About to trade for a 2001 H6 Outback, what should I look for?

[Arvex]

After nearly two years of watching Craigslist and Subaru forums, I have finally found a 2001 Legacy Outback H6 wagon for trade whose owner is willing to consider my Passat 4motion 1.8T as a possible trade (since selling the Passat is hard despite all the work/money I put into it.)

 

I'm supposed to go look at it this Saturday and it has had a lot of work done recently, according to the listing, despite being listed for $2,000. It's got some rust on the body, but it didn't sound major.

 

I'm looking to hear from people who own third generation H6 Legacy Outbacks. What should I be keeping an eye/ear out for while looking at and test driving an H6 Outback. What sort of things should tell me that I should walk away and wait until I sell the Passat to straight up buy an Outback?

 

Are head gasket problems as bad as the EJ25s of similar years? Is it possible they're trying to sell it because it's time for a new head gasket and they don't want to deal with it?

 

EDIT: Shoot. The title could be worded so much better and I didn't realize you couldn't edit it until now.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Arvex

[GeneralDisorder]

The HG's usually start leaking externally after 200k or so. Same with the timing chain cover, oil cooler seals, etc. It is VERY expensive to do HG's on the chain motors. Basically the H6 is a 300k and throw it away engine. Unless you'll be doing the work yourself. Really they are getting pretty old and the 2.5 is much easier to maintain at this age.

 

GD

[Arvex]

The HG's usually start leaking externally after 200k or so. Same with the timing chain cover, oil cooler seals, etc. It is VERY expensive to do HG's on the chain motors. Basically the H6 is a 300k and throw it away engine. Unless you'll be doing the work yourself. Really they are getting pretty old and the 2.5 is much easier to maintain at this age.

 

GD

 

I am after the H6 because I'll be using this for occasional towing and the EJ25 equipped ones do not quite have the towing capacity I need. The one I'm looking at is at 219k miles in the listing.

 

If "300k and throw it away" is the stance on these, I'll see if it's cheaper getting the timing belt and head gasket done together vs. replacing the engine with a used one.

 

Shoot. While I was typing this, I found out the pre-03 H6 third generation Outbacks are only rated to tow 2,000 lbs. apparently. Are they different between those years? Or did they just up the rating?

 

EDIT: Okay. I'm finding mixed information across all years...

Edited April 16, 2017 by Arvex

[matt167]

I personally wouldn't tow more than 1,500-2k lbs regularly. You might want a larger vehicle. I put tires on an old outback with a receiver adapter and a trailer brake controller. Thought of that was scary. 2k is really about the limit with the class 1 reciever. You may find class 2 hitch, but still car is small and light comparatively.

Edited April 16, 2017 by matt167

[idosubaru]

H6 doesn't have a timing belt it has a chain.

 

The H6 cooling system is weak and prone to overheating if towing heavy loads up steep grades in the heat of summer. Very common issue with H6's.

 

Without opening up a massive discussion about towing - simply put the OBW is small as a dedicated tow vehicle - it has nothing to do almost with engine size alone. Put a huge engine in there and it's still a terrible dedicated heavy tow vehicle.

 

I tow all the time with Subarus and quite a few different H6's. They all do the exact same thing.

 

H6 headgaskets do fail. Internal leaks on H6's do end up for sale, they're prime candidates for trading in or dumping cheap. They can overheat under very specific conditions and go weeks and months between any symptoms. This makes them prime candidates to get a bad deal on. It happens. "My new to me H6 is overheating....".

 

Most of the H6 headgasket failures I've seen were on used car lots. They clearly get traded in and sent to auction and end up for sale on lots. I prefer private owner sales but same idea still applies but I'm good at reading people and walking if needed.

 

Look for bubbles in overflow while idling after its warmed up, after a good interstate stint, and leaving it idle for awhile. Also look for any signs of recent coolant related work - new coolant, radiator, hoses, Tstat. Any of those are immediate red flags on H6's.

 

Repair is tyoicalky replace engine or some DIY it. It's a beastly job.

 

In general the headgaskets seem more robust in that they don't have as frequent low mileage issues as EJ25's. I don't know that we have any statistically meaningful quantitative data on the difference between H6 and H4 failure rates overall, hard to tell with popularity and other variables being so far apart.

[Arvex]

The heaviest thing I ever intend to tow with it is an SVX (3500 pounds) and the routes I plan to tow it along are free of hills.

