New to me '98 Impreza Outback Sport

[FlyB0y]

Heya all!

 

Been away a while when I sold my brat, but I am now back into the Subaru game, wanted to get some advice.  Going to need to do a timing belt change here real soon on my '98 Impreza Outback Sport with EJ22, and I wondered if I should just get my info online or bother with a Chilton or Haynes manual?

 

I just got the car, as the 3rd owner, I know that the timing belt is due, so I have already ordered a kit that includes waterpump, new idlers and such, this will be my first foray with an EJ22, kinda funny the last time I had work done on my Brat, I traded a low mileage Impreza motor for some work on it!  (Thanks again John!)

 

Anyway thanks for any and all advice!

[rabbidrabbit]

I watched a few vids and did mine(ej22) super simple to do. I only watched the to get a better understanding of Subaru since it was my first.

[lmdew]

You can search this form as well.  Lots of info here.

 

What's the mileage?

 

I usually do not do the water pump as the Subaru pumps are very good.  

I'll change the Cam and Crank Seals, Reseal the oil pump and lock tight the cover plate screws, new Gates T-Belt and all the idler pulleys.  Gates Kit is good.

If it's leaking oil from the rear breather plate, it's a good time to pull the engine and take care of everything while the engine is out.

[FlyB0y]

Heya thanks for the responses, 

 

The car has 193k miles, but was driven mostly highway by a friend, he got it from his father who bought it new, so I am the third owner.  

 

The current problem however is not the T-belt, I wonder if it might be the fuel pump, I bought a '88 XT-6 years ago for cheap because it's fuel pump had stopped working, or rather, the relay had failed.  Seems that the fuel pumps might still be a weak link, or just one of the first wear items? (tow truck driver made the suggestion).

 

I believe this car uses OBD-II, I am new to all of that, I have always worked on older carbureted cars with less sophisticated electronics (85 Brat was my last that I really worked on), would renting a scanner at my local Autozone tell me if the fuel pump is out?  Otherwise I guess I can just disconnect the fuel line and see when happens when I turn it over?

 

I bought the car knowing I would need to put on a timing belt very soon, as I believe it has only had it replaced once (manual says replace every 60K miles? if so, it's long overdue).  The PS and AC belts are also pretty warn, so I have those coming in the mail too.

 

What spark plug socket size do I need?  I don't seem to have one small enough to fit, didn't realize they were so tiny on this car, I would guess 14mm?  Maybe 15mm?

 

I have ordered a Gates Kit, and as I have no idea how much some of this stuff has been done, I plan on replacing the water pump just for peace of mind, but I appreciate knowing they don't always need to be replaced with the T-belt.

 

Is re-sealing the Oil Pump as simple as using some permatex silicone sealer, or do I need to order a gasket?

 

I have the typical seepage at the cylinder head, not bad, just enough to smoke a tiny bit from time to time when it gets on the manifold, it apparently doesn't burn oil, so I am going to guess until I see a problem I'm not going to need to have the heads re-done.

 

There appears to be a bit of a leak towards the back, really slow leak, but hoping that might be where the oil pump or some other minor easy to service gasket would be?  I "could" pull the engine at some point, but right now, I am trying to just get as much out of it as possible before that becomes necessary.  I have seen some good deals locally on engines, I wonder if it wouldn't be wisest to find a low mileage EJ22 from a wreck that is otherwise in good working order?

 

I know the AT tranny has been either rebuilt or replaced once, and it has a new radiator as of a few years back.

 

The last owner drove the car 80 miles a day round trip on the highway/freeway, so he regularly serviced things either at the dealer or other trusted mechanic.

 

Can't wait to get it back on the road!  

 

When I sold my '85 Brat years ago, I thought to myself, if I get another subie, I should get an Impreza Wagon, and I really lucked out as this is just the perfect model I would have chosen, (even the color!!) needs a little body work (rear drivers door is creased and body panel behind it has a bondo job with a bit of black primer, hardly noticeable) but I just need a daily driver, so until everything mechanical has been addressed that is a low priority.

 

It wasn't really "for sale" but a friend at work overheard that I was looking for an older subie to fix up, and suggested I talk to the guy I bought it from (he JUST bought a new Tribeca  a few years ago) so this one had been sitting a few years, but he drove it 40 miles to get to where I bought it, just funny that I happen to drive it one day and it quits lol! 

