) willing to warranty the entire trans for a significant period is a way to proceed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 The lurching could be a bad suspension bushing or ball joint, or a bad inner CV joint. The inners can act fine then vibrate like hell, then be fine again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garbo88 Posted February 11, 2017 Author Share Posted February 11, 2017 The lurching could be a bad suspension bushing or ball joint, or a bad inner CV joint. The inners can act fine then vibrate like hell, then be fine again. Thanks for the tip! I think this might be what it was, because it happened once and I thought the car was dying, but it's been fine ever since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 (edited) The bearing repair sounds unlikely for Subarus. I haven't attempted that but I've done some trans disassembly, scanned FSMs numerous times regarding Subaru front diffs and done some minor front diff repair and I think the trans must be dropped, bellhousing removed and front diff disassembled to replace the bearings. Big job a big money backlash and bearing preload need done precisely or the repair will damage more in the ensuing miles. I've seen that happen. Front diff repair followed by front diff failure. I totally understand the hesitation of used trans. That said if you buy smart, from a wreck, it's pretty easy to get into a fine transmission. In the end it's the difference between risk of used, risk of rebuilds, risk of another used car. None of those options are 100% warranty driven assuredness with no risk. So to be accurate they need to compared quantitatively. A known good part that was tested was running and driving isnt much more risky than a current engine or had your transmission with no issues that one wouldn't even think about or question. Also there's enough transmission rebuild issues after the fact I'm not at all sold on longevity and value of repair for rebuilt transmissions. I've seen tons of issues with them, it's easy to google, I would find it very hard to choose that route myself. Google it and you'll see. So you might be better off with another vehicle. Though even a used car can have risk it's just a matter of what's acceptable and realizing that unless you're buying new or long term warranties you're comparing various risks with possibly little substantial differences - differences which vary by experience, resources and individuals. Edited February 11, 2017 by grossgary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 No one else with comments on that bearing repair? Has the fluid been drained and checked yet? Id drain the fluid and check for materials. You may even be able to ask a UOA lab if an oil analysis would tell you if there's bearing or front diff particulates suspended in the gear oil? If the bearing and R&P materials are different then that may be determinant as to wether it's a bearing or the R&P (which is like $800 just for the parts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 No one else with comments on that bearing repair? Has the fluid been drained and checked yet? Id drain the fluid and check for materials. You may even be able to ask a UOA lab if an oil analysis would tell you if there's bearing or front diff particulates suspended in the gear oil? If the bearing and R&P materials are different then that may be determinant as to wether it's a bearing or the R&P (which is like $800 just for the parts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 (edited) "Time cut to this week, where there's suddenly a weird choking shimmy while turning right and accelerating up hill. " Doesn't this also sound like torque bind? "He said there is a way to get at them without having to pull the differential, but it is difficult and about 20% of the time he's done it there is "gaulding" upon removal of the part of differential case that is the access point, in which case it's impossible to put back together and the whole housing would need to be replaced which would mean having to pull everything and could wind up being really expensive." I'm not sure how different the differential and it's bearings and their housing is from the 5spds which are the only ones I've worked on, but if it's like the manual, I don't see how this could be done successfully, but then I don't know everything, by a stretch. But the auto could easily be different. Here's a breakdown of the workings of the diff, not much help for the questions you asked since you can't see what kind of access you have to the workings after taking out the bit that adjusts the backlash This link includes the part numbers of the parts in question. I think Subaru uses Timken bearings, at least for several model years. But regardless, if you can manage to find the trade number, the industry standard number for those bearings, you can order them from Granger for a lesser price, same bearing just not marked up as being a different bearing sold by Subaru, something that mechanic probably knows. http://opposedforces.com/parts/legacy/us_b12/type_21/train/differential_transmission/ "(Apparently nobody sells just the differential case separate of the transmission.)" This is because the front diff is integrated into the transmission, so there is no separate case to sell. The bearing repair sounds unlikely for Subarus. I haven't attempted that but I've done some trans disassembly, scanned FSMs numerous times regarding Subaru front diffs and done some minor front diff repair and I think the trans must be dropped, bellhousing removed and front diff disassembled to replace the bearings. Big job a big moneybacklash and bearing preload need done precisely or the repair will damage more in the ensuing miles. I've seen that happen. Front diff repair followed by front diff failure.I totally understand the hesitation of used trans. That said if you buy smart, from a wreck, it's pretty easy to get into a fine transmission.In the end it's the difference between risk of used, risk of rebuilds, risk of another used car. None of those options are 100% warranty driven assuredness with no risk. So to be accurate they need to