'93 Loyale oil leak, coolant loss and gurgling noise. Head gasket?

[nillvurt]

My old Subaru named Steve has 268K miles on it and some issues that I have been unable to figure out. These problems may or may not be related:

 

1. Oil leak, it used to be that I would pull to a stop and a nice plume of smoke would billow out of the engine compartment. Then I took the timing belt covers off, since that is cool and nice to do, but now the oil is all over the inside of the hood, especially towards the front and a good amount comes dripping out of the hole where the hood prop goes when I lift the hood. Oil also ends up on top of the engine, but somehow not on the belts. I did the camshaft seals, crankshaft seal, oil pump seals, valve covers and poured UV dye in the oil to try to locate the leak. During idle I could see a small fluorescent drip out of the seal that is inside of, and parallel to the valve cover seal (is that the cam tower seal?) and more glowing oil appearing around the oil pan bolts at the back edge of the oil pan. I'm going to try to do the oil pan gasket next and wondering if there is a seal above that between the engine and the transmission which could be the culprit. I had the clutch redone a 30K miles ago by Maaco, and maybe they did a crappy job with the seal? 

 

It seems crazy that the oil should end up towards the front and on top of the engine, but I know that when I had a leaky drain plug on the transmission, the transmission fluid was all over the front of the tranny…so the wind under the car is a mystery swirl to me…

 

2. Coolant loss. After about a week or so the reservoir tank will be empty and I can usually add a cup of antifreeze in the radiator to top it off. I do not see any drips outside of the engine, so I don't know where the coolant is going. It doesn't seem to be making a lot of white smoke at the tail pipe or smelling excessively sweet. 

 

3. Gurgling/sloshing/dripping noise when I start the engine, accelerate, and turn the engine off. It comes from behind/towards passenger side dash. This seems to be worse when the coolant has ran low, so I suspect that is the problem, since the noise isn't there when the radiator is full.

 

4. Exhaust smell inside car when I turn on inside fan while at standstill. But I can't seem to find the exhaust leak nor smell it under the hood or around the car. I was going to pull the whole exhaust down and inspect it under those metal protective plates, along with changing the exhaust manifold gaskets.

 

I thought it may be the head gasket, but there is no exhaust smell to the antifreeze, the reservoir tank is not oily and doesn't have bubbles, the oil is clean looking (no milky froth), and it doesn't seem to be smoking white out the tail pipe when warmed up. 

 

Obviously these problems may be totally separate, but could also be related.

 

I figured I'd start with the intake manifold gaskets, thermostat and thermostat gasket, oil pan gasket, exhaust manifold gaskets, check exhaust for holes under the shields and go from there…anything I am missing, or am I making too much work out of it? I could just keep running it where it smokes and drips oil, and just keep topping up coolant along with turning off the inside air whenever I drive in town and have to stop a lot.

 

any help is much appreciated!

Edited March 23, 2017 by nillvurt

[DaveT]

You have to find that coolant leak asap, or you will need headgaskets for sure, if you don't already. It could be a slow leak to the exterior or an intake manifold gasket. But once you run over normal temp while low on coolant, the head gaskets get damaged and begin to fail. Exhaust gasses get pumped into the cooling system.

 

Waiting a week to check the level, when you know it's going down is too long.

 

The level on the recovery tank should be monitored. Check the radiator for air by sharply squeezing the upper radiator hose. Listen for gurgles and the jiggle pin.

 

Anything more than a little gurgle of air is some thing to watch. Especially if the level in the recovery is changing.

[DaveT]

Oh, the oil leak. Probably the dried out oring on the passage to the cam tower. By now, if those have never been replaced, they're due.

[MR_Loyale]

For coolant leak try this. Open hood and turn on engine. Pull the throttle cable to Rev engine to 3000 revs while watching for leaks on coolant hoses. Frequently self sealing pin leaks do not leak at idle. Revving increases pressure to expose leaks. Gurgling is air in cooling system. Once you replace leaking hose, refill and burp system.

[nillvurt]

You have to find that coolant leak asap, or you will need headgaskets for sure, if you don't already. It could be a slow leak to the exterior or an intake manifold gasket. But once you run over normal temp while low on coolant, the head gaskets get damaged and begin to fail. Exhaust gasses get pumped into the cooling system.

 

Waiting a week to check the level, when you know it's going down is too long.

 

The level on the recovery tank should be monitored. Check the radiator for air by sharply squeezing the upper radiator hose. Listen for gurgles and the jiggle pin.

Thanks for all the replies!

 

What is the jiggle pin?

 

So at 270K miles, is it normally a good idea to do head gaskets? If I do, what other gaskets should I do when I pull the engine? Cam tower, gasket between the engine and transmission, etc? Do I do anything to the lifters or change valves or anything like that while I am in there? I figure if there is anything that often fails in the depths of the engine, it would be a good idea to change that also while I'm in there. New engine mounts?

[nillvurt]

For coolant leak try this. Open hood and turn on engine. Pull the throttle cable to Rev engine to 3000 revs while watching for leaks on coolant hoses. Frequently self sealing pin leaks do not leak at idle. Revving increases pressure to expose leaks. Gurgling is air in cooling system. Once you replace leaking hose, refill and burp system.