 

In a previous thread I had going, I was given the impression that an H6 Outback could manage under the following circumstances:

-Occasional towing, not frequent trips.

-Few hills, nothing steeper than an on-ramp for a highway (even then, I'd plan my route to use ones I know are gentler sloping than others.)

-Upgrading transmission cooling and brakes.

-Class two hitch and trailer brakes.

-Possibly even leave parts that are not relevant behind (towing would likely be to body shop and fabrication shops, parts not relevant to required service can be left in the garage.)

 

Honestly, if I'm not able to manage it with an Outback, I'd rather just pay someone to tow it for me when I need it towed than own a truck. I won't tow often enough nor be carrying large items often enough to justify it as a daily. Plus, me and large vehicles do not get along. And the one pseudo-truck I would consider is still far outside my price range (at a quick glance, still above $10k for 2006 Ridgeline.)

 

Even if I weren't using it for towing, I am still dead set on an automatic all wheel drive station wagon or a Baja (which I know cannot tow what I need) to replace the Passat as my daily.

[idosubaru]

They can tow but they are not forgiving. You can easily tow an SVX with a dinky Honda Civic..heck my 20 HP Kubota tractor could tow the SVX....flat, easy, frigid winter temps and take it easy at 2am with no traffic. physical limits and risk are mathematical curves - not hard lines and limits.

 

Ive towed other Subarus and large boats with H6 outbacks - I assume you're using a tow dolly which is about the only way without way to much weight. can push you just because of weight if braking/steering/grades are excessive.

Edited April 17, 2017 by grossgary

[GeneralDisorder]

Most dealerships around here don't replace the HG's. They recommend replacing the engine. As said it's a beast of a job and you are unlikely to find anyone to do it for less than about $4,000 if they will do it at all.

 

If you need to tow, you should get an old Chevy truck. The H6 is always equipped with an auto and you are looking at cars with 200k and 15 years old? Bad idea.

 

GD

[ferret]

As the owner of a recently acquired 2001 Outback Base I bought as a mechanics special, then rebuilt the 2.5L, CatCon, struts, brakes, 2 calipers, rotors and sway bar links and bushings. All total paid $1000 for the car, $1200 for parts and labor was,,,,,,, ME. Here's what else I would look for ( knowing you have the H6 and possibly  VDC ) :

 

Look for rust... seems common on certain areas of these bodies, Rear wheel wells, Open the rear doors and look at the lower rear of the door frame for rust. That was another $1000 for the rust in the rear. I didn't want our daughter to have all that water coming the the rear inside well and causing MORE rust damage. A local guy did a great job cutting out the rust and welding in new steel. I can tell the lines are not as crisp as they should be, but if you were not looking , you would never know. He did a lot of work for a grand.

 

There WAS a Recall for the Rear Subframe on these in the RUST BELT states. 2000 - 2002 IIRC, If they did the recall, they coated the subframe, but some STILL rusted. I would bring a wrench or small hammer and make certain it's still SORT OF intact.

 

Checkout the front driveshafts. They may need new boots.

 

My total $3200.....purchase, repair and bodywork. ... would I do it again....... YES... this is my 10th Subaru and I know the EJ25 well enough to be comfortable around it.

 

Just more things to check and food for thought.

Edited April 17, 2017 by ferret

[matt167]

If a trailer is big enough for trailer brakes, its too big for a Subaru. The Subaru is like most cars. If you have no truck. It is suitable to tow a utility trailer and probably 1,500 lbs safely. Once you start talking towing cars and its not An emergency situation it wouldn't be recommended..

[Arvex]

Sounds like I won't be using it for towing the SVX then. I may even back off this one, based on what I've been told and wait until someone buys the Passat so I can just buy, a lower mileage one, go for an EJ25 Outback or even save up for a Baja.

[Numbchux]

I lot of H6 hating in here....

 

 

They're fantastic engines. I MUCH prefer the H6 to the 4-cyl. The AWD in the VDC models is fantastic, not the front-biased garbage in all the other automatic Subarus. I honestly think I'll own at least one '01-'04 Outback VDC for a long time to come, I love ours.

 

Yes, the headgasket job sucks. But getting decent low-mileage engines is not difficult or expensive. I ordered one for a customer at work from a junkyard, with a warranty and about 100k miles, for about $800. And you can find stupid low mileage ones from Japan without the warranty for that or less...

