GeneralDisorder Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Post a video of the noise. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My64bit Posted June 19, 2017 Author Share Posted June 19, 2017 Post a video of the noise. GD I can not figure out how to upload a picture or a video? I know I loaded a couple of pics before, now it asks for a link? I have not yet made a video. I will get that in a few days and if anything load it to another site and link it. Any particular site that works good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Most people, if they use a different site, go with YouTube. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) gd is definitely the expert here, but from reading, it seems to me, rod knock always is progressively worse with increase rpms. Tensioner noise may smooth-out, then might come back in at a different rpm 'range', then smooth-out again. to me, you have tensioner noise. the more recent noise might be caused by water in the spark plug tubes???? If the car is new to you, I'd do a full and 'proper' timing system service - not 'just' the tensioner. I suppose slapping a tensioner on first though, as a diagnostic test, could tell you if you want to procede. GD - does that engine have a 7mm oil pump? anyway, at those miles, I'd consider getting an engine from a wreck with maybe half the miles, put MLS headgaskets on, a timing system service, maybe a 10mm oil pump and swap engines. Edited June 19, 2017 by 1 Lucky Texan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 EJ22s are a cheap in some areas, easily bought for less than the $300 tool you're talking about. Www.car-part.com. Last one I bought was a more expensive low mileage unit from a local reputable place for $350, cheaper ones were available. By the time you buy headgaskets, more expensive belts, and repair an EJ25D it barely makes sense even cost wise....forget overheating and reliability. No interference, cheaper parts, easier to work on, no headgasket issue, great engines.... you can sell the original engine and recoupe half or more of your costs, less the core cost. I assumed you'd eventually figure out you should check the tensioner. Pull the timing belt covers and run it with no timing covers - you should see the timing tensioner moving. It doesn't take long at all. Like 30 minutes. If finances are a concern - diagnose it first then decide what to do. Don't guess. But yes if you repair - get a timing kit with pulleys and tensioner. Generally you need Subaru parts for quality. Gates was a go to brand that included largely OEM pulleys but that seems to not be the case now. EJ water pump failure is rare but at that mileage a new one is wise. An EJ25D timing belt can be replaced in less than an hour...granted first timer and more parts will quickly escalate that but don't let this scare you. They're easy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Also the Subaru FSMs are all over the Internet for free. So is the EJ25D timing belt: The following will all have the same EJ25D timing belt procedure: Any 1998 Forester or Impreza RS EJ25 1996-1999 Legacy or Outback EJ25 Get an FSM for any of those and the timing belt is identical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 The 25D was always a 10mm pump engine. It wasn't till the 251 came along. Strangely the Legacy 251 came with the 7mm and the Impreza/Forester 251 came with the 9mm. Explain that one.... heavier car with smaller pump? I guess fuel economy. Really, really, REALLY stupid idea Subaru! Like the low tension rings in the FB. WTF? GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 ran across a mention that the low-tension coated piston rings was Toyota technology.thanx Toyota! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) It's pretty much every manufacturer. They have gone to low friction to increase economy and that pretty much requires oil consumption. Unfortunately the idiot engineers didn't accompany the low tension oil burning rings with larger oil capacity, and dip sticks that don't go below minimum when it's two quarts down. Oil consumption due to reduced engine friction is here to stay - but you need to make it not the owners problem. People can't be expected to check the oil every 1k miles and top it off. That's a PR disaster. People freak out at having to add a quart. Not realizing that their car gets MUCH higher fuel economy because of the reduced friction and the quart of oil is nothing compared to the fuel economy savings. No matter how you sex it up, oil consumption will send some potential buyers running in fear. So they just say nothing. And get sued. It's sooooo stupid. Hello? Subaru! Extra capacity and change the dipstick you dipsticks! GD Edited June 20, 2017 by GeneralDisorder 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My64bit Posted June 20, 2017 Author Share Posted June 20, 2017 Also the Subaru FSMs are all over the Internet for free. So is the EJ25D timing belt: The following will all have the same EJ25D timing belt procedure: Any 1998 Forester or Impreza RS EJ25 1996-1999 Legacy or Outback EJ25 Get an FSM for any of those and the timing belt is identical. I am planing on pulling it apart, likely this week. I will check the tensioner, if bad I will replace the tensioner, belts, idlers and water pump. I downloaded the service manual PDF and printed out the section for the timing belt procedure. Is the EJ22 the SOHC engine? quite honestly I would much rather have a SOHC, I work on bikes a lot, SOHC engines are much friendlier to work on that DOHC egines If switching to an EJ22 does it use the same computer and electronics as the EJ25? If I can keep it going on the cheap I will keep it and drive it, otherwise I would rather have a truck. Money is very tight for us right now and will be for a long time. Thank you for your