[1 Lucky Texan]

is it not firing? as a test, try some starting fluid, if it fires, then it IS a fueling problem. 

 

is the CEL on? parts stores will read codes but, if the car isn't running..........

 

if you own a smartphone, you can get an ELM327 BT adapter for cheap, and downsload Torque or similar free app - very handy for working with newer cars. If you don't have a smartphone, there are handheld scanners ,or a cable you can use with laptops.

 

hopefully, it is something cheap. Dunno if that engine is interference or not.

Edited May 29, 2017 by 1 Lucky Texan

[FlyB0y]

Good point on the starting fluid, I haven't tried that yet, was cleaning things up and replacing a bolt on the driver's seat that came loose (put some locktite on it!  )

 

I will go do that now, I feel foolish for not trying that! LOL!

[idosubaru]

Read the check engine codes with a scanner.

 

Pull fuel line and check for fuel. But it's probably not the fuel pump. Subarus don't have fuel pump issues.

 

Use a Subaru water pump gaskets. Far better metal instead of thin paper.

 

Oil pump = one oring, crank seal and sealant.

 

That engine also has two cam cap orings. Replace the one on the front while it's apart. The other is on the passengers rear of engine, easy to replace.

 

Oil pump is on front of engine behind timing belt. That's why you do it with the timing belt.

 

That's an interference engine - they bend valves if the belt breaks.

 

Rear oil leak is probably valve covers. If it's rear separator the engine has to be pulled.

 

Head leak may just be valve covers - they routinely leak and always need replaced at some point.

[FlyB0y]

is it not firing? as a test, try some starting fluid, if it fires, then it IS a fueling problem. 

 

is the CEL on? parts stores will read codes but, if the car isn't running..........

 

if you own a smartphone, you can get an ELM327 BT adapter for cheap, and downsload Torque or similar free app - very handy for working with newer cars. If you don't have a smartphone, there are handheld scanners ,or a cable you can use with laptops.

 

hopefully, it didn't quit due to slipped timing, it's an interference engine.

 

Yeah, it definitely didn't break the belt yet, still turns over fine, I tried starting fluid last night, no joy, but that can mean it might actually be something simple (I still need to go get a spark plug socket, possible just needs them cleaned, I was in stop & go traffic for about 1 hour or so when it just quit suddenly and wouldn't even try to start again).

 

The CEL has been on for some time, my friend had it checked out, but it never cleared even though no problem was found, so maybe I'll eventually find something there.  I need to go get a socket, so maybe I can borrow a code reader at the same time, where does it plug-in?

[1 Lucky Texan]

plugs in near your left knee in driving position - if it's like my soobs.

 

the belt can be unbroken, but still slip time enough to prevent starting. the toothed idler is a common failure point. I suppose the tensioner might be next....

 

you could have a failed crank or cam sensor - hopefully a stored code will tell us.

 

it's sometimes helpful to read, write down the codes - THEN clear them. Try to start the car and see if a code is set again and read that new one. Sorta separates 'critical' codes from ancillary codes that may just follow the primary failure.

 

one thing, do you smell fuel? it occurs to me the car could be flooded. If you pull a sparkplug - would it be wet? or does the exhaust smell like fuel?

 

anyway - getting the codes read could be the best thing right now.

[FlyB0y]

Read the check engine codes with a scanner.

 

Pull fuel line and check for fuel. But it's probably not the fuel pump. Subarus don't have fuel pump issues.

 

Use a Subaru water pump gaskets. Far better metal instead of thin paper.

 

Oil pump = one oring, crank seal and sealant.

 

That engine also has two cam cap orings. Replace the one on the front while it's apart. The other is on the passengers rear of engine, easy to replace.

 

Oil pump is on front of engine behind timing belt. That's why you do it with the timing belt.

 

That's an interference engine - they bend valves if the belt breaks.

 

Rear oil leak is probably valve covers. If it's rear separator the engine has to be pulled.

 

Head leak may just be valve covers - they routinely leak and always need replaced at some point.

 

Yeah, hoping it's just valve covers, cheap and easy to fix, would probably be good to use a little mild de-greaser like simple green and a brush, don't want to risk getting water on old components with something too aggressive, and just see where exactly oil is coming from.

 

Thanks on the cam & oil pump seals, been looking at videos, should have parts in Wednesday to do all the belts, seals and new plugs.  Today I will just get a socket and see what the plugs look like, might get lucky!  Anyway, not going to risk the timing belt, so not driving it until I get all those parts in and replace them.  Thanks again everyone for the info!