compared quantitatively.A known good part that was tested was running and driving isnt much more risky than a current engine or had your transmission with no issues that one wouldn't even think about or question.Also there's enough transmission rebuild issues after the fact I'm not at all sold on longevity and value of repair for rebuilt transmissions. I've seen tons of issues with them, it's easy to google, I would find it very hard to choose that route myself. Google it and you'll see.So you might be better off with another vehicle. Though even a used car can have risk it's just a matter of what's acceptable and realizing that unless you're buying new or long term warranties you're comparing various risks with possibly little substantial differences - differences which vary by experience, resources and individuals. Edited February 11, 2017 by lostinthe202 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 If the mechanics all agree that you've got some time, you could source a unit from one of the places suggested above, have it rebuilt, then put it in once the old one breaks, this spreads out the cost, though any kind of warranty you get won't be worth anything while it's sitting in your garage waiting for install. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garbo88 Posted February 11, 2017 Author Share Posted February 11, 2017 Thanks so much for the wisdom. The diagram is really helpful, but a little different than the one the mechanic printed to show me. FWIW, the part he thinks is the problem is the one labeled #2, most likely the one on the driver side. The way he would get at it is by heating and unscrewing the part labeled #9 in your diagram, which is threaded into the outer housing. This is the tricky bit that can cause the problem because the gaulding problem is either there or not regardless of how careful he is; the part is originally installed with no lubricant and the aluminum threads can sort of fuse upon install. If that's the case then it can't be reassembled after he opens it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garbo88 Posted February 11, 2017 Author Share Posted February 11, 2017 Maybe I'll just order up a salvage transmission and online tutorial myself on how to rebuild it. Worked for the washing machine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Just be aware that it doesn't always work out. I tore into a '96 outback's 5spd to change a bad bearing going off of a great writeup I found on this board, didn't know what I was doing, didn't know if it would work. It did, but the moral of the story is, only venture down that road if you're prepared for it to not work out. For me, I love knowing how the world works. Even if I fail at what I attempted, I know more about it than if I hadn't done anything. But back to biz, If you have the tools to rebuild a trans, you probably have the tools to instal one. Why not get a used trans, put it in, then put the old one on the bench, drag your kids away from their devices and learn how to rebuild it together? That way, when they are of driving age, they will be able to change their own oil, change their own brakes, ya know, just generally know how to do things for themselves. Ha, now I'm getting preachy, sorry. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garbo88 Posted February 11, 2017 Author Share Posted February 11, 2017 Ha! It's an excellent idea! Unfortunately, I have the moxie but not the tools. If only it could be accomplished with a hot glue gun and a sewing machine, or those little screwdrivers for computers and cell phones, I'd be all over it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreaseMonkey03 Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Sounds like you need to make good friends with people that have tools. Shouldn't cost you more than a few beers. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Yonkahs! Longtime home of my clan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreaseMonkey03 Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Born and raised Dave. Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lverano Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Could use some guidance about a repair, and sorry for the long background here. 2001 Outback 2.5 AT, 130K miles. Whining sound under load, stops as soon as you let off the gas but then there's a whispery sort of scraping sound as the transmission downshifts into each gear while coasting. This has been going on for some time. Have been to 3 mechanics with varying opinions. Long time mechanic #1 said, yeah, it's the differential going bad, costs a lot to fix, just ignore it, it will get worse but might as well just drive it until the whole transmission goes and then redo the whole thing if you're going to keep the car. Mechanic #2 (transmission shop) said yeah, sounds like the differential, need to pull/rebuild the transmission, minimum $1600 probably more but won't know until we go in. Time cut to this week, where there's suddenly a weird choking shimmy while turning right and accelerating up hill. Mechanic #3 (different transmission shop) says probably 2 separate problems. First, he noted torn CV boot/axle needs replacing front driver side, which may or may not have been the cause of the shimmy but couldn't be replicated. Second, in his opinion the differential noise is coming from one of the bearings (he called them the front carrier bearings). He said there is a way to get at them without having to pull the differential, but it is difficult and about 20% of the time he's done it there is "gaulding" upon removal of the part of differential case that is the access point, in which case it's impossible to put back together and the whole housing would need to be replaced which would mean having to pull everything and could wind up being really expensive. (Apparently nobody sells just the differential case separate of the transmission.) He recommends doing the bearings and axle at the same time since he'd have to pull the axle to get at the differential case anyway so it would save on labor; replacing the carrier bearing/s (he thinks it is a particular one because the whine is only under acceleration, not coasting); and adding some thicker fluid in the event the problem is actually the transfer case going bad. And also that if the gear in the differential has been damaged by the bad bearing then the fix might not cure the noise 100%. Oh, and that there's no book time shown for the bearing repair he's talking about but it probably is about 5 hours but he's not sure it depends what happens. So, minimum $500 + parts with a risk of killing the differential rather than fixing it. And so, here are my questions: 1. Is it possible that the whining noise is due simply to the axle issue, and that replacing just the axle would fix the noise, and all the mess about the diff bearings and gaulding and the rest is malarkey? Would it make sense to try an axle replacement (have seen deals for under $200) first or would it indeed be dumb to (potentially) pay 2x for labor? 