 

 

Like Gary said, towing capacity is a gray area. IMO the weak link (from a reliability standpoint) when you're towing is the transmission, and the clutches and such didn't change between the 4-cyl and H6 cars. Neither did the brakes. But the H6 cars are heavier and more powerful....that's not great.

 

BUT, with FreeSSM and a $15 cable, you can bump up the line pressure to prevent slippage. Then add a transmission temperature gauge and aux cooler, and it'll do much better. I tow a thousand pound trailers all the time, with bikes on the roof and a decent load in the car....

  

(3rd picture isn't towing, but on the bump stops with boxes of books, plus the set of wheels/tires on the roof)

 

Here's my transmission cooler, ATF goes from the transmission, through the filter, than the aux cooler, than the stock cooler (to prevent overcooling), and back to the trans:

20160326_155341 by Numbchux, on Flickr

 

 

According to Cars101.com (fantastic Subaru information source, btw!), the 4-cyl wagons and all sedans have a towing capacity of 2000 lbs, and H6 wagons 2400. I put a Reese trailer hitch on mine which is rated for 3500 lbs.

 

 

All that said, you say you'd be towing an SVX....Curb weight of an AWD SVX is a hair over 3500, which is pushing it unless going very gingerly. But the SVX was only an automatic, and an AT Subaru cannot be safely flat-towed. So now you've got at least the weight of a dolly....A real short, easy tow might be fine, but even that is pushing it.

 

I'd tow my Celica on a dolly behind our Outback a fair distance, but it's a thousand pounds lighter than an SVX...

Edited July 25, 2017 by Numbchux

[idosubaru]

H6 are great. Im probably reading the situation differently and less about the engine.

 

I realize that trades are common and I've done it some but in my experience top notch products, situations, and sellers aren't the norm when it comes to trading with unknown parties (not counting friends, acquaintenances). All for a vehicle that has a significant weak spot for getting dumped with an expensive issue, is likely to have other maintenance needs, and he's "tried to get a car for two years via trade" and with a heavy desire for towing...sounds like a lot of room for falling short of expectations.

 

So yes - H6's are great. I'd just walk carefully and investigate the seller and car very thoroughly.

 

How important is towing. arw inspections and issue. Has this car driven much in the last year. Why are they selling. Why are they wanting to trade. What about maintenance and expenses - oil leaks struts brakes cv axles tires rusty exhaust are all extremely common to need attention. Is that same or not as current car and are you ready to spring for those if needed?

 

And yes those are ambiguous assumptions but im seeing other factors more than engine choice.

[Arvex]

The Passat is actually in pretty good shape. It just isn't the car I need. I spent a lot of money saving it from the junkyard (overpaid every step of the way.) The engine I had put in only has 55k miles total and the body/interior is in great shape, minus a dent or two, for a 14 year old car. Honestly, I wish I could get more out of it, but no one is willing to pay what I want for it unless it comes off a dealer's lot. The Passat just doesn't have enough extra storage space to justify the tradeoff in how fun it is to drive my Jetta. So I'm looking to put a little more distance between my fun car and my daily car.

 

I'm dead set on eventually buying an Outback or Baja, whether it can tow an SVX or not. I don't plan to tow any of my cars often enough to justify a truck. And I can strip a car down before towing in order to get it closer to safe towing weight ranges. Across the life of the SVX, I have only a pair of two way trips planned; a body shop and a fabrication shop. Those trips aren't enough to justify buying a full truck, I'd be better off renting or paying someone to tow it for me.

 

What I'm looking for is a station wagon for the extra storage space for carrying parts for my project cars while still having more leg room than my Jetta (my roommate is a big guy.)

 

On a related note to an above post, a 4EAT Subaru can be dolly towed if you disconnect the driveshaft from the rear differential.

 

Thank you, everyone. I'm still going to look at the Outback if I hear back from the seller, but I am doubtful I'll be trading for it. They probably are looking to dump it on someone instead of getting the repair work done, but you never know. I think I'll be better off waiting for someone to buy the Passat then put that money towards an Outback or Baja.

 

I'm still annoyed with hindsight reminding me that how much I put into the Passat could have EASILY bought me a low mileage Outback or turbo Baja.

