Who knows a great automotive bearing supplier - or how to find "un-googleable" bearings?

[idosubaru]

XT6 timing pulleys use this bearing that gives zero hits when googled.  I've carefully vetted the number, it's NSK, no other possibilities, substituted for other letters/numbers, truncated from both ends - nothing. NSK couldn't help either - but he was likely an entry level guy who just plugs and chugs easy questions all day.  I asked him if bearings are ever obsolete and he said yes.  Would be nice if the spec's were or a cross reference were still available. 

NSK bearing part number:
5OSTD61DWAX

 

Options: 
 

1. mic the bearing and see if anything else exists

 

2. fabricate another solution

 

3. or maybe I should just regrease them like i've always done - but that compromises the face seal when they're this old and brittle. 

 

[DaveT]

That is a weird number. I'd try measuring and see if a standard 62xx or 63xx fits at least some of the dimensions.

[idosubaru]

It isn't, it's clearly thinner than others. But I'll be mic'ing it if I have to and look for options.

 

Or make some kind of adapter/conversion.

[idosubaru]

Funny you say that, I was baffled by that number as well. The NSK tech said he's seen bearing numbers like that before.

 

 

Who knows maybe it's a Subaru specific bearing just for the XT6 never to be seen again.

Edited March 31, 2017 by grossgary

[john in KY]

I don't believe it is a one-off bearing. Doesn't make sense economically. Find a "bearing house", a business that only sells bearings. There is such a business locally but that doesn't help you. Another option is maybe whatever the bearing is installed in can have the hole diameter increased to accommodate a slightly different/more available bearing. 

[idosubaru]

Find a "bearing house", a business that only sells bearings. There is such a business locally but that doesn't help you. Another option is maybe whatever the bearing is installed in can have the hole diameter increased to accommodate a slightly different/more available bearing.

There are no bearing houses within an hour. I'll have to call or travel. The ones I called today don't do automotive bearings (industrial) and said they couldn't help.

I'll try a few others.

 

It's the XT6 timing belt pulley/idler bearings. The tensioners use a common 6005 bearing. The other two are this odd ball and very thin - they have a large ID so they're "thin" relative to most bearings.

[skishop69]

Kaman Industrial Technologies. You need a bearing, they can find it. Call them direct. Get the size and type and they'll find it. I've used them to source bearings for a lot of weird sh!t over the years. Even bearings for my rotary engine motorcycle. Suzuki RE5.

[idosubaru]

Kaman Industrial Technologies. You need a bearing, they can find it. Call them direct. Get the size and type and they'll find it.

Awesome!

 

I got the center post out but they won't come out of the outer pulley without a press. I'll mic them once I get access to a press.

[DaveT]

Now that you mentioned it, Kaman was the first place I found I could get bearings with high temperature grease and contact seals to rebuild the idlers on my ea82s. Regular electric motor sealed bearings didn't hold up.

[GeneralDisorder]

Hhhhmmm I wonder how oilite bronze would hold up? Why not have a fabulous machinist build new idlers? I know one that might accept the challenge....

 

GD

[lostinthe202]

Kaman Industrial Technologies. You need a bearing, they can find it. Call them direct. Get the size and type and they'll find it. I've used them to source bearings for a lot of weird sh!t over the years. Even bearings for my rotary engine motorcycle. Suzuki RE5.

 

Hey Gary,

 

If that doesn't work out, Rick's suggestion of an oilite bronze replacement would be easy for me to whip up if you want to try it out.  I don't really have any clue what the bearing in question looks like, but bronze plain bearings are used all the time for pilot bearings in standard trans of various makes, so might be they'd do just fine.  But that said, a trans input shaft hardly needs to stay as rotationally true as a camshaft, so who knows.  If you feel like shipping the old bearing to me, I can make one and you can guinea pig your engine

 

Will-

 

Edit,

 

Rick sent me a pic of the bearings in question.  Bearing bronze might work, but it's expensive, could maybe still be cost effective if say just make a bronze sleeve pressed into a 4140 (chromoly) steel ring, still not hard to make.  Let me know, Gary, if you want to talk it over.

Edited April 1, 2017 by lostinthe202

[DaveT]

They have to spin very fast. Over crankshaft rpm by a little. They have side loading, unlike a pilot bearing.

 

They are 6301. The gear idler is 6203.

[lostinthe202]

They have to spin very fast. Over crankshaft rpm by a little. They have side loading, unlike a pilot bearing.

 

They are 6301. The gear idler is 6203.