[idosubaru]

Yes that car OBD port is just like LT said - by left knee.  get your head WAAAAY down there to see it, don't just expect it to wave at you!  lol

and you're correct  that's the starting point. 

 

get the code and post it here - don't tell us what the auto guy said it is (like the tow driver saying fuel pump....nope, unlikely). 

 

but checking fuel is easy - phillips head screw - crank - does fuel flow out like a garden hose or not?

 

Advance and Autozone NAPA Oreillys and others all scan codes for free. 

 

If ou're rolling newer cars with OBD systems it's wise to just get a cheap Ebay scanner - they're like $35 and well worth having.  or the bluetooth ones as well.  laptop cables are great but less portable.  scanner and OBD bluetooth can be left in the glovebox or a work bag.

 

running and then dying to a no start condition is odd, that's usually timing belt.  but on an otherwise unknown vehicle with so many unknowns - MAF will cause a no start, really bad plugs/wires that have never been changed, crank and cam sensor are the most likely. 

 

knock sensor is possible if it was previously running very rough, but unlikely to go from "fine" to "no start" so abruptly.  $8 ebay specials are great solutions here.

[FlyB0y]

plugs in near your left knee in driving position - if it's like my soobs.

 

the belt can be unbroken, but still slip time enough to prevent starting. the toothed idler is a common failure point. I suppose the tensioner might be next....

 

you could have a failed crank or cam sensor - hopefully a stored code will tell us.

 

it's sometimes helpful to read, write down the codes - THEN clear them. Try to start the car and see if a code is set again and read that new one. Sorta separates 'critical' codes from ancillary codes that may just follow the primary failure.

 

one thing, do you smell fuel? it occurs to me the car could be flooded. If you pull a sparkplug - would it be wet? or does the exhaust smell like fuel?

 

anyway - getting the codes read could be the best thing right now.

 

All good info, thanks!  I do not smell fuel, but I have not tried to start it much, don't want to run down the battery.  Really killed me that I couldn't even get a spark plug loose, thank goodness for AAA!  

[FlyB0y]

Yes that car OBD port is just like LT said - by left knee.  get your head WAAAAY down there to see it, don't just expect it to wave at you!  lol

and you're correct  that's the starting point. 

 

get the code and post it here - don't tell us what the auto guy said it is (like the tow driver saying fuel pump....nope, unlikely). 

 

but checking fuel is easy - phillips head screw - crank - does fuel flow out like a garden hose or not?

 

Advance and Autozone NAPA Oreillys and others all scan codes for free. 

 

If ou're rolling newer cars with OBD systems it's wise to just get a cheap Ebay scanner - they're like $35 and well worth having.  or the bluetooth ones as well.  laptop cables are great but less portable.  scanner and OBD bluetooth can be left in the glovebox or a work bag.

 

running and then dying to a no start condition is odd, that's usually timing belt.  but on an otherwise unknown vehicle with so many unknowns - MAF will cause a no start, really bad plugs/wires that have never been changed, crank and cam sensor are the most likely. 

 

knock sensor is possible if it was previously running very rough, but unlikely to go from "fine" to "no start" so abruptly.  $8 ebay specials are great solutions here.

 

Thanks!  Been a LONG time since I worked on a car, been driving a Saturn Vue that has been pretty much trouble free for the last 10 yrs, so I am a bit out of practice.  Always wanted to get into the EJ22 game!

 

Should I be able to get a MAF locally or just Ebay/Amazon my best bet?  There used to be a good import auto parts store on McLoughlin not far from me, even had parts in stock for my '85 brat some years back!  Hopefully they are still around, kinda of nervous getting too much stuff on Amazon or anywhere online, as I cannot easily return/exchange it if/when they give me the wrong parts.

 

Amazon does seem to have a system in place to try and properly identify parts by vehicle however.  Heading out soon to get that scanner & spark-plug socket. 

[rabbidrabbit]

My Walmart had a $20 OBD scanner, works well for my Subie, Scion, neighbours Toyota and Kia. 

[1 Lucky Texan]

GG - is that 2.2 interference?

 

I might be wrong on that.

[idosubaru]

Yep all 1997 and up engines are interference.

 

MAF Id just get a used one. They don't fail often and are easy to replace. I'd put a used one in a trunk spare tires area before I'd get an aftermarket or expensive new. Maybe aftermarkets are fine I don't have experience with them because they don't fail enough for me to try.

