xt6 was starting, now...not so much. No spark, warning lights, turns over.

[Shadabob]

1989 Subaru XT6, Pulled motor for reseal and new clutch.   Started last night, and fired right up.  Ran a little rough, and lifters were a bit noisy (machine shop said they will pump themselves up...ugh, should I have done this manually before I installed?....sorry a little off topic).  MY ISSUE is, started it three different times.  Drove about 1000ft, turned off when I realized amps where reading low.  Went to restart, car turns over, but no spark, and no warning lights when I put in key.  pulled a plug wire, no spark.  Replaced coil today to eliminate as possible issue, still no spark.

 

I checked all fuses with tester.  Lights up both sides of all fuses (fusable links and under dash).  However, Charge 15A is super dim. 

 

ALSO, I had bought a new alternator.  Took it back today to find out is was only reading just over 11.  So new one arrives tomorrow.  Would this cause all these other issues?  ei: lack of dash warning lights, no spark?  The battery is charged (put on charger) and didn't have any issue prior to this.

 

Sadly like many, this stuff makes me lose sleep, so I thought I'd go ahead and see if anyone could help me shed some light on the situation.    Car ran GREAT no issues before I did the reseal.  I have double and triple checked I plugged everything back in.  The o2 sensor on the actual exhaust did get "yanked" out it upper plug, but I was able to reinsert it, and it appears to be no issue.

 

hmmm...I think that's the best I can describe for now.  Thanks guys! Oh, I would go to the XT forums...but it still wont let me sign up!  grrr

 

 

 

EDIT:  forgot to note...sometimes with the key on, but not trying to start the car...the tach will bounce once in awhile.  and once, it stuck up at 4k, and just sat there.  also, all the other stuff on the dash seems to be working....the door ajar lights, parking brake light, ect.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Shadabob

[DaveT]

Both sides of a good fuse should be same brightness, usually full brightness with a test light.

Lots of people report trouble with aftermarket alternators.

 

O2 sensor doesn't do anything until the engine is up to normal operating temperature.

 

I don't know xt6s, just spfi ea82.

 

Double check harness connectors that were unplugged during the reseal.

[john in KY]

Two things come to mind:  the timing belt that drives the distributor and the coil bracket.  Coil bracket has to be grounded.  Not grounded=no spark. 

 

Like Dave stated, check all the wiring harness plugs/connectors. 

[Shadabob]

Awesome thanks guys!  YES my "new" refurb ALT was faulty, it appears, and the replacement is enroute and will be here tomorrow.  Hopefully that clears up my issues.  I have triple checked all the connectors.  Not a whole lot to do until I get the new Alt in I think.   I will double check the grounds too! 

[idosubaru]

1. Did you read what John said - most likely issue is drivers side timing belt failed or is not lined up properly.

 

It takes a Phillips head screw driver and 2 minutes to test - far easier than replacing an alternator (which is easy anyway). Pull distributor cap and crank engine - does the rotor turn?

If not the belt is broken or compromised.

 

2. Separating crank pulley can also cause low voltage. The alternator doesn't spin fast enough because the pulley is slipping and not turning fast enough. This is also likely in your case because:

A. Alternator previously was fine before the work

B. Crank pulley is more likely to be damage by the job you implied

C. That would explain two alternators having identical failure symptoms (its not the alternators)

[Shadabob]

1. Did you read what John said - most likely issue is drivers side timing belt failed or is not lined up properly.

 

It takes a Phillips head screw driver and 2 minutes to test - far easier than replacing an alternator (which is easy anyway). Pull distributor cap and crank engine - does the rotor turn?

If not the belt is broken or compromised.

 

2. Separating crank pulley can also cause low voltage. The alternator doesn't spin fast enough because the pulley is slipping and not turning fast enough. This is also likely in your case because:

A. Alternator previously was fine before the work

B. Crank pulley is more likely to be damage by the job you implied

C. That would explain two alternators having identical failure symptoms (its not the alternators)

 

Yes, and thank you.  Sorry didn't update, busy life sometimes!    The alternator thing was because I simply bought a new one during the project and after it was tested, it showed failure from the get-go, and was replaced by warranty.  First thought was voltage regulator was jacking my car all up, causing the ECU to say "nope!"   I replaced the Alt yesterday and I regained my dash warning lights...EXCEPT the check engine light, which I don't see.  Still no start/ spark.  

 

I also checked the belts. Driver's side is intact, looks good, and the rotor is moving, and is landing facing #1 distributor slot when I have the #1 piston up.  HOWEVER, I discovered the passenger side belt was lose.  VERY lose.  I'm going to tackle that today after work.  I wonder if its possible that side jumped because of how loose it was.  Not sure why it loosened up.  I know you need to re-adjust (it has the two access holes on the timing cover) but man I barely let it run.  Also, I believe the xt6's have a cam sensor, yes?  If that's the case, maybe that could cause the ECU to have a code that may prevent start up/ spark if the cams are out of alignment and timing all goofed up?  Even though I'm still unable to sign up over at the XT forum, I can access the forum (duh) and was able to print off the codes and procedure and will be checking to see what my ECU is telling me.   I see similar posts over there about no start/ spark issues, each with varying outcomes.  But got some ideas as I tackle things one at a time.