 

 

This is true, but I doubt the rpm ist a problem, it's called bearing bronze for a reason, and it's used in electric motors and other stuff, though not sure.  But you're right on the side loading.  That's something I forgot about in relation to the bearing setup in question.   The last bronze pilot bearing I changed in this '94 Nissan pickup I had that had a vibration at certain speeds and I had convinced myself that the pilot bearing was shot, pulled the trans and it had the bearing bronze style and sure enough it looked beat to poo, I pressed it out and replaced, put everything back together, vibration still there, made absolutely no difference, ha. Live and learn.  Anyway, the point is that a bronze pilot bearing can get malformed and still do it's job just fine because even though malformed, the lubricity of the material was still there, and the input shaft/trans setup can take up a bit of slack, but the timing pulleys, I wouldn't think, would have the same forgiveness 

 

I'm a little rusty on my Subaru engine lore, they didn't make an interference engine before the 96+ 2.5 dual cam right?  Or to put it another way, any stock engine for an XT6 wouldn't be interference, so in theory if Gary wanted to give it a shot, if it went south the worst that happens is he's trying to call for a tow truck at 3:00am in a blizzard while being chased by bears and malevolent clowns juggling chain saws , right?

[DaveT]

I am not sure about the 6. Ea82s are non interference. Somewhere along the timeline ej2.2 went from non. To interference.

 

In electric motors, the bronze sleeve bearings are typically used when there is no or very little side loading, or low speed. At least where long life is a factor.

[idosubaru]

Hahaha I'd have a full timing set in the trunk, install needs to be faster than them finding me. The Moonshine would slow me down.

 

Make a bearing? Wow thanks for the offer! Wouldn't it be better to Fabricate the pulley so that it uses something common? Rather than a custom bearing? It's also a two bearing set up - 2 bearings per pullley. I can't get them to come apart yet.

 

It's a weird 5 piece set up.

1. The outer pulley that rides against the belt

2. Two bearings pressed into that

3. An inner cylindrical sleeve pressed through the IDs of the bearings.

4. The main center post presses into the sleeve.

 

What is funny is if I flip that post (#4) upside down (it has a different OD at the base and top) it would I think press into a 6005 bearing (I can get it to just start by hand but not go in) and the 6005 bearing can equally start to press inside the original pulley.

 

So I could literally build this in my garage right now. I'm just not sure the 6005 bearing would be tight enough to the pulley or the post would be tight enough to the ID of the bearing.

 

Maybe if I knurled or roughened surfaces or something that would promote locking the races in place?

 

And it uses two bearings - I'm not sure how they maintain proper spacing unless they're butted up next to each other.

 

The idlers are smooth and 52mm in diameter. both are identical one is just taller. So I may look into off the shelf options and just bolt them to a post.

[idosubaru]

XT6 are noninterference. They're just EA82s with two more cylinders. Same pistons, rods, bearings, valves, springs, HLAs.

 

All 1996 and earlier Subaru engines are noninterference.

[lostinthe202]

Hahaha I'd have a full timing set in the trunk, install needs to be faster than them finding me. The Moonshine would slow me down.

 

Make a bearing? Wow thanks for the offer! Wouldn't it be better to Fabricate the pulley so that it uses something common? Rather than a custom bearing? It's also a two bearing set up - 2 bearings per pullley. I can't get them to come apart yet.

 

It's a weird 5 piece set up.

1. The outer pulley that rides against the belt

2. Two bearings pressed into that

3. An inner cylindrical sleeve pressed through the IDs of the bearings.

4. The main center post presses into the sleeve.

 

What is funny is if I flip that post (#4) upside down (it has a different OD at the base and top) it would I think press into a 6005 bearing (I can get it to just start by hand but not go in) and the 6005 bearing can equally start to press inside the original pulley.

 

So I could literally build this in my garage right now. I'm just not sure the 6005 bearing would be tight enough to the pulley or the post would be tight enough to the ID of the bearing.

 

Maybe if I knurled or roughened surfaces or something that would promote locking the races in place?

 

And it uses two bearings - I'm not sure how they maintain proper spacing unless they're butted up next to each other.

 

The idlers are smooth and 52mm in diameter. both are identical one is just taller. So I may look into off the shelf options and just bolt them to a post.

 

 

Yeah, I don't know enough about the setup.  I was thinking, that the bearing sandwich would be replaced by a chromoly ring that the belt would ride on, that had a bearing bronze sleeve pressed in to ride on a shoulder bolt with whatever width bearing bronze spacer necessary to put the pulley in the right place so the belt tracks right.   The shoulder bolt's head flange would want to not be any larger than the bronze sleeve so it doesn't contact the chromoly.  The spacer and the shoulder bolt would be the tight-tolerance items as they would establish position.  Well the bore too obviously, but that's easy, either boring it or a reamer of the right size.