I'll give this a shot and see if I can see any coolant dripping out…thanks! I'll report back

[DaveT]

for the EA82s I've had, I did reseals around 150K miles.  Because oil leaking everywhere.  One or 2 earlier because run low on coolant and over normal temperature caused bubbles in the coolant headgasket failure. 

 

If you go down to the headgaskets, you have no choice but to do all those other seals & gaskets.  Do the valve seals.  Maybe lap the valves, clean off the carbon build up, if any.  I get the head set and conversion kits from Fel Pro, everything in there, except the anaerobic sealant for the cam towers, and don't use the intake gaskets, get those from a dealer.  Also, get the 2 oil passage orings from a dealer.

Big hint - get everything ready to disassemble the engine.  Go for a drive to get it up to normal temperature.  Park it where you are going to work, and immediately and carefully loosen the intake bolts.  It's good to learn the different feel between the bolt yielding vs turning in a corroded hole, so as to reduce the chance of snapping one.  Working the sticky ones back and forth can save a lot of trouble.

Same applies to the head bolts, but it's hard to get that far in fast enough, so a space heater and a heat gun help with those.  I put a meat thermometer in whatever hole is handy near the bolts I'm working on - you want normal operating temp, not much over.

[DaveT]

The jgiggle pin is a part of the thermostat. It's a loose pin in a hole. It allowas a time amount of coolant to leak through, and also giggles when you squeeze the upper radiator hose.

 

Note, oem and high quality aftermarket thermostats have them. Don't use cheap ones that don't.

[nillvurt]

Getting all the parts bought, should be able to get to it in about a month…I have noticed a bit of froth in the coolant right after I drive, and some bubbles on the oil dipstick when I pull it out. I imagine it is early signs, since it is not yet full blown milky mayonnaise. Luckily I don't have to drive much for the next month.

 

I will also be doing the cv axle (original d/s is starting to click), catalytic converter (rusted out and leaks), all the front seals, oil pump seals, intake and exhaust manifold gaskets, timing belts and pulleys, belts, water pump, rear main seal, oil pan gasket, PCV valve. 

 

I got most gaskets from the dealer and the axle, since when I've put on aftermarket ones, they die in a few thousand miles. On the p/s i replaced it 5 times before i got an actual subaru one, which worked. 

 

Anyway, getting off topic here. Is there a list of resources for doing the head gasket and pulling the engine, or should I just keep searching this forum and youtube?

 

Thanks again!

[DaveT]

There are lots of threads with good information. One in particular is about post apocalyptic head resurfacing.

[nillvurt]

cool. So I most probably need to resurface the heads? Hopefully I won't have to do anything to the valves…anything to check for on the valves? It seems pretty fussy and difficult if i need to put in new seats or other valve parts…

[DaveT]

Definitely resurface the heads, otherwise new head gaskets fail.  Find that thread, it isn't difficult or expensive.

 

I clean the valves of they have carbon build up, one at a time as I do the seals.  I have lapped them sometimes also.  Have not needed new seats or any other related parts.

[nillvurt]

I checked the glass and sandpaper method for resurfacing the heads. looks pretty simple if that is the method you mean.

 

When I do the valve seals, do I need a spring compressor tool to get the old ones off?

 

Thanks again!

[DaveT]

yes, the glass method.  You need some way to press the valve springs down, to free the keepers. 

 

I've done it by using a piece of bar with a hole in the middle, and pressing legs on it, on the floor,   as you need hands free to deal with the keepers.  The last time, I used some unistrut to make a lever with a hing, clamped to the workbench,  so I could hold it down with one hand, and handle the keepers with he other.

I used a piece of foam or rag underneath to make a support so the valve didn't just open, which makes it impossible to remove the keepers.

[scoobiedubie]

Check the cylinder head pressure for each cylinder, before you take it apart.  Low pressure indicates a leaky cylinder head gasket or the valves.  High pressure means that side is OK for now. 

 

The gurgling is the coolant inside the radiator is down, most likely due to loose cylinder head bolts.

 

The oil spray under the hood could be a leaky oil cap, or transmission oil from those tubes.  There is no other oil carrying lines on top of the engine.

 

You probably have lose nuts on the bottom of the cylinder that holds the exhaust manifold on.  Check and tighten all connections on the exhaust system under the engine compartment.

[nillvurt]

I pulled my engine out and in the middle of doing everything…doing the clutch and rear main seal since it is accessible and also leaking oil. I found the exhaust leak in the catalytic converter assembly, and still have no idea why the oil ends up under the hood, but doing all my seals, so it should take care of that. 

 

Should I install the Subaru dealer head gaskets dry, or could I put some hylomar Universal blue on those too? I have read all sorts of varying opinions…

 

I am taking the heads in to get machined and checked for cracks, anything special about the heads I need to tell the machine shop? Also going to hand lap the valves, since that seems worth it.

 

Also, if I take the cam tower off, I should make sure the distributor doesn't move, right? Can that camshaft be spun or will that mess things up?