Input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My64bit Posted June 20, 2017 Author Share Posted June 20, 2017 It's pretty much every manufacturer. They have gone to low friction to increase economy and that pretty much requires oil consumption. Unfortunately the idiot engineers didn't accompany the low tension oil burning rings with larger oil capacity, and dip sticks that don't go below minimum when it's two quarts down. Oil consumption due to reduced engine friction is here to stay - but you need to make it not the owners problem. People can't be expected to check the oil every 1k miles and top it off. That's a PR disaster. People freak out at having to add a quart. Not realizing that their car gets MUCH higher fuel economy because of the reduced friction and the quart of oil is nothing compared to the fuel economy savings. No matter how you sex it up, oil consumption will send some potential buyers running in fear. So they just say nothing. And get sued. It's sooooo stupid. Hello? Subaru! Extra capacity and change the dipstick you dipsticks! GD I have a Toyota Corolla, 1 Qt of 10-40 Mobile 1 every 1500-1800 miles. It has about 145k miles on it, strong engine. I know the new shorter piston skirts the manufactures have gone to were for the greater cause of economy as well, but those short skirts are also the cause if severe piston slap in low mileage engines. I am starting to think I might also be hearing some slap, but it sounds different than what I am used to hearing in old air cooled engines with long piston skirts. I will try and get a video and see if I can get it loaded to YouTube, tried once before a couple years back and it was a no go for some reason. I do photography and know it well, not too familiar with video. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 My brother-in-law's Toyota seized its engine during an oil consumption test! dealership didn't believe him when he complained of excessive consumption. He was a staunch multiple Toyota owner - now driving a Honda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My64bit Posted June 20, 2017 Author Share Posted June 20, 2017 My brother-in-law's Toyota seized its engine during an oil consumption test! dealership didn't believe him when he complained of excessive consumption. He was a staunch multiple Toyota owner - now driving a Honda. My Corolla is the first Toyota I have ever owned. It's a decent car for cheap reliable economic transportation. Beyond that I am not horribly impressed. It's cheaply built, cramped and causes me pain to drive far. It only gets about 5 mpg more than my 2001 Lincoln Town Car did. I bought the Lincoln with 91k miles, it had over 250k on it when I got rid of it. Still looked like new inside & out, drove like a new car, ran like a new car. That was one of the smoothest, quietest and most comfortable cars I have owned. I would like to find another one with low miles and as nice as my last one. I tend to prefer full sized cars & trucks though, I'm 6'4", 280 Lbs with severe spinal deterioration and damage, these small cars are not good for my spine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 Lucky Texan Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 My Corolla is the first Toyota I have ever owned. It's a decent car for cheap reliable economic transportation. Beyond that I am not horribly impressed. It's cheaply built, cramped and causes me pain to drive far. It only gets about 5 mpg more than my 2001 Lincoln Town Car did. I bought the Lincoln with 91k miles, it had over 250k on it when I got rid of it. Still looked like new inside & out, drove like a new car, ran like a new car. That was one of the smoothest, quietest and most comfortable cars I have owned. I would like to find another one with low miles and as nice as my last one. I tend to prefer full sized cars & trucks though, I'm 6'4", 280 Lbs with severe spinal deterioration and damage, these small cars are not good for my spine.my youngest daughter has back pain and when we were replacing her car, the most economical vehicle we investigated that had back-friendly seating was a Chevy Impala. have you ever tried back support product like those made by Obus Forme' ? it seems to help many folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaru Scott Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 It's pretty much every manufacturer. They have gone to low friction to increase economy and that pretty much requires oil consumption. Unfortunately the idiot engineers didn't accompany the low tension oil burning rings with larger oil capacity, and dip sticks that don't go below minimum when it's two quarts down. Oil consumption due to reduced engine friction is here to stay - but you need to make it not the owners problem. People can't be expected to check the oil every 1k miles and top it off. That's a PR disaster. People freak out at having to add a quart. Not realizing that their car gets MUCH higher fuel economy because of the reduced friction and the quart of oil is nothing compared to the fuel economy savings. No matter how you sex it up, oil consumption will send some potential buyers running in fear. So they just say nothing. And get sued. It's sooooo stupid. Hello? Subaru! Extra capacity and change the dipstick you dipsticks! GD Same old story, all over again... We finally get to this plateau where the engines are efficient, and incredibly durable, then the bean counters have to come along and **** it up! It's all about new car sales and the pressure to stretch current technology, which is working just fine, to the limits in order to beat the specifications, namely, "cents per mile," of the other manufacturers. That's why Subarus recommended oil change intervals went to 7500 miles. Anybody on here leave their oil in for that long? Didn't think so. That's also why we've got this oil now that pours like freakin water, and "tighter clearances." And now with the reduced friction rings... Makes me just wanna hoard EJ22s and EG33s... okay, so I already do... my point is, I just hate to see Subaru going this way. I know they have to sell cars, but I truly believe word of mouth from satisfied owners is infinitely more powerful than advertised MPG. