er27 turbo?

[edian727]

So my xt6 has developed the Tick of Death. also my buddy is gonna give me his old td05-16g. im seriously considering putting that td05 on the er27, with turbo ea82 rods, pistons, valve's and valve springs, i can find these pretty cheap at my local wreckers. also seen a HEI distributor conversion, witch will probably happen since no1 has made the turbo/xt6 distributor pick-up work with megasquirt, and i know the hei will.

 

anyone know if there are aftermarket head bolts, or any bottom end bolts available for the ea82 or er27?(same just 1.5x as many on the er27) or if they ea82 turbos use different head bolts? a good company that can make a custom MLS head gasket? how much power the stock turbo ea82 rods and pistons can handle? im hoping i can do 15-18 psi and somewere around 250-300 at the flywheel. o and maybe a uprated clutch that'll fit the xt6 input shaft? or is it worth trying to find a rx trans? i wont give up 4wd or awd, lol.

[idosubaru]

Headbolts are the same EA82T and ER27.

 

Nothing available for head bolt or gasket upgrades. You can search bolts and studs it was discussed long ago when demand was highest (but still atrociously low).

[GeneralDisorder]

Waste of effort. There are no longer parts availibilty to feed the necessary R&D by trial and error.

 

Have you ever successfully rebuilt a Subaru bottom end? It's not a simple process.

 

There are too many variables and it's untrodden territory. The number of failures required to work out the magic combination exceeds the available parts supply and I'm guessing your budget as well if you are even considering putting a used turbocharger on a newly rebuilt bottom end.

 

Will. Not. Happen.

 

GD

[Subaru Scott]

Replace your oil pump shaft seal and enjoy it as it is while you research other alternatives.

 

If you really want to get more power, swap an EG33 in. 

[skishop69]

What GD said. I wouldn't bother. It's been done, and although it would be fun, parts are scarce to non existent. If you do go through with it, be aware you're going to be into a full rebuild somewhere in the neighborhood of $1500-$2000 with machining, headwork and parts. Then you have to start factoring in all the extras to add the turbo, make it work, etc. I certainly wouldn't slap a turbo on an old ER27 and run it. It will bite it in short order.

[jsyme]

Interesting.. I'm unfamiliar with the XT6/ER27. I did some research and here is a thumbnail of it...

 

This stood out the most to me: The valve timing system is belt-drive using two individual timing belts, curiously one belt uses a spring tensioner (like the EA82) whilst the other uses a hydraulic tensioner (like the EJ22). 

 

Reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_EA_engine#ER27 

 

ER27

Subaru ER engine

Manufacturer    Subaru

Production    1988–1991

Combustion chamber

Configuration    flat-6 petrol engine

Displacement    2.7 L (2672 cc)

Cylinder bore    92 mm

Piston stroke    67 mm

Cylinder block alloy    aluminium

Cylinder head alloy    aluminium

Valvetrain    SOHC

Combustion

Fuel type    Petrol/gasoline

Power output    112 kW (150 hp)

Chronology

Successor    Subaru EG engine

The ER series is a flat-6 engine with a displacement of 2.7L manufactured by Subaru, a division of Fuji Heavy Industries. The ER series has aluminium engine blocks and aluminium cylinder heads. It is found on the 1988-1991 Subaru Alcyone VX (XT-6 in the United States).

 

Created as a refined luxury engine with improved power over the EA82T, Subaru introduced the ER series engine in 1988 exclusively to be featured in the Subaru Alcyone VX. Like the EA series engines, the ER series engine featured 2-valve cylinder heads with hydraulic lash adjusters and the block shared the same bore and stroke. While recognised as bearing many similarities to the Subaru EA82 engine, there are numerous differences in design between the two engines and a large portion of parts are unique to the ER27. The oil and water pumps are unique to the ER27, sharing similar bolt patterns and design to the EA82, but being of a higher flow in both cases.[3] The intake manifold uses a two piece design with a lower section bolting to the heads containing the coolant bridge, injectors and various vacuum lines. The upper intake manifold then bolts to the lower section and is unlike the EA82 or EJ22 "spider" manifold designs in that there is no central plenum chamber. The valve timing system is belt-drive using two individual timing belts, curiously one belt uses a spring tensioner (like the EA82) whilst the other uses a hydraulic tensioner (like the EJ22). Both JDM and USDM versions of the ER27 used multi-point electronic fuel injection. The ER27 designation was the first time Subaru incorporated the engine's displacement into the series name and all future engines have retained this nomenclature.

