Water pump failure--time frame?

[ThosL]

Do water pumps leak on and off if they are in decline?  I had it checked out by a local mechanic earlier in the week, he did not have the vehicle running while on the lift, so is accurate diagnosis still likely?  It can go quite a distance well over 100 miles without leaking significantly, assuming I am losing water out there.  I will check again all hoses, and the overflow tank to see if this is really the problem.

[ocei77]

of the six Suby's I've been around  with 188-239k miles I've only had one pump go on me.

98 IOB with a little over 200k.

Would leak out of the weep hole and got progressively worse. I changed it before it failed completely.

 

O.

[GeneralDisorder]

Look at the weep hole. If it's crusty then the pump seals are shot. This is really easy - only requiring laying on your back and a flashlight.

 

GD

Edited May 20, 2017 by GeneralDisorder

[nipper]

Better question how old is the timing belt as they usually get replaced at  the same time

[Bushwick]

Yes, they can leak, and it can leak erratically as well. As others mentioned, the weep hole should be showing signs of coolant dripping if that's the case. If the belt is off, you can check the waterpump pulley for shaft play.

[ThosL]

I had the mechanic replace the water pump and timing belt, neither showed much wear or breakdown but probably better sooner than later?  Water pump/timing belt were probably replaced with the engine job in the last 10 years or so.  

 

Total cost:  $300 labor plus tax; $65 for parts.

[nipper]

Timing belt wear is more internal then external. If they are worn enough to look bad you dodged a bullet

 

Normally WP can go 1bout 130 more is well maintaned, but it makes more economic sense to do everything at once..

[ThosL]

It did not look worn; the water pump was leaking a little, less than a quart every few days, but the last Subaru it became more of a problem, I suppose when the shaft starts leaking.  

[GeneralDisorder]

Total cost:  $300 labor plus tax; $65 for parts.

 

That's really cheap. Too cheap for quality work and quality parts for sure. My cost on a decent water pump is about $50 and then you have anti-freeze, used fluid disposal..... And realistically that's more than 3 hours of work. 

 

Beware the cheap chinese water pumps - they are often worse than leaving the old factory one on there. I've seen "GMB" pumps fail in a matter of months. Garbage....

 

GD

[ThosL]

The pump was "Carquest" from Advance.  https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/carquest-new-water-pump-t2254/3130258-P?searchTerm=water+pump

 

The local shop is excellent, they will put in your parts or used ones from the boneyard.  I consider comments about it being too cheap to be off the wall elitist, as I have had two water pump jobs on the same era Subarus for around $300 labor. Mechanic gets $150 shop gets $150 or so. What the heck is low about that? In this economy, are you kidding me?  

Edited May 27, 2017 by ThosL

[Mike104]

Not much better than GMB. 

[Gloyale]

 Always replace water pump, cogged roller, 2 smooth rollers and T-belt, crank seal and Cam seals all at once on interference engine.

 

Not worth the risks.  Belts rarely fail, it's the rollers and WP that take them out and cause valve damage

 

Paraut (OEM) or Atsugi (japanese) Water pump is best.  Metal gasket

 

Koyo or NSK rollers.

 

GMB is worthless junk.  Gates also cheap chinese garbage

Edited May 29, 2017 by Gloyale

[GeneralDisorder]

What's cheap about it? It's a 3 hour job *at least* to do it right. The average for non dealer shop labor (as of a few years ago when so last checked) is $97 per hour. My shop is $99 per hour. Then you have parts (about $100 give or take for an OEM pump or equivalent Japanese, about $60 for the belt) then anti-freeze, etc.

 

We will install customer supplied parts sometimes. With the caveat that we can't warranty what doesn't come from our suppliers.

 

Any import mechanic that uses Carquest (or AutoZone for that matter) parts on a regular basis is not to be trusted. For one thing, real shops have wholesale accounts and Carquest owns Worldpac who has much better pricing and not the cheeeeep Mexican garbage they sell in the retail channels.

 

GD

Edited May 30, 2017 by GeneralDisorder

[Mike104]

Advance Auto also has access to WorldPac parts.  That was part of the Carquest purchase by Advance Auto.  You have to ask though as otherwise you get the cheap Chinese junk from Advance/AutoZone/O'Reillys

[ThosL]

The last time I had the job done was by F and S in Waterbury, one of the best Subaru mechanics around and the price was about the same. With mechanics charging too much on these jobs turning simple mechanical work into a religion, it isn't surprising that jobs don't get done on time leading to more serious mechanical, economic and other problems or customers look elsewhere.  The perfect is the enemy of the good.  With Subarus that are 20 years old you don't have to go to dealers or demand oe parts.  Personally I would go for recycled parts off other Subarus but a lot of mechanics insist on putting in their own new parts and making money on that end too.  Plus if you are going to slam, slander or defame non-oe manufacturers, you had better have a lot of studies and real, verifiable statistics--instead of anecdotal evidence to back it up.  

