Respect for the EA81 and performance mods!

[RAD]

The arrogance astounds me. Unless he's just a really bored/creative troll.

 

He tells us how unreachably expensive it is to do an EJ swap, when so many of us have done them on the cheap.

 

He tells us how ridiculously difficult it is to do, when he's never done ANY motor swap. And we've done this exact swap repeatedly and with great results.

 

He proposes "better" alternatives that are #1. ghastly MORE expensive than an EJ swap. #2. Will take far more work, problem solving, and R&D time. #3. Yield far LESS return for the work and #4. Destroy the reliability he claims to love in these motors.

 

Despite this being verifiable history and patently obvious by way of basic math, even when experts in the EXACT field answer the questions with hard facts and learned history, he has to be right - referencing experience that includes somehow "street racing" his 68hp brat and some mechanical knowledge that we're supposed to be impressed with, but does not even encompass fixing the blown headgaskets or swapping a new motor into his dead brat (Which apparently is abandoned illegally somewhere and hidden so the police don't tow it)

 

 

Side note - I love this forum and that everyone has been as gracious and polite in trying to help him. Most forums this would have devolved into a swearfest/poo slinging long ago. I appreciate you guys/gals and the class that this forum demonstrates consistently.

 

Now that it's clear that we're wasting our time trying to teach him anything and that this kid, who can't change a motor himself, is the "expert" and will show us all. I'm staying for the entertainment value. :popcorn:

 

A dose of reality for your own arrogance and presumed expertise....

 

Some months ago when I had the money, I breifly considered doing an engine swap:

 

#1 IT IS NOT EASY! - Some people can brag that they can do it in a weekend - those individuals are rare, and just because 1% of all Subaru freaks can do so does NOT mean it is a reasonable alternative for the other 99% of Subaru freaks.

 

#2: IT IS NOT CHEAP! It requires not just an engine, but replacing almost the entire practical electical system - wiring harness, dash, components, etc. etc. etc.... NOT easy, Costs REAL money, you have to essentially buy another vehicle to sacrifice to do it unless you luck out on all that is necessarily required.

 

#3: Tryying to find someone who can do it AT ALL is difficult to impossible unless one is willing to use vacation time or more than a day or two to travel long distances hauling one or possible two vehicles (one for the parts), and again, IT IS NOT CHEAP, unless someone wants to be a laborious philanthropist who wants to do it for someone just to be an insanely kind individual! - again RARE.

 

#4: Trying to find anyone to work on my Brat AT ALL, much less someone who is really qualified to do so, even less so, someone who is a real Subaru freak or any kind of Subaru expert is difficult to impossible.

In my area, I could not find a decent mechanic who would even work on my Brat, not even changing a head gasket, much less do a rebuild job or an engine swap. Most popular excuse: "Its too old" - What the hell do they care how old it is?!? Do the work, if it runs, they get their money!

I have lost a lot of respect for the average mechanic as a result.

 

#5: I had the money to have it done, and the ONLY guy anywhere near me who could or would do it (and be trusted to know what the hell they were doing, and get it done in a reasonable amount of time, for a reasonable fee) couldn't because he had nowhere to do the work, and I could not work on, or have anyone else work on a vehicle where I lived.

 

I have very little respect for the opinions essentially saying "All you have to do is just..." Yeah, right. Real easy when someone else is supposed to do it!

Everything is supposed to be so easy. The realities of real life and how things really work and turn out says otherwise!

There is rarely only one solution to a problem or project, any view to the contrary is unrealistically limited and ignorant.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2017 by RAD

[Subaru Scott]

[GeneralDisorder]

It IS too old for most professional mechanics.

 

They (I) have to make a living. That living, necessarily, is based on working on vehicles and charging an hourly rate commensurate with that work. EA81's pose a huge logistical nightmare to us.

 

1. Parts, if they are available at all, are hard to get and time consuming to acquire.

 

2. The car is OLD. Increasing by a significant factor the chances of broken fasteners, corrosion, unforseen circumstances and other rabbit hole situations that cost us time and money. It is not economically feasible to work on them.

 

3. The kind of customer you CLEARLY are would preclude me ever touching your car. You have unrealistic expectations, you have an old, unreliable vehicle as your only mode of transportation and in fact are living in the thing. This spells boondoggle for any shop and they would kindly ask you to PFO (Please F**k Off).