[FlyB0y]

Ok!  I got it to throw 4 codes, it says:

 

PO325

 

PO400

 

1 of 4 Knock Sensor 1 Circuit Bank 1

 

2 of 4 Crank shaft Position Sensor A Circuit Range / Performance

 

3 of 4 Camshaft Position Sensor A Circuit Bank 1 or Single Sensor

 

4 of 4 Exhaust Gas Recirculation Flow

 

So, if I am not mistaken, the crank and cam shaft sensors might be indicating that the timing belt and or tensioners are warn enough that it slipped a tooth, thus stopping the engine from running?

 

It has passed smog, so I guess that the other two sensors might not be necessary to replace?

[idosubaru]

Good work.

 

1. With multiple codes on an unknown engine the best bet is to clear all the codes and see which come back first.

 

2. Check timing marks first to make sure you're not on the edge of a mechanical cliff. Drivers and passengers side timing covers are only held in place by three 10mm bolts. Remove those and check timing before proceeding.

 

3. Knock sensors crack often at the base or otherwise fail. $8 eBay units are a great option. Car usually starts and runs but retards timing something fierce and drives bad.

 

4. They can run with the EGR removed entirely so I'm assuming that code is unlikely to be important to getting the car running. But I'm sure it could cause problems too.

[FlyB0y]

Kewl, I will have the timing belt and all the seals Wednesday, so I am thinking I will just start removing the fans and such to prepare for that, are either the EGR or knock sensors something that would prevent a good DEQ test?  It's good until 2018, I didn't get an instruction manual with the tester, I can get it back, didn't seem to "clear" when I messed with it (I returned it today thinking I had a pretty slam-dunk indication that the timing belt had slipped a tooth or something) but it did upon attempting to start the engine, add in the P0325 (knock sensor) a second time on top of the other four once.

 

I also know that the previous owner had a CEL that wouldn't clear, but he didn't know what it was, probably assumed that it wasn't critical since it passed DEQ?  Wouldn't a CEL automatically fail DEQ?  Must have passed before the CEL started.

 

He is a car guy though, works at a business restoring classic T-bird parts (The Bird Nest in West Linn) so I would think he would have known to run a OBD check.

[idosubaru]

Knock sensor code twice? Replace it.

 

You'd be surprised how many mechanically inclined people don't navigate new territory well, I wouldn't make any assumptions. I don't put much weight into advice unless they have platform specific experience. I've heard some of the top mechanics in the United States give terrible advice for platforms they don't have experience with.

 

Each state varies as regards to emissions and inspections requirements. Previous owner may have simply cleared it before each test if it was intermittent? While a check engine light can be on for 100,000 miles they often can be cleared at least for a very short time for passing.

Edited May 30, 2017 by grossgary

[FlyB0y]

Good to know thanks!  I will have most of the stuff I need to replace the T-belt and common seals inc water pump, should I get the code reader back and try using it some more before performing the T-belt replacement?  I can probably find instructions on it online.

 

I also wanted your opinion on how to best remove the flywheel, I have seen in a video where someone put a breaker bar on the 22mm nut and then turned the engine over to loosen it, but then I will need an effective way to hold it when I put it back on, I have heard of either using a special clamp for holding the flywheel, or a screwdriver in a timing cover towards the back of the engine?  I'm pretty sure I could once again rent a special tool to hold the flywheel from Autozone.  The screwdriver method makes me nervous.

[1 Lucky Texan]

good work flyboy

[forester2002s]

The screwdriver method works just fine.

There's a hole in the right-side of the engine, about half-way up.

Insert the largest flat-blade screwdriver that will fit in the hole, and the blade will then lock the outer (starter) gear-teeth.

Works for loosening and tightening the flywheel bolts.

No need for a special tool.

[idosubaru]

Screw driver is fine and done all the time.

[FlyB0y]

Great, thanks for all the advice!  I will know more tomorrow when parts come in, how does one generally judge the life of the water-pump?  Is it like others where if it needed replacement it will start to leak a small amount?  I plan on replacing it this time just because of 193K miles and not knowing when it was last replaced (and it came with the kit for replacing the seals and timing belt).  

 

I can't wait to have it back on the road, so far it has been much easier than I expected coming from the older EA 81 motor I had on my Brat, there seems to be much less difficulty with the newer motors than I expected.