 

Crank Pulley looks good.  What do you mean, its more likely to be damaged by the job you implied?   When I pulled motor, I pulled everything off first, didn't bang it into anything, and everything was stored with extreme care, including crank pulley.  Just wasn't sure I understood what you meant. 

 

The Alternator failed at the parts store tester after I noticed low amps when it was running.  It was only one failed Alt.  In hindsight, I should have kept the original working one, but man she looked awful, super rusted pulley, green moss growth, lol.... but she worked!  

 

I'll keep ya posted and again thank you guys for the help! 

[Shadabob]

UPDATE: 

 

Timing appears good.  Cam sprocket marks line up correct. 

 

Never see a check engine light.  Does that indicate ECU issue?  I believe light worked before, but I may have to actually see if bulb is burned out.  

 

Engine Code:  I am getting code 24.  Air Control Valve. 

 

Fuse 15A labeled "Charge" is not lighting up with tester.  It use to light up tester, but very dim. If I pull fuse, and put light tester up into slot, right side lights, left is nothing.  No changes with 3 different 15A fuses.

 

ALSO-  When the key is in the "on" position, the Tach in the car bounces up to 4k.   Its erradic. 

 

We have double and triple checked all the connections are good, and everything is hooked up correctly.  Grounds check out good also.   

Edited April 20, 2017 by Shadabob

[DaveT]

If the 24 is for the Idle Air Control valve, that can kill idle.  Check that it clicks if you apply 12V to the coil.

 

Check the lamp for the CEL.   It should light during crank / or key on engine off, just like all the other ones light up.

 

After installing timing belts, I turn the engine a couple of revolutions.  RE check tension.  If it's still ok, run it for 10 seconds - before installing anything else.  Then re check.  Sometimes, the belts are not in their normal running path when you first install them, this gives them a chance to settle into position.

[idosubaru]

Passenger side belts do seem very "loose" on EA82 and XT6's, that's normal but not bad idea to check since there is a "tensioning procedure" so to speak. 

 

Air Control Valve is, with the CTS, the most common electrical component failure on XT6's: 

 

1.  remove it and clean it.  they get gummed up and can't open/close properly.   ideally you get the thing to open and close while you're cleaning it to get all the build up out of areas, but that's not easy. 

2.  replace it. 

 

#1 usually does the trick, #2 is simpler i some ways.

 

If you clean/replace the IAC and preemptively address possible CTS connector degradation these things easily run forever on just regular maintenance - plugs, wires, cap, rotor, timing components, and oil leaks.

 

for the CTS I get fuel injector plugs that are identical and replace the CTS connector, get a new CTS or just clean the tabs, and you're done.  The connections and guts of the connector get corroded over time. 

[wagons]

How and where do you have the battery grounded? The guy I bought my car from had no charge and coil wouldn't fire because the battery did not have enough of a ground. We ran two extra chassis grounds and she fired right away and started charging. Just a thought but it could be a cheap thought

[Shadabob]

How and where do you have the battery grounded? The guy I bought my car from had no charge and coil wouldn't fire because the battery did not have enough of a ground. We ran two extra chassis grounds and she fired right away and started charging. Just a thought but it could be a cheap thought

 

Battery is grounded on bracket attached by upper starter bolt, and also has a smaller wire that runs over to a stud/ nut next to the black box on the back firewall.  I think I will check all the grounds again. 

 

Passenger side belts do seem very "loose" on EA82 and XT6's, that's normal but not bad idea to check since there is a "tensioning procedure" so to speak. 

 

Air Control Valve is, with the CTS, the most common electrical component failure on XT6's: 

 

1.  remove it and clean it.  they get gummed up and can't open/close properly.   ideally you get the thing to open and close while you're cleaning it to get all the build up out of areas, but that's not easy. 

2.  replace it. 

 

#1 usually does the trick, #2 is simpler i some ways.

 

If you clean/replace the IAC and preemptively address possible CTS connector degradation these things easily run forever on just regular maintenance - plugs, wires, cap, rotor, timing components, and oil leaks.

 

for the CTS I get fuel injector plugs that are identical and replace the CTS connector, get a new CTS or just clean the tabs, and you're done.  The connections and guts of the connector get corroded over time.

 

Thanks for the info!  I will try and do that.  The Air Control Valve is EXPENSIVE new.  I see some one ebay used, but whose to say they are any good.  I will try and clean the one I have.  I will also follow up on the Coolant Temp Sensor too! 

[Shadabob]

Thank you!

 

It WAS the Coolant Temp Sensor (go figure!)  Went and got the connector like you suggested, and worked like a charm!

 

So much stress could have been avoided if I just did this simple fix...how many times has everyone heard that?

[DaveT]

Cts can screw with things for certain. When they go bad, the effects are pretty similar to a choke problem on a carburetor engine.

[idosubaru]

Thank you!