 

People that bring me EA cars PAY for the privilege. At this point it's like having a shop work on your classic muscle car. Ain't cheap. The EA customers that come to my shop spend thousands (and not just a few) typically. The cars spend weeks or months in my possession.

 

You want cheap to work on - go buy a Corolla.

 

And stop ranting at us. Jeezus - PFO already!

 

GD

[Phizinza]

I am constantly surprised at how passionate humans can get over trivial things.

 

My advice? Stop talking s#!¥, do what you want, don't complain if you don't get the answers to the questions you're asking (a free to use forum, with freely given advise), and again stop talking s#/+.

 

I've asked many questions and gotten the "wrong" answers. I've even become aggressive, as you have, to those people trying to help. It helped no one and got me no where. I've learnt; now I just do what I want and let everyone puzzle over why I made the choices I have.

 

Go take a breath and get back to wrenching.

[RAD]

It IS too old for most professional mechanics.

 

They (I) have to make a living. That living, necessarily, is based on working on vehicles and charging an hourly rate commensurate with that work. EA81's pose a huge logistical nightmare to us.

 

1. Parts, if they are available at all, are hard to get and time consuming to acquire.

 

2. The car is OLD. Increasing by a significant factor the chances of broken fasteners, corrosion, unforseen circumstances and other rabbit hole situations that cost us time and money. It is not economically feasible to work on them.

 

3. The kind of customer you CLEARLY are would preclude me ever touching your car. You have unrealistic expectations, you have an old, unreliable vehicle as your only mode of transportation and in fact are living in the thing. This spells boondoggle for any shop and they would kindly ask you to PFO (Please F**k Off).

 

People that bring me EA cars PAY for the privilege. At this point it's like having a shop work on your classic muscle car. Ain't cheap. The EA customers that come to my shop spend thousands (and not just a few) typically. The cars spend weeks or months in my possession.

 

You want cheap to work on - go buy a Corolla.

 

And stop ranting at us. Jeezus - PFO already!

 

GD

 

Your LAYERS of attitude and complete lack of respect are really the problem here.

If you were at least factually right in your B.S. you might have a point, however, reality does not bend to your dictates.

 

Prime example: DHL Auto in Medford, Oregon.

That mechanic dispared at working on my Brat, only in that he said "There is so much this car needs!"

He didn't use the pathetic excuse that "Its too old", which is just that. Yes, mechanics need to make a living - did I imply that a mechanic was not going to charge me or something?

That's the deal, or is supposed to be the deal - mechanic does a repair, if done right and the vehicle works, he gets paid. Just that simple.

 

This mechanic was not a selfish, quick-to-excuses, unable mechanic.

Need a few things done, bearings, seals replaced, clutch job, etc, etc.

Was supposed to be a couple days, turned out to take a week, that happens.

 

The whole clutch situation was a disaster, and he said a quote that I have heard many times where old Subarus are concerned: "I don't know how you were able to drive this thing in the condition it was in!"

He had to do machining, replace hard-to-find parts, etc.

When he got it together, the clutch would not engage. Turned out that a previous unknown mechanic had installed a wrong part. He figured this out because he knew what the hell he was doing, and not some milk-toast mechanic who would only take quick, easy money. He was a REAL mechanic, the old fashioned kind, the honest kind.

He got it fixed, it worked great, he had named his price, he got paid. Everybody happy.

 

Yeah, you wouldn't want to work on my Brat because I expect too much, eh? Yeah, I expect a mechanic who is not all "Elite Master" B.S., and who can actually do the job, even if its not quick and easy money every time - that's what honest work is about, you know. You expect everything to be smooth, easy, quick, and all what you want it to be, and in real life and the real world that isn't how it works often.

 

This mechanic was not some narcissitic sel-important so-called expert, just a regular guy with a small garage, but he was a good and honest mechanic, and knew what the hell he was doing.

 

Also - being as you are such a sensitive snowflake of a mechanic, I am no mechanic, although I have long-term experience with older Subarus, and years ago did 95% of my own work, I don't have a fraction of the skills that many of the guys on here do.