Edited June 1, 2017 by ThosL

[GeneralDisorder]

I don't need any evidence. I have experience and my word is good enough around here.

 

I've done side by side comparisons of impeller clearance measurements, impeller design, and flow calculations not to mention seen more failures and what brand they were than most, if not all, members of this forum.

 

I did not say OEM. I said Japanese origin. Subaru has used many manufacturers of water pumps. We trust Yokahama, Aisin, Paraut, and sometimes NPW although their impeller to housing clearance is less than optimal.

 

There is a substantial difference both in quality as well as in flow characteristics. If you use a cheap pump you will have a more difficult time bleeding air from the system for example- often requiring high reving the engine to get enough flow to clear the air pockets. This leads to hot spots and premature failure of various cooling system components including the pump and it's mechanical seals.

 

If you truly think that a Chinese bearing that cost $1 or less is the same as an NTN, Koyo, or NSK then go right ahead and use the $20 water pumps. Doesn't make a bit of difference to me.

 

I build 500+ HP cars quite often. Trust me you have zero idea what you are talking about here. And that's the only reason I waste my time replying. Because the mis-information is damaging to our forum.

 

GD

[ThosL]

I don't need any evidence. I have experience and my word is good enough around here.

 

I've done side by side comparisons of impeller clearance measurements, impeller design, and flow calculations not to mention seen more failures and what brand they were than most, if not all, members of this forum.

 

I did not say OEM. I said Japanese origin. Subaru has used many manufacturers of water pumps. We trust Yokahama, Aisin, Paraut, and sometimes NPW although their impeller to housing clearance is less than optimal.

 

There is a substantial difference both in quality as well as in flow characteristics. If you use a cheap pump you will have a more difficult time bleeding air from the system for example- often requiring high reving the engine to get enough flow to clear the air pockets. This leads to hot spots and premature failure of various cooling system components including the pump and it's mechanical seals.

 

If you truly think that a Chinese bearing that cost $1 or less is the same as an NTN, Koyo, or NSK then go right ahead and use the $20 water pumps. Doesn't make a bit of difference to me.

 

I build 500+ HP cars quite often. Trust me you have zero idea what you are talking about here. And that's the only reason I waste my time replying. Because the mis-information is damaging to our forum.

 

GD

Your hubris and arrogance is damaging to free and vital debate.  If you don't have verifiable evidence with statistics to back it up than keep your yap shut.  

[Subaru Scott]

"With mechanics charging too much on these jobs turning simple mechanical work into a religion"

 

Really?!? Well, why don't you just grab your toolbox and show us all how lazy and overpaid we are?

 

 "Personally I would go for recycled parts off other Subarus"

 

So, your advise is to install a used water pump... That's nothing short of brilliant! (sarcasm)

 

That's one of the worst pieces of advice I've ever seen on a forum. You need to keep YOUR yap shut!

 

You started this thread asking for advice because, obviously, you didn't trust what your mechanic told you.

GD kindly gave you his VERY experienced opinion, and you have the audacity to call him elitist and arrogant?!??    

Edited June 1, 2017 by Subaru Scott

[GeneralDisorder]

Your hubris and arrogance is damaging to free and vital debate. If you don't have verifiable evidence with statistics to back it up than keep your yap shut.

There is no need for "vital debate". Everyone in this thread already agrees with my statements. You are the outlier in the statistical sampling of members opinions on water pump failure rates. This board is itself a statistical model and I've been a member here for near 15 years. You can start a poll thread if you like and ask what people have good/bad luck with.

 

I'll find my pictures of impeller clearance and post them here if you like.

 

Nearly every failed water pump we see is Chinese. 10:1 ratio. And we change probably an average of three water pumps a week as a matter of course - either due to failure, or as part of a maintenance schedule.

 

We use exclusively Aisin, Paraut, NPW. And we have a failure rate of ZERO. We replace a lot of GMB, Gates, and other no-name China branded pumps that fail prematurely. We rarely replace a bad Japanese pump and it's usually got 150k+ on it.

 

I went through buying and trying the cheap stuff. I've had multiple water pump failures and timing belts that turned to hard plastic and ripped in half at 60k. Its not funny when you bend all the valves in a customers engine.

 

You want statistics - start a poll. No one here but you thinks this junk is ok.

 

GD

[Gloyale]

Your hubris and arrogance is damaging to free and vital debate.  If you don't have verifiable evidence with statistics to back it up than keep your yap shut.  

 

So where's your evidence?  

 

You started this thread asking a question.....

 

And now your rejecting the experienced, informed consensus of several of the forums most knowledgable and experienced members?  (in a very rude and and unjustifiably smug manner to boot)

 

Maybe you should have kept your "Yap shut" if you don't want to hear the answers to YOUR own questions.