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My64bit Posted June 20, 2017 Author Share Posted June 20, 2017 my youngest daughter has back pain and when we were replacing her car, the most economical vehicle we investigated that had back-friendly seating was a Chevy Impala. have you ever tried back support product like those made by Obus Forme' ? it seems to help many folks. Mostly I need a larger wide seat that is good and firm, I need to be able to move around and change position and I can not do that in these little cars. Big full size cars and trucks just fit me better. I am 6'4" 280 pounds. I just do not fit well in these tiny cars. And with four herniated discs, multiple pinched nerves in my lumbar and three herniated discs in my neck with multiple pinched nerves ans stenosis, bone spurs and deterioration throughout my spine, it's hard to get comfortable. I have to stop to get out and move around about every 30 minutes. Working on things is really slow going, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My64bit Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 It IS NOT a lifter since a 98 Forester doesn't have hydraulic lifters unless someone swapped in an older 2.2 engine or a 96 2.5 engine. Could be piston slap, could be timing belt tensioner, could be rod bearing. Don't attempt a rebuild. It's not for a DIY'er. Get another engine or bring it to me if you really want a rebuild. GD Ok GD, i just pulled the left side timing belt cover, belt is hopping a little at idle, knock was soft with 1/4 inch deflection to none at all, knock was fading in & out with the belt deflection, throttle up a little and the knock gets louder and more solid and the belt starts to deflect a good 1/2 inch or more. My question now is, what do you think of the cheaper belt tensioners? I have found them from $37 online to $183 in the auto parts stores. Your input one quality would be much appreciated. Also, should I replace the idlers as well even if they are tight and spin smooth? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My64bit Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 Same old story, all over again... We finally get to this plateau where the engines are efficient, and incredibly durable, then the bean counters have to come along and **** it up! It's all about new car sales and the pressure to stretch current technology, which is working just fine, to the limits in order to beat the specifications, namely, "cents per mile," of the other manufacturers. That's why Subarus recommended oil change intervals went to 7500 miles. Anybody on here leave their oil in for that long? Didn't think so. That's also why we've got this oil now that pours like freakin water, and "tighter clearances." And now with the reduced friction rings... Makes me just wanna hoard EJ22s and EG33s... okay, so I already do... my point is, I just hate to see Subaru going this way. I know they have to sell cars, but I truly believe word of mouth from satisfied owners is infinitely more powerful than advertised MPG. I would go 7500 running pure synthetic, 3500 running standard oil, Are the EJ22 and EJ33 both SOHC engines? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 You cannot use anything but the stock NTN tensioner. All the aftermarket ones are complete garbage. GD 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My64bit Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 You cannot use anything but the stock NTN tensioner. All the aftermarket ones are complete garbage. GD So even the ones from Napa, AutoZone, etc. are no good? I have not yet priced one through Subaru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My64bit Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 You cannot use anything but the stock NTN tensioner. All the aftermarket ones are complete garbage. GD GD, do you happen to know approximately what an OEM tensioner costs? too late to get a price from the dealers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Amazon $90 Dealer around 150, maybe a little less. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B001T9FV9Q/ref=mp_s_a_1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1498014330&sr=8-1-fkmr1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=subaru+NTN+timing+tensioner 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My64bit Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 Amazon $90 Dealer around 150, maybe a little less. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B001T9FV9Q/ref=mp_s_a_1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1498014330&sr=8-1-fkmr1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=subaru+NTN+timing+tensioner The Amazon unit though is aftermarket? or is it OEM? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 That is the factory NTN unit, yes. No on NAPA or AutoZone. All junk. Get NTN tensioner, Aisin water pump, and Mitsuboshi timing belt. The idler aren't usually a problem but we stick to Koyo and NSK. GD 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My64bit Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 That is the factory NTN unit, yes. No on NAPA or AutoZone. All junk. Get NTN tensioner, Aisin water pump, and Mitsuboshi timing belt. The idler aren't usually a problem but we stick to Koyo and NSK. GD Ok, I can deal with the $90 Amazon unit. Is NTN the brand name? I will look for the other other items by brand as well then. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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