However, I have taken an old Brat is extremely bad shape, with serious damage to it, multiple problems, and gotten it back to running without a garage, without all the proper tools or equipment, with almost no money, out in the middle of nowhere, in the dirt and rocks, so apparently I'm twice the mechanic you are!

 

If I can do that, a good mechanic with a garage, the proper tools and equipment, etc. could do it easily in little time!

 

So I'm some kind of idiot who expects the impossible eh?

 

Go blow your conceited, insulting smoke elsewhere, you are not the mechanic you claim to be!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RAD]

I am constantly surprised at how passionate humans can get over trivial things.

 

My advice? Stop talking s#!¥, do what you want, don't complain if you don't get the answers to the questions you're asking (a free to use forum, with freely given advise), and again stop talking s#/+.

 

I've asked many questions and gotten the "wrong" answers. I've even become aggressive, as you have, to those people trying to help. It helped no one and got me no where. I've learnt; now I just do what I want and let everyone puzzle over why I made the choices I have.

 

Go take a breath and get back to wrenching.

 

You know, I would understand and even agree with most of what you said, except for that "Stop talking s#!¥," B.S. !

 

 

 

[GeneralDisorder]

I have no need to proclaim my abilities around here. 

 

BTW - the "Elite Master of the Subaru" is not a pseudonym that I chose, or even typed in myself. It is automatically applied by the board software (or was at one time) to members that have a post count above a certain threshold. I simply have not cared or bothered to change it. I don't proclaim to be the elite master of anything. I know a thing or two and try to help folks around here that will listen to experience - which I have a significant amount of. I've owned more Brat's than you have likely owned cars. 

 

Anything can be fixed. But to not lose your shirt doing it, you will have to charge a price that most people cannot pay. The older the vehicle the more unknown problems you will encounter. It is no longer economically feasible to quote a hard and fast price on any EA repairs. I can quote a ball park but it may cost twice as much and take twice as long... or worse. 

 

I AM honest - and that's why people go into such endeavors knowing the price is dependent on the condition of the vehicle and they WILL be charged for corrosion issues, improper previous repairs that result in delays, and other situations that we cannot foresee. THAT is honest. To empower the customer with the knowledge of what will happen when they bring me such a car. It is fair to us, and to them - as long as they know what's coming. 

 

We have seriously considering an hourly rate that takes some of this into consideration - something like a 2% increase for each year older than 10 or 15 years. It's the price you pay for corrosion and generally abused cars that some hack as been wrenching on in the woods. 

 

It's just the way it is.

 

I am quite sure that with your attitude, if you found someone to work on your car, they most probably are hungry for business. I am not. That is the measure of success in our capitalist economy. Buyer beware - and clearly many have if they are willing to work for you on a vehicle such as you have described. I frankly wouldn't want it on my property - it would probably drive away business. 

 

GD

Edited June 12, 2017 by GeneralDisorder

[RAD]

I think I have identified what is really wrong with the minor controversy regarding keeping an EA81 engine and improving it.

There are obvious reasons to an EJ engine swap, IF you have the money, the skill or mechanic with skill, can do without your Subaru for up to a month or more depending on circumstances, having to essentially buy a second vehicle and strip it of half its parts, etc.

The proselytes of the EJ swap all forget or disimiss one very simple, important concept.

The older Subarus, and Brats in particular have been loved and had good reutations in various ways - Why? There are reasons for such things, you know.
Some vehicles are loved just for thier looks, even if their performance or drivetrain or reliablility/longevity, etc. is not the best.
Some vehicles are loved for thier mechanical qualities, and not so much for thier looks.
Some vehicles are prized for reasons or lack of reason that really defies logic, reality, tatse or common sense.

The 1st and 2nd Gen Subarus, Brats in particular (I am biased) gave us a little (-or a lot) but of it all.
They are cool vehicles, they were/are forgiveing and reliable vehicles, had 4WD, good gas mileage, etc. etc. etc.
They were/are known for taking you damn near anywhere and everywhere, and in my experience, could take you some places that the best off-roaders with the biggest wheels and even Hum-Vee's couldn't get into for various reasons.