[pontoontodd]

Having just towed an old Beetle across the country with an H6 Outback, it's decent but not something you'd want to do regularly.  Towed it up some long steep grades in 80F weather at about 70mph without getting hot though.  If you can't flat tow the SVX since it has an auto, then you need to add the weight of a flatbed trailer and it'd be heavier than the Outback.  I've towed a slightly lighter Subaru with another Subaru before and it's not too bad here in the midwest, again not something you'd want to do a lot.

Definitely check for head gasket leaks.  Make sure it's up to temp, check for bubbles in the overflow, make sure it doesn't overheat at idle.

I'm not sure why all the hate for engine removal in these cars, doesn't seem much worse than any other Subaru.  For $1000 or so, getting an engine with under 100k on it made more sense to me than rebuilding a shot engine.

[GeneralDisorder]

You don't want a Turbo Baja. It's the same story with the Outback XT, Legacy GT, etc. The turbo engines are just too maintenance intensive and tend to live a shorter life in general. It gets expensive to own them fast. 

 

In general, the Baja's seem to be cursed. I don't know what it is exactly about that body but they go though engines like crazy and have weird gremlins. It's an outback basically - with part of the roof missing - and they command a premium price. I used to be a huge Brat fan - owned half a dozen of them back in the day. But the Baja frankly is a joke. 

 

GD

[1 Lucky Texan]

can you remove shafts on the SVX?

 

also, that car is likely gonna need struts and springs all around

[3Pin]

I have had a 2002 LL Bean H6 for 9 years.  It has been a great car and like the extra zip as compared to the 2.5's.

 

It is a bit more expensive bear to run as used parts are less prevalent than the 2.5 model. AC compressor, different, alternator, different etc.

Little things like the rear muffler ain't cheap to replace.

 

On the flip side, the engine is solid though and has less HG issues.  Front bearings need a bit more maintenance like the tensioner etc, but those are all exposed.

 

The engine has a timing chain with like 100 nuts to undo if you need to change the h20 pump or timing chain guides.  Usually they don't need to be done till after 200 K, but you are there.  As long as you get it for the right price, you will enjoy it though.

 

I have hauled a light snowmobile, small boat etc, but would advise if you are hauling something heavy beyond the range of the h6, use a truck.  You don't want to damage the trans or get in bad position because you were trying to do something way out of the box. 

 

 

[AdventureSubaru]

If you're looking at a trade, be most picky about the body. H6s of this generation are of the age that the motor can be replaced with a used unit cheaply enough. The H6 is really no more difficult to swap than any of the EJ motors. Just a little tighter a fit lifting and lowering.

 

It's a good strong motor. trade off of being a little more reliable than the EJ25 of same years but being a little more difficult/expensive to repair when it does need it.

 

The weight of the Subaru is as much a limitation as horsepower. I towed several subarus with my EJ25 equipped 2000 outback and the only difference is that the H6 could probably climb the hills a little faster. Occasional towing (even of the SVX) would be fine if you are careful and have good experience towing/know your limits.

 

I've pushed the limits of towing with a Subaru several times, but adjusted my driving accordingly. Even when it meant driving from Texas to Ft lauderdale Florida with a top speed of 50mph on flat surfaces. 45mph downhill.

 

If you want simple towing though (probably safer too) an old full size Chevy or Ford can be found for $500-$1000 pretty readily. Vans are oft overlooked in favor of trucks but I loved my old Ford Econoline 150 conversion van. Was great for towing. Fit a ton of stuff inside and doubled as a camper on long trips.

[1 Lucky Texan]

don't some soob models have higher tow limits in other markets?

[Arvex]

I believe they do advertise much lower towing capacities here in the US. I don't know if it's because they don't have faith in US drivers or because of the mountains and hills some regions here have or design differences in US models.

 

And, yes, you can remove the driveshaft on an SVX. Take it out and you can tow the SVX on a dolly with the rear wheels on the ground.

 

It's not that I don't want a car that is maintenance intensive. I just want every car I own to feel like it's worth the work and money I put into it. My Jetta is that way, but I can't exactly carry an engine in the back of it.* I'm actually in the middle of  swapping my Jetta to manual after the automatic broke down (well... still saving up for the tools to get the transmission out of its donor which is sitting right behind it.)