 

 

The pump you linked to clearly is garbage.  Want evidence? It's supplied with a PAPER gasket, and no thermostat gasket or rubber "L" seal for the side edge.  

 

A good Aisin or Paraut pump will come with an OE style metal gasket, and the thermo gasket and "L" seal.  If the pump comes with a paper gasket, that's a clear sign that it doesn't meet OE standards and was made to sucker saps with a low cost.  You get what you pay for.

 

You probably would be better off with a used OE pump and a new metal gasket......I do that for my EJ22 non-interference wheeler.  Not for my wife or customers or anyone that actually needs to not breakdown or any interference engine.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Gloyale

[Subaru Scott]

Hubris...

 

Whenever you have no idea what you're talking about, just toss out some ancient Greek and you'll get instant credibility.

 

"Honey, have you got any extra hubris? I left all mine at work, and I'm sure I'll need some for the party tonight."

[ThosL]

So where's your evidence?  

 

You started this thread asking a question.....

 

And now your rejecting the experienced, informed consensus of several of the forums most knowledgable and experienced members?  (in a very rude and and unjustifiably smug manner to boot)

 

Maybe you should have kept your "Yap shut" if you don't want to hear the answers to YOUR own questions.

 

 

The pump you linked to clearly is garbage.  Want evidence? It's supplied with a PAPER gasket, and no thermostat gasket or rubber "L" seal for the side edge.  

 

A good Aisin or Paraut pump will come with an OE style metal gasket, and the thermo gasket and "L" seal.  If the pump comes with a paper gasket, that's a clear sign that it doesn't meet OE standards and was made to sucker saps with a low cost.  You get what you pay for.

 

You probably would be better off with a used OE pump and a new metal gasket......I do that for my EJ22 non-interference wheeler.  Not for my wife or customers or anyone that actually needs to not breakdown or any interference engine.

 

I agree that oe is better that's why I said installing used units is preferable, and I have gone down to the area junkyard to do just that plus save money. And someone here said that was the worst piece of advice he has ever heard... I'm out of work, don't get a plug nickel from the government or investments;  a lot of people cannot afford high priced jobs.

 

If you think all the non-NAPA or dealer parts are such junk then sue the bad manufacturers instead of jumping all over me.  

Edited June 2, 2017 by ThosL

[GeneralDisorder]

If you think all the non-NAPA or dealer parts are such junk then sue the bad manufacturers instead of jumping all over me.  

 

You can't sue them. They are large corporations with overseas holding companies and teams of lawyers. They would have you tied up with red tape for years and it would cost far more than just repairing the damage they caused and moving on. And to what end? Make them stop selling the stuff? Hardly. If you won they would just declare bankruptcy, and open under a new name. 

 

Welcome to 'Merica. Here in 'Merica we abide by the #1 basic rule of Capitalism: Caveat Emptor

 

To wit: You have come here to ask for the "Caveat Emptor" experience of your friendly, helpful Subaru community. Which has been freely and honestly given to you. Note that no one here has financial interest in your vehicle or it's repairs. 

 

I understand being poor. I've been there. But good sense decisions often involve spending more in the near term to avoid spending LOTS more in the long term. Sometimes you just have to put your head down and pull the cart till you can afford to buy a new horse. 

 

As for Junkyards - I've seen plenty of cars in the yards that people attempted to repair (sometimes with quality parts even) and failed so the car ends up there with basically new parts on it. This is usually quite obvious. I once bought an EA82 Paraut water pump that was shiny and new at the yard for $5. Many, many years ago. People swap them and find out the HG is blown, etc and junk the car. So if you have the time this can pan out. But it's a gamble and it's trading time for money. Which is what most of us do with gainful employment. 

 

GD

Edited June 2, 2017 by GeneralDisorder

[Gloyale]

I agree that oe is better that's why I said installing used units is preferable, and I have gone down to the area junkyard to do just that plus save money. And someone here said that was the worst piece of advice he has ever heard... I'm out of work, don't get a plug nickel from the government or investments;  a lot of people cannot afford high priced jobs.

 

If you think all the non-NAPA or dealer parts are such junk then sue the bad manufacturers instead of jumping all over me.  

 

Aisin, Atsugi, or Paraut water pumps can be ordered from many many places besides Napa or dealer.  And they are usually within $20 price of the cheapest ones.

 

I have no problem with junk parts. I Don't use them.  So I don't need to sue anybody.  Besides.......that's ridiculous......sue a company for a $50 dollar part???  A court filing would cost more than that to begin with.

 

If you can't afford to buy good parts, you certainly can't sue ANYBODY.

 

To answer your original question.......Just buy the damn good pump.  or not......but don't harass us when we don't give you reassurance for bad parts.