2. Does anyone know anything about the way he's planning to get a the bearings, the gaulding and the odds that attempting the repair might result in the untimely death of a car that is currently running (albeit noisily)? i.e. are the odds really 80/20, or is this repair actually common and no big deal, or is it actually more like 20/80 and the guy's angling for a whole costly rebuild when things go south? Don't really have $3K to spend on a new (used/rebuilt) transmission. 3. Does anybody know the part number for the carrier bearings and seals? He suggested that if we are going to go ahead it would make sense to pre-order them and bring them with me when I drop off the car, that the Subie dealer here is really slow to order parts + expensive + not as good parts as other brands like Timken. I don't find "carrier bearings" listed; is there another name for them? Or are they part of a larger set? Opinions most appreciated, including whether it's time to move on from this car... Ok, Garbo88, I'll be honest, I ready about the first 3 quarters of your post here and stopped because I pretty much get the gist of it. All these guys responding to you on this thread are very knowledgeable, so I'll let them guide you with whatever your other problem is, but please take my advice on the differential. Step by step, here we go: 1. If you don't already have this stuff, get a good jack, 2 good jack stands, and some wheel chalks. 2. Now jack up your car and drain the fluid from the differential. BE SAFE, and let someone who knows what they are doing help you if you are not mechanically inclined. There's a couple different guys on youtube that can show you how to do it. Here's a good link. 3. You can also watch how CAVEMANJOE does the rear diff as well. 4. Now, for differential fluid, get this stuff only which I'm about to give you a link to. It will quiet your diff noise a little, but more importantly, it'll keep the temp down in your differential. I have a noisy front differential in my 2003 Subaru Outback LL Bean with 190K, and my car has been running like a dream for 15K miles and counting with no problems since I put it in. It's a life saver, and it'll hold off replacing your transmission for a long time...maybe would have indefinitely if you'd of had it in there to begin with. Don't try anything else, I spent good money so I could come on here and tell you this is the best stuff you can get. PERIOD. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/red-58204?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-red-line-synthetic-oil&gclid=COPBgtekidICFcePswoddOIH0w 5. If you end up having a problem with your axels, go straight to Subaru and pay the almost 200 per axel straight from Subaru and I promise you will not regret it. Bring the old axels wth you for core charge. Anything other than OEM Subaru axels is a mistake. Don't second guess me on this, I spent good money so I could come on here and tell you Subaru axels are the only way to go, even if you have to get a used one out of a junk yard. 6. putting in axels is not for the faint of heart, but don't pay your mechanic more than a hundred bucks to install a Subaru axel, it's grunt work, but it's not that big of a deal. 7. If you have bearing trouble or anything like that, go to ebay and just buy a whole assembly, and have someone install it if you can't on your own, again, no more than 100 bucks a side. You should be able to get a front or rear assembly for under 75 bucks shipped off ebay if you ever need it. It's not worth the time to have new bearings pressed in, that is, if you are able to do the labor yourself, getting the whole assembly is way easier. Good Luck, and remember mechanics fix cars for a LIVING, and a lot of them are going to charge the hell out of you, so if you are capable, learn to do as much on your own as possible. Cheers, Lester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Ha! It's an excellent idea! Unfortunately, I have the moxie but not the tools. If only it could be accomplished with a hot glue gun and a sewing machine, or those little screwdrivers for computers and cell phones, I'd be all over it... McGyver is thinking, "have I taught them nothing?" Yeah, it can be hard to get into, but you can get a good starter kit from home depot for about $150, though GreaseMonkey03 has a totally valid point. Another way I've approached tackling things I don't know how to do, barter with someone who does with something I know how to do that they don't. I've had a lot of success in the past with this approach. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garbo88 Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 Thank you everyone! I'm going to start with fluid change and the axle and go from there. I really appreciate all the advice. I will post again with an update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bajajaja Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Any word on the result, garbo? I may be running into a transmission repair/replace decision as well on my 05 Baja. I have the same whine under load above 3500rpm that goes away when the gas is let off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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