This included the fact that they could "Fit" in and through places the others could not, and that stooped the 'big boys' dead in their tracks with NO hope of going farther.
This included the fact that for a 4WD, they were lighter than most anything else, and would go over soft terrain and not get stuck, where others would.
This included the fact that even if you got yourself into a mess, you had MUCH more chance to get out of it, to fix it, or even to ignore seroius problems, and be able to get back home where someone else would have to call thier friends to come get them out of thier mess.
There are very real reasons why they had the various reputations they did and do, and I could go on for some paragraphs about this from even my own personal experiences, multiplied by the experiences of so many others.

So when everyone else is saying that the answer to everything is "42" (EJ swap), I say, you need to reexamine the question.

What makes an EA81 Subaru (Brat) what it is? What has given it the qualities it has? Just a shell of a body? Looks? Absolutely not!

EJ Engine swap:

You have to essentially buy another vehicle, a mostly good vehicle likely, because you need the engine, the wiring harness, the dash, several other components, and while you're at it, you may as well use the transmission too if you can, and what does that leave of that other vehicle? - Mostly a now empty shell.
Yes, you can search and find this part here and that part there, and that justy means more time, so again, it would make more sense to just buy a second car and almost completely cannibalise it.

Same thing towards the new creation, what is it now? What is left of what it was?
You have essentially gutted your Subaru (Brat) to where what remains of the original is not much more than a shell. - What's the point of that? You may as well have just bought some kit car and put it all into that.
The only good thing about amn old Subaru (Brat) is the shell ?!? - Really ?!? Think about that....

The good qualities of the older Subaru (Brat) are more than just looks, more than just some damned shell!

There are not many EA81 Subarus in the road now, parts are hard to find - is that because they were not a good vehicle, not a good engine, not reliable? Absolutely not!
There are many reasons why they are rare now, and it has nothing to do with any lack of quality or reliability!

Parts are hard to find for 'Model T's' now. They are certainly not known for performance! But people are still rebuilding them!

You want another reason to prove my point?

Let's see.... is it still true? Is is still there?.. Yes, it is... Lets check on a big indicator of value, shall we?....
 

"Top 10 "Scarciest" Cars on AutoTrader.com"
http://www.autotrader.com/car-news/top-10-scarciest-cars-on-autotradercom-130792
 

Circa - October 2011 - Apparently they have not found reason to change it, and it still has truth to it.
#1 Scarciest, most saught after vehicle.
Not the Model 'T', Not the rare old Corvettes.
Not engine-swapped Subarus.
Good, old Brats.
There were an average of 27,000 searches in one month, to find one or two rats for sale.
Do you think they are more or less rare now? You think people are not still looking for them?
When I was in Oregon, not three weeks would go by before someone would try to buy my Brat.
Not one week would go by without someone going out of thier way to compliment my Brat.

In the last two years when I searched Craigslist in Oregon and California, Brats in BAD shape, all primer and stupid stickers, with dents, etc were going for an average of $1,700.
Brats in good shape were going for $5,000 and more!

I guarantee you this is not just because of some cool lookng SHELL!

The EA81 engine was and is not just some piece of junk!
The EA81 is not harder to find parts for than a Model 'T' !

Yeah, we may have to search more, pay more for parts or improvise this and that, but its because what we are working with is LEGENDARY in the first place!

I will likely someday end up with an EJ Swap Brat - as a SECEOND Subaru, but no engine has earned my respect more than the EA81, and I could never bet my very life, going into the middle of nowhere, or to the far side of hell than the EA81.

EJ Swappers - you are in the back seat, lol...







 

[iceageg]

. . . - and that's why people go into such endeavors knowing the price is dependent on the condition of the vehicle  . .

GD

 

This is in large part why I am currently a month + into my EA81 rebuild.  Finding parts, deciding to send the cam off to delta, weber or not, etc.  Hell, I spent a week just working on two of the rusted intake manifold bolts and one of the egr bolts in hopes (successfully thank the gods) that I would not strip or break them off.  It's not a matter of if it can be done or not.  Just need to be honest with yourself about the cost and effort involved and plan accordingly.  Especially if you are venturing into uncharted water.

Edited June 12, 2017 by iceageg

[RAD]

I have no need to proclaim my abilities around here. 