 

If I got my hands on a clean silver or dark grey Baja (turbo or NA,) I'd be willing to deal with the problems. I'm aware of the common problems, both on the NA and turbo models. My dad owned three NA Bajas over the years and I did my research before considering a turbo Baja. I learned to drive in an NA Baja and I want my own now. Heck, I feel like a turbo Baja could possibly replace my Jetta as a fun to drive daily that is also more practical. Admittedly, they are very expensive. My best bet would be to get one in decent shape that someone is dumping for head gasket issues and replacing the engine with something more reliable. Even then, I don't expect it to be cheap. Yet, all the money I put into that Passat could have easily bought me a decent condition Baja. Sadly, I don't have the money I did back then. Between decent paying jobs right now, working delivery until I can find something better.

 

 

As for the Outback I am looking at this weekend, I'm going to ask them a few more questions, see what else has been done to it and what will need done soon. I think I'm most likely going to walk before I've even looked at it in person. It's at 219k and I don't have the tools to pull an engine out to do a head gasket, yet. And I feel I should get my other projects out of the way before buying something that will need major work soon.

 

 

I'm going to re-iterate. I do not intend to tow often enough to justify owning a truck, even a cheap one. Driveway space is limited. Plus riding/driving trucks terrifies me. Even a compact SUV is higher off the ground than I'm comfortable with.

 

 

Maybe trading the Passat at all is a bad idea and I should just sell it for cash then buy what I want later. I was just worried what I got for it wouldn't be enough to buy a Subaru, which is why I offered trades for one.

 

 

 

*Okay, not entirely true...

*Also, my Jetta parts car had its cylinder head and valve cover in the trunk when I bought it.

 

EDIT: All this thread is doing now is making me want to give up on searching for an Outback and go straight for a Baja.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Arvex

[idosubaru]

they'll tow other Subarus just fine, I've done it with a dolly. Just avoid steep grades and 90+ Summer heat and humidity with the H6's if you're towing really large loads. I would guess same applies to H4's I've just never towed huge loads with them.

[Numbchux]

Sounds like you're on the right track with vehicle choice and probably even for the conditions to tow that SVX (notice I said not to flat-tow it, you seemed competent enough to know it could be towed on a dolly with the driveshaft removed).

 

I do agree, this deal smells a little funky. I'm always wary of trades...it seems to me like unless it's the perfect car for both people (which seems unlikely) someones trying to get rid of something quick that isn't worth it. If you don't think you can sell it for what the Outback is worth, than why is he accepting it? Might be legit, but seems more likely that it isn't...

 

 

My wife wants a Baja something fierce. I'm on the lookout for a flood damaged one so I can swap the drivetrain (which would involve basically all the electronics, side-airbag seats, etc. so could easily be the rest of the interior) from our H6 VDC Wagon.

 

 

 

Interesting tidbit...I rented a tow dolly a couple years ago when I bought my Celica. The guy at the rental center I was dealing with was a little concerned about me towing a car with a 3500/350 hitch (2000 Honda Odyssey minivan), and I assured him it was a small car, 2700 lbs or so. And he said the bigger and commonly-overlooked concern with towing on a dolly is tongue weight. As under braking, the momentum of the car being towed actually puts rotational force on the dolly and therefore significant downward force on the tongue. He very much tried to talk me out of using that vehicle, and using something with at least 500 lb tongue rating.

 

I took it as a grain of salt, did it anyway, and it was completely fine for about 125 miles, but I drove very carefully/defensively to avoid braking as much as possible.

[Arvex]

What I meant by "not being able to sell it enough for an Outback" was meant to mean "Outback of similar condition."

 

The Outback they're offering is listed at $2,000 while I'm listing my Passat at $3,000. I'm feeling like I'm giving myself the short end of the stick on this trade based on how it sounds like it might need expensive work done soon.

 

$3,000 is more than enough for a solid down payment on a Baja or H6 Outback at a reputable dealer's lot, maybe even put some of that money into fixing up the SVX. So, selling the Passat is likely my best bet, even if it takes a while.

[Caboobaroo]

A few issues that haven't been mentioned. Being a 2001, it's a first year of that engine and transmission combination. Unfortunately the 2001 have issues with the transmissions which was remedied for 2002. You might be able to swap in a 02-04 LL Bean transmission but I feel like there was a difference in TCU.

 

Second issue. The EZ30D have problems with the Throttle Position Sensor and potentially the electrical harness going to it. The symptoms are slight chugging under load, a flat spot in the RPM range, and general sluggishness up hill without changing of the throttle.