 

Thanks again for all your help!

[DaveT]

You have to take the cam towers off to remove the heads.

 

Lots of oil leaks from that joint anyways. You want to replace the oil channel o ring with an oem one also.

 

 

I've always used Fel Pro head gaskets dry, don't know about the blue stuff.

 

It is completely normal and ok for there to be a small crack in the heads between the valve seats. There is a TSB on it.

 

You will have to reset the distributor if you remove it from it's mounting position, and or remove the cam. You do not have to remove either to remove the cam tower. When you align things for timing belt install it will be in the right place of you leave it in place.

[nillvurt]

You have to take the cam towers off to remove the heads.

 

Lots of oil leaks from that joint anyways. You want to replace the oil channel o ring with an oem one also.

 

 

I've always used Fel Pro head gaskets dry, don't know about the blue stuff.

 

It is completely normal and ok for there to be a small crack in the heads between the valve seats. There is a TSB on it.

 

You will have to reset the distributor if you remove it from it's mounting position, and or remove the cam. You do not have to remove either to remove the cam tower. When you align things for timing belt install it will be in the right place of you leave it in place

 

Yup, got two new OEM oil channel o-rings from the dealer. And I figure some Ultra Grey on the cam tower mating surface and groove like Miles Fox does?

 

Thanks for the heads up on the cracks, that helps to know what is up. I read more about it and will keep me from freaking out if I see them, which it seems like I will.

 

Right now I'm leaning towards just resurfacing the heads with glass and sandpaper if they aren't warped. I'd rather save myself the $150 it would cost at the machine shop. It seems like most people here are having good results with simple methods. I got some lapping compound and blue dye for the valves. I also got new valve seals.

[DaveT]

I have used the glass with sandpaper, no problem.

 

Never did valve seats.

 

On my most recent reseals, I used anaerobic sealant on one engine, on another, I carved out the groove and used o ring stock.

 

I have lapped the valves on a couple, don't know that they needed it. It did not take long to have nice mating surfaces.

[nillvurt]

So, when I was taking off one of the headbolts it snapped. Any tips on how to get it out? And who carries them, or do I have to wait for the dealer? Do they get a bunch of oil on them when they go in or anti-seize copper stuff? I was going to chase the threads with a tap and tie.

 

Also, it seems like the heads are slightly warped in the concave direction (high in the middle) when they came off and I measured with a glass sheet after it was cleaned, so I'll take them in to get machined. I tried to get it out with the sandpaper and glass method, but no luck.

[DaveT]

Penetrating oil and heat.  I have found that getting the block to normal operating temperature before turning any bolts avoids the snapping problem, if care is used to work any that feel sticky loose.  Now if there is anything left exposed when you get the head off, big vise grips and heat, if it's down in the bore, drilling.  Must be centered.  Then very likely to have to helicoil it.

For the heating, I've used a space heater and a heat gun together to get a good soak of heat into everything.

 

Yeah, if the heads are warped that bad, you can tell when you start the sandpaper and glass method.  It would just take too long to get them flat that way.

[nillvurt]

Cool. I may have the machine shop do the drilling…or try a extractor screw.

 

How flat should I get the deck of the block. It seems like it should be resurfaced like the head, but maybe it isn't as critical? Do you just scrape it with a gasket scraper?

[DaveT]

The block should be flat also. I haven't had warped heads yet I'm thinking it would take some serious abuse ro warp the block.

 

Forget an easy out style extractor. They are only meant to work with bolts snapped off in clean holes, not corroded ones. Read too many stories of snapped of extractors in stuck bolts. Then you have a real mess.

[andrsn]

I've snapped off an extractor before, its a bummer... The best luck I've had getting corroded bolts out is LOTS of heat, if you can get the stuck item cherry red hot it should be enough to break down the rust/corrosion bonds. Doing that near critical engine parts can be problematic though given the possibility of warping something. I would only recommend trying that if the bolt is still exposed not if it is flush or near flush with the surrounding surface.

 

I resurfaced my ea81 heads a while back. I machined a super flat/large piece of aluminum and wrapped it in sandpaper. It did a fantastic job. I measured my block while i was at it and it was totally fine. Measure yours, i bet its fine, it would take some serious heat to warp a block I would think. I also did my valve seats manually with lapping compound, worked well.   

[nillvurt]

So I got the heads back from the machine shop and they made some nice flat surfaces as I was messing up with the sandpaper. Somehow I was rocking the head when sanding it back and forth over the glass with sandpaper and rounded it toward the edge.

 

They also got the bolt out with a sweet trick: where I had drilled out the hole they filled it with weld and then stuck a bolt in with a washer on top to protect the head surface. Then they welded the new bolt to the stuck head bolt and went back and forth with the impact on low. The combination of the intense heat from welding and the impact managed to shake it loose from the rusty stuckness! I will definitely try that next time…

 

Now I am just going to lap the valves and stick it all back together. You guys use RTV on the water pump gasket?

 

Thanks again for all your input. This forum has been an amazing resource and wealth of good information!