 

BTW - the "Elite Master of the Subaru" is not a pseudonym that I chose, or even typed in myself. It is automatically applied by the board software (or was at one time) to members that have a post count above a certain threshold. I simply have not cared or bothered to change it. I don't proclaim to be the elite master of anything. I know a thing or two and try to help folks around here that will listen to experience - which I have a significant amount of. I've owned more Brat's than you have likely owned cars. 

 

Anything can be fixed. But to not lose your shirt doing it, you will have to charge a price that most people cannot pay. The older the vehicle the more unknown problems you will encounter. It is no longer economically feasible to quote a hard and fast price on any EA repairs. I can quote a ball park but it may cost twice as much and take twice as long... or worse. 

 

I AM honest - and that's why people go into such endeavors knowing the price is dependent on the condition of the vehicle and they WILL be charged for corrosion issues, improper previous repairs that result in delays, and other situations that we cannot foresee. THAT is honest. To empower the customer with the knowledge of what will happen when they bring me such a car. It is fair to us, and to them - as long as they know what's coming. 

 

We have seriously considering an hourly rate that takes some of this into consideration - something like a 2% increase for each year older than 10 or 15 years. It's the price you pay for corrosion and generally abused cars that some hack as been wrenching on in the woods. 

 

It's just the way it is.

 

I am quite sure that with your attitude, if you found someone to work on your car, they most probably are hungry for business. I am not. That is the measure of success in our capitalist economy. Buyer beware - and clearly many have if they are willing to work for you on a vehicle such as you have described. I frankly wouldn't want it on my property - it would probably drive away business. 

 

GD

 

You are one of those people who are so full of your own opinion that

you will never respect other opinions, and will continue to degrade

opposing oppinions.

 

Like I said, I fixed my Brat with a range of serious problems out in the dirt and rocks.

 

That mechanic in Oregon, you insult him too, you jerk. He has a line of vehicles and customers waiting to do business with him, to do business with him means being on a waiting list.

He is, and has proven himself a better mechanic than you are for a certainty. Your own statements versus his performance make that clear to me.

 

Which is better - a mechanic who can do the job, or a mechanic with an endless list of excuses why not to do the job?

 

You would not be fit to work on my Brat with your attitude, and that mechanic and me, we had no issues, I asked him to do a job, he did the job, he got paid, just that simple.

All you have are excuses and insults and conceit.

Edited June 12, 2017 by RAD

[RAD]

This is in large part why I am currently a month + into my EA81 rebuild.  Finding parts, deciding do send the cam off to delta, weber or not, etc.  Hell, I spent a week just working on two of the rusted intake manifold bolts and one of the egr bolts in hopes (successfully thank the gods) that I would not strip or break them off.  It's not a matter of if it can be done or not.  Just need to be honest with yourself about the cost and effort involved and plan accordingly.  Especially if you are venturing into uncharted water.

 

Why are you doing all that?

 

Seems like a value judgement to me.

You would not be going to all that trouble if you just wanted to drive a Corolla, lol.

 

You're going to all that effort because of the value you have for what you are working on and the vehicle it is going into.

Edited June 12, 2017 by RAD

[iceageg]

Why are you doing all that? . . .

 

Head gasket blew and I ended up with chocolate milk in my oil pan.  My original plan was to casually monitor craigslist for a viable complete EJ donor car, rebuild that engine and do the swap casually during the summer.  The cost difference between the EJ swap and EA rebuild was going to be almost negligible doing it myself.  The only reason I settled on an EA rebuild was that with a little digging I knew I could get the parts on an acceptable timeline while I may still be searching for the right EJ donor car months later.

 

With that decision made the relatively low cost of the Delta cam upgrade seemed like a well documented no brainier as well as going with a Weber.  My son also got to do his 8th grade final paper on how to pull an engine (which he got an A on ).  In the end it wasn't a specific passion for the EA that made me stick with it.  Rather a practical timeline based on need.  I know my EA build won't be as fast or fun as an EJ swap would be, and the long term potential is reduced but I maintain a simple platform that should be reliable for a long time.  Just knowing what the limitations are and being happy with the compromises I make for the benefits I get.

[czny]

Some 8-10 years ago, there was a person on here that did the rant/rave about the EA series of engines.

Refused to listen to what anyone else had to say about "What HE knew" of the greatness of them.

 

He got banned finally.