 

Buuut, all that said, is it actually cost effective?  And how many engine hours that setup would last, no idea, but nowhere near a proper bearing set.  Of course THAT said, if it sees light use and the point is just to keep it on the road without spending $700 or whatever on a timing kit just to get those bearings.  Could be a fun project.

Edited April 1, 2017 by lostinthe202

[DaveT]

The stock idlers are press fit. If the 6005 goes together with similar force that the original came apart with, I'd think it would be ok.

 

They could have the 2 bearings very close, or maybe a spacer. Have to measure stuff, etc.

[idosubaru]

Thanks guys. I've always owned one (or more) XTs since highschool in 1992. i was too young to know that $3,000 was a deal for a 3 year old meticulous Subaru. All that to say I'm not killing time here, I'll keep this one a long time, probably own more, and want a repeatable and good solution. They're very reliable with basic maintenance and good tbelt maintenance.

 

I'll disassemble further and post back some data and options and look for your input.

 

Thanks!

[pontoontodd]

Try Bearing Headquarters.  They seem to have lower prices than Motion Industries, etc and the guys at the local store are pretty good about finding things.  Bearings certainly go obsolete.  I have had bearings ID and/or OD ground as needed to fit special applications like what you're talking about.  Sounds like fitting 6005 bearings in is a good option.

Edited April 3, 2017 by pontoontodd

[lostinthe202]

Try Bearing Headquarters.  They seem to have lower prices than Motion Industries, etc and the guys at the local store are pretty good about finding things.  Bearings certainly go obsolete.  I have had bearings ID and/or OD ground as needed to fit special applications like what you're talking about.  Sounds like fitting 6005 bearings in is a good option.

  This is intriguing, you mean you've had off the shelf bearings ground to a different size?  Who did you use?  I'd love to see the setups for that.  I'm a machinist by trade, but my experience with grinding is limited to typical machinist needs, pedestal grinders, surface grinders, Blanchard grinders, etc.  I'm having trouble picturing how one would grind the OD or the ID of a bearing with disassembling it.  Maybe that's exactly what they do?

[pontoontodd]

  This is intriguing, you mean you've had off the shelf bearings ground to a different size?  Who did you use?  I'd love to see the setups for that.  I'm a machinist by trade, but my experience with grinding is limited to typical machinist needs, pedestal grinders, surface grinders, Blanchard grinders, etc.  I'm having trouble picturing how one would grind the OD or the ID of a bearing with disassembling it.  Maybe that's exactly what they do?

 

Anyone who can do OD and ID grinding should be able to do it.  I've mainly had it done on tapered roller bearings, just flush them out well before use.  I would think a sealed bearing would be fine, obviously have to make sure the race you're grinding isn't spinning freely, no disassembly.

[GeneralDisorder]

I've seen it done. I have a bearing at home that had its OD race custom ground to fit a custom self centering sleeve - both were ground spherical to allow the bearing to move in its "pocket" on the machine. The bearing started life as a $65 6xxx series radial ball bearing. After machining they were $1,000 each. Intel New Mexico bought 10 of them for 5 Ross-Cook centrifugal blowers we rebuilt for them. 

 

GD

[lostinthe202]

Anyone who can do OD and ID grinding should be able to do it.  I've mainly had it done on tapered roller bearings, just flush them out well before use.  I would think a sealed bearing would be fine, obviously have to make sure the race you're grinding isn't spinning freely, no disassembly.

 

 

I've seen it done. I have a bearing at home that had its OD race custom ground to fit a custom self centering sleeve - both were ground spherical to allow the bearing to move in its "pocket" on the machine. The bearing started life as a $65 6xxx series radial ball bearing. After machining they were $1,000 each. Intel New Mexico bought 10 of them for 5 Ross-Cook centrifugal blowers we rebuilt for them. 

 

GD

The OD I can see on a centerless or cylindrical grinder, not much of a problem there.  I'm having trouble picturing how you'd do the ID without taking the bearing apart, but then the world of grinding isn't really my forte.  I've mostly just used surface and blanchard grinders

[GeneralDisorder]

Grab the bearing inner race between the rolling elements with some small chuck or special jaws I guess and use a tool post grinder on a lathe to ream out the ID to size. Need a little baby hobby lathe.

 

GD