 

It WAS the Coolant Temp Sensor (go figure!)  Went and got the connector like you suggested, and worked like a charm!

 

So much stress could have been avoided if I just did this simple fix...how many times has everyone heard that?

 

Awesome, good job following through.  The XT6 isn't a very well known platform so it can pose some challenges. 

 

The IAC's routinely just get gummed up on those just carbon build up inside the pathways, so in some ways there's not much worry about one not working.  Cleaning usually works, they can fail but it's rare.  Either way in the life of an XT6, one or maybe two IAC's will last forever so cost of new is nearly pointless IMO.  i just have some extras in the garage. Those are the two most common engine/electrical issues in XT6's so they're wise to address.

[Shadabob]

Awesome, good job following through.  The XT6 isn't a very well known platform so it can pose some challenges. 

 

The IAC's routinely just get gummed up on those just carbon build up inside the pathways, so in some ways there's not much worry about one not working.  Cleaning usually works, they can fail but it's rare.  Either way in the life of an XT6, one or maybe two IAC's will last forever so cost of new is nearly pointless IMO.  i just have some extras in the garage. Those are the two most common engine/electrical issues in XT6's so they're wise to address.

 

Thanks for the suggestions!  Spot on   When she immediately fired up, I was elated...and still am.  ha. 

 

What are the symptoms of a malfunctioning ICA?  I cleaned mine up, but stil having a couple issues:

 

1.) Car seems to start fine.  I can drive it, but if I drive it and get on it at all, it starts missing/ chugging pretty badly.  Frist thought is my timing is off.  Timed it yesterday, and best I could get was only 10 degrees :/   I can accelerate CAREFULLY up to 3/4k rpms without issue.   

 

2.) Tach is still dancing, even when the car sounds great at idle.  I've tried new ignition coil, and ended up putting back in old one, just to look for changes in behavor.  Dances in "on" postion. Sometimes it wont dance at all, but if I give the car some gas with it running, it will tach normal....but on way back down start to dance.    New cap, rotor, wires, and plugs.  Double checked all plugs (and gap) and have tried 2 sets of wires now.  Seems more like a short, or linked to timing issues?

 

Possibly linked?  Distributor?  I didn't remove it when I pulled motor.  We lined up cam/ timing marks correctly...and have since double checked it and looks spot on.  

 

Also, when I timed it, I plugged in the green connectors like instructed...timing is steady (at a maxed 10 degrees).  When I unplug them and check timing, timing is bouncing all over the place. 

 

Thanks guys! I'm gonna research over on XT forums too!  But like I said, I can't sign up for some reason over there :/  I've tried for years, and even seen you guys chime in for me asking about registration issues

Edited April 21, 2017 by Shadabob

[idosubaru]

That's tricky.  

 

Are you positive you got all the corroded wiring out of the CTS connector wiring loom leading up to the CTS?  If the corrosion is really bad, a foot back into the wiring then just replacing the connector might not be enough.

 

No check engine lights?

 

I'd probably swap in another MAF, IAC, and distributor since they're easy to swap and only take a couple minutes. 

 

Checking timing seems like a good idea - maybe trying to see if the tensioners are loose and not holding tension under load or something like that. 

 

Clearest IAC issue is stalling when you let your foot off the gas.  But I'm sure it has other failure modes as well depending how it's sticking.

 

Distributor is either set right or it's not.  The distributor does house the crank angle sensor, I've never seen them cause intermittent issues, just no start conditions. But it's rare and the only ones i've seen sat for extended periods (which i guess is the case of most XT6's by now LOL). 

 

When you say the tach is dancing - is it dancing erroneously or it's a relevant indicator to what the engine is doing?  I think the tach is driven off the crank angle sensor in the distributor....but it's been awhile since i've even thought about that, like 10 years!

 

The knock sensors are brittle and easily fail if they're ever removed/touched.  Could be retarding timing if it's compromised.

[Shadabob]

Correct, no check engine lights (and it does work).  I did cut the wires back about six inches.  Visually they looked "okay."  I could cut them back further, but it did fix my no start issue...hmmm?

 

Tach is dancing erroneously.  Its more like a "twitch."  A few times I put key in, and it dances without car even running. 

 

Knock Sensor is the one located right next to PCV "tree" back under passenger side intake side?  I have had some "gut" concerns about it, lol.  I didnt like how connection felt, and we have pulled and replugged it a few times.

 

Going to check my timing belts again, and check the tensiors.  This seems easiest, and cheapest step! ha. 

 

I do have another used Distributor from a "spare" engine I recieved when I bought the car.  Condition unknown.

[DaveT]

IAC shouldn't have any effect once you are significantly off idle, and open throttle. The effect of its relatively small area vs the main throttle would be swamped.

[idosubaru]

I would focus closely on what drives the tach. Maybe search or start a new thread for that. EA82 works the same as an XT6 so someone should know.

 

My guess is the distributor but maybe there's more to it than that. You could pull the disty and maybe you'll find slop or issues in the bearing inside of it. I've never seen the bearings fail but heard plenty with noisy and rough bearings that there must be failures and symptoms sometimes.