[crazyhorse001]

Ages ago there was a running supercharged xt6. The owner paid a shop cubic yards of money to have it done. In the end, the car made blah numbers on the dyno. Under 300hp iirc. For the investment of time and money, it was underwhelming to say the least. EA/ER heads just dont flow well enough to make big numbers.

[Gloyale]

Replace your oil pump shaft seal and enjoy it as it is while you research other alternatives.

 

If you really want to get more power, swap an EG33 in. 

 

Can really get oil pump seals for the er27 anymore.

 

I've been looking.

[DaveT]

You might have to measure it and go to an industrial bearing supply shop. Order by dimensions.

[Subaru Scott]

Yeah, ^ and try to find one with a double lip, like an outboard motor prop shaft seal, so it won't ever SUCK AIR!! 

[edian727]

so heres the deal, i cannot afford a swap, and i am capable of rebuilding the engine. if im not gonna rebuild it i guarantee ill have to get rid of it before i can get another engine in. i could swap to a ej pretty cheaply, but in the end i wont be happy. no way to afford a non-wrecking yard engine. but if im rebuilding it, i can spend time to get it put together, and spread the cost out more. to be honest my plan would be to rebuild with best parts i can, drop it back in with stock harness, ecu, and no turbo. the slowly build a proper turbo set-up. im not worried about blowing the motor trying to get things right, monitor your emp, egt's, iat, boost, and all the other engine vitals, and thats gonna tell you whats going on with how close to proper turbo size you are. also the td05's have tons of turbine housing available, lots of different intake sides, plus its a talon turbo so lots of different aftermarket options available too. and when i go to a standalone it would be tuned without turbo first, and not to mention i have to use a myriad of different parts, like new injectors, throttle body, fpr, a crank position sensor, a different distributor signal, i would like to go away from MAF, ect. witch will make parts much cheaper, as they will probably be GM parts.

 

but to be honest, i wish more people would be supportive, its like pulling teeth. i only want 250-300, witch seems reasonable enough. i wish i knew if it was, i know people have pushed the ea82, and i should be able to attain close to 1.5x that. but i guess the path i choose will be the one people never support. its sad really. so is the advice then to just fix the oil pump and lifters and leave it? i mean the ToD is fixable, but if im in there why shouldn't i rebuild it? why shouldnt i try to turbo it? it can be tuned better then stock, and use parts that are still available. im not a child, im capable, intelligent, and take my time, all things that actually mean i can do it right, change things if or when i need to. this isnt like im gonna throw it together in a few weeks and think i can make some 400+ hp. o well. maybe i shouldn't even try.

 

its not like used parts are bad parts, thats just pure BS. if the turbo has problems i can rebuild it. theres lots of used turbo placed on top of newly rebuilt motors, hmm... good used turbo for free, or pay 600 for a rebuilt one or 1000+ for a new one. budgeting tells me that new turbo is absurd, i can rebuild the free turbo and have a rebuilt turbo for a lot less then 600. i also plan to use junkyard intercooler, radiator, throttle body, rods, and pistons at least. i dont know why this is bad, its not. i can test the parts, i know how, and have the tools to do so. letting good parts get crushed is bad, not saving them and using them. i guess i just dont understand much at all....

[idosubaru]

The headbolt questions are answered, just go rebuild it if you're that capable and determined. Doesnt matter if others aren't cheering you on. It's not a big deal to go do something different others wouldn't do or say is a less desirable option- most of us on here have done that before....if not 100 times...

 

The number of threads where people want to turbo a Subaru and how many of those follow through is a near zero percentage. So part of it comes from that. Had you already started the build and had some questions there would probably be less push back.

 

You can run it with turbo pistons and it's drivable that way even without a turbo.

[GeneralDisorder]

You can't do any of this.

 

You are, manifestly, not capable of rebuilding the engine, nor are you capable of "rebuilding" the turbo... not unless you have a VSR Balancing machine laying around. You might install a new CHRA, but that is not technically rebuilding.

 

Engine rebuilding of a Subaru split block engine is not a process that you will be successful at the first time around. It is *barely* a skill I can teach with hands on training. Without the experience or hands on training by a master you will not succeed. There are no reference materials for this process and don't think the service manual is going to help - it is useless.

 

Don't do this. It is beyond your skill and your budget. Get an EJ (don't rebuild that either) or an EG33.

 

We haven't even discussed the engine management. That is a whole different discussion, and if you plan on using megasquat (not a typo) you will fail for a whole extra set of reasons. Not the least of which is Subaru engines are VERY sensitive to detonation and megasquirt has terrible support for knock control. You'll beat the bearing right out of it.

 

In any case you can't do it because you can't get the parts to do it. So this is dead on the vine anyway.

 

GD

[DaveT]

I don't see the answers as being unhelpful.  There is a ton of experience on this forum.  Making the long story short, it will be less work and money and time to swap in an EJ than adding a turbo to an EAxx.   And no reliability penalty.

 

I've read loads of threads about this mod and that mod to get more power out of an EA82.  [it would be similar for an ER]  Loads of time and or money, for a small gain, along with a loss in reliability, if not failure.

 

If lots of people here had done these mods, and had success, we'd all be pointing to it.

 

I have thought many times about how it would be nice to have more power in my EA82 cars.  But seeing what I've seen done, and tried reading threads for years, the only way I would consider it [based on the return on investment of money and time] is to swap in an EJ22.   But then I'd be loosing reliability in the rest of the drive line, so I'm not so fired up about it any more.

I have had great success running these cars for long miles / time with high reliability.  I don't think they were designed with huge safety margins to handle extra power.

[skishop69]

OK, let's everybody cool down a bit. We are trying to tell you it's a bad idea, because it's been done with tons of money thrown at it with less than spectacular results. I've done performance engine building, performance tuning and programming to OBD1 vehicles and I can tell you this: When you start out, THERE IS A LOT OF TRIAL AND ERROR, which will hit you in the pocket book. In order to build an engine that is capable of 1HP per cubic inch, you will spend thousands. BTDT You MUST start with a platform that has the ability to accept the performance gains you're looking for. The ER27 simply does not have that. By design, the heads and the intake flow like molasses in January. No amount of porting or custom one off intake is going to fix that. Second, the rods and bearings will NOT take it. Years ago I picked up an ER27 to do just what you're thinking and drop it in my Brat. I had access to computer modeling for performance builds and a friend with a Masters degree in internal combustion engine design who now works for Roush Racing. The end result of countless hours of modeling and reworking engine components was this: The most this engine will make is 250HP after porting the heads, building custom rods, running 12psi of boost, high volume fuel pump with a controller, Z car injectors, MSD coil and ignition controller, stand alone fuel management with sensitive knock control, forged pistons with molly rings from Ram engines, custom copper head gaskets from Flatout Gaskets, an intercooler and numerous other bits and pieces. We did think we could make 300 (maybe) if we did custom rod bearings, cryo treated the crank so it wouldn't grenade, Timesert'd the case to accept head studs instead of bolts and turned up the boost. All for a measly 6 grand estimated total at which point, he was certain the case would explode like Hiroshima. Doubling the horse power of an ER27 and making it RELIABLE (which it barely was in the first place) is going to set you back at least a few thousand. There is a reason it was executed from the Subaru line up so quickly. They realized they f*cked up, pardon my French. The engine, by performance standards, is a worthless, steaming pile of cow dung. Figuratively speaking. lol Everyone has a dream, and people should respect those dreams. The reality is, we are playing Devil's advocate here with experience in the aforementioned pile of dung and trying to save you from flushing money and time down the toilet with no happy ending in sight. 250HP can NOT be accomplished using available parts and it was a fact I had to accept with years of building experience under my belt. We're really trying to help here and point out the shortcomings of this engine.

[Subaru Scott]

Look man, I'm not trying to squash your dreams or quell your enthusiasm. I think it's great that you are motivated to make something out of parts and components that nobody wants, I do that all the time. I'm just trying to convey to you what I know from years and years of doing just that! Others on here are speaking from their many years of experience too. We've won many battles, and lost a few, now we know how to pick our battles.

 

One such battle is the "tick of death," which is a ridiculous name made up by people who lost that battle and LET their engines die because they never found the problem. I, for one, spent many man-hours in the 80s chasing the tick. Re-sealing cam cases, replacing lifters and oil pump o-rings. I saw others refacing/replacing cam cases, cams and cylinder heads even. Many times these repairs would "work" because it just gave enough of a boost to the system to shut them up for awhile, but it always came back. Then, one time I was dealing with one that just wouldn't shut up for anything. I tried everything. Then, just to at least physically see what kind of flow the oil pump was putting out, I removed the oil filter and attached a clear hose to the pump output port. I ran that into a bucket and then chucked up my right-angle drill to the oil pump shaft. It spun it about as fast as it would turn at aprox 1k rpm. Had great flow! But then I noticed, air bubbles... in the clear hose. It was sucking air past the shaft seal. Which appeared to be in fine shape, very pliable still, not leaking a drop of oil. So then I fixed it. And dozens after that. And as long as you haven't driven hundreds of miles with the lifters hammering, the only thing your car needs is that seal.

 

Saying the only engine you can afford is from a junkyard is absurd, unless you have found a "giveaway Don's" yard where prices are what they were 30-40 years ago. Donor cars from private individuals are the ONLY way to go for a budget build. You say you have time and patience? Great! That's exactly the position to be in to find a rusted-out, or otherwise running car with other "major" issues from someone that just needs it gone. There are running SVX's going for 500 bucks with bad bodies and transmissions. So, that's everything you need to make a super hotrod out of your car. 600 more cc's, double overhead cams and 4 valve heads! You can even swap over the hubs and brakes if you're really up for a challenge. OK, you'll need an EJ trans or an adapter for yours, but again, a donor car with a good 5-speed and diff, 2-300 bucks. Yes, I see them all the time, even here in the land of few Subarus. Just set up an alert on craigslist for any Subaru listed. 

 

The XT's are cool cars. and I'm just guessing from your location that the car has very little, if any rust. So it's worth fixing up. But don't waste a lot of time on the ER, really. If it runs good, I'd slap an oil pump seal in and start looking for a donor SVX. If you can afford a little more, Start looking at JDM STI packages. 

[edian727]

ok guys, i found all this information very useful, even if some of it is so negative its hard to not ignore it. but the fact is GD does know what he talking about, though i cant seem to find any subaru rebuild difficulties, but im gonna stop by my local independent subaru mechanic and talk to him about it. Subaru's are my cars, and i am going to rebuilding and building engines for them, period.

 

if the rods cant take 250 then its totally pointless. im just gonna reseal it, replace the lifters and go. only thing that sucks is i cant find tensioner for the left side timing belt, its the only thing i cant find other then head bolts and any bottom end replacement bolts. i wanted to do this more for fun then trying to get power. i can drop in a ej thats makes more stock then the ER27 has a dream to make, im aware of that. i would swap the whole drivetrain from a donor car, but i cant have anymore cars on my property right now. well as i said i have time and patience, just cant have a car torn down with no plan or the GF will oust it.

 

i dont mean to sound like a wongleflute, or like im ignoring everything people are saying, but just saying you cant do this, its pointless, without providing me with any information as to why isnt helping at all. it just makes me wanna dig in, and fight. the fact though is i love this car, and im gonna do right by it. theres a lot of knowledge here for sure, if there wasnt i wouldnt be here asking questions, but all to often the response is down right rude. if someone wants to do something, and you think its a bad idea, treating them like they are stupid children is not the correct path. they are more likely to dig in, get halfway in, realize why you said it was stupid(even though you barely mentioned why, if at all) and quit. but instead you could actually go through why you think its a bad idea, tell them you think its a bad idea, and let them decide. its called common courtesy, its called respect, and im sorry but respect is not earned, everyone deserves some.

 

again thanks for your response's and a extra thank you to be people who actually went into more detail about what the issues are, i knew the heads were bad, but i though they were slightly better, and i thought the ea82 turbo rods would be better then they are.

[Subaru Scott]

Great response man, you get it! 

 

1. You don't need lifters. Unless you've already beat the hell out of them. Replace the oil pump shaft seal, then flush with Seafoam, or good engine flush, or just a quart of ATF. 

 

2. Inform the GF that a donor car is the most economical way to repair/upgrade, and the left over parts can be sold for profit and actually provide a second income that the IRS will be clueless about. 

 

3. Graciously accept scolding from senior members that know what they're talking about because one day, all too soon, you'll be that crotchety senior member with no patience for stoopid noobies  

[d8usti5n]

so heres the deal, i cannot afford a swap, and i am capable of rebuilding the engine. if im not gonna rebuild it i guarantee ill have to get rid of it before i can get another engine in. i could swap to a ej pretty cheaply, but in the end i wont be happy. no way to afford a non-wrecking yard engine. but if im rebuilding it, i can spend time to get it put together, and spread the cost out more. to be honest my plan would be to rebuild with best parts i can, drop it back in with stock harness, ecu, and no turbo. the slowly build a proper turbo set-up. im not worried about blowing the motor trying to get things right, monitor your emp, egt's, iat, boost, and all the other engine vitals, and thats gonna tell you whats going on with how close to proper turbo size you are. also the td05's have tons of turbine housing available, lots of different intake sides, plus its a talon turbo so lots of different aftermarket options available too. and when i go to a standalone it would be tuned without turbo first, and not to mention i have to use a myriad of different parts, like new injectors, throttle body, fpr, a crank position sensor, a different distributor signal, i would like to go away from MAF, ect. witch will make parts much cheaper, as they will probably be GM parts.

 

but to be honest, i wish more people would be supportive, its like pulling teeth. i only want 250-300, witch seems reasonable enough. i wish i knew if it was, i know people have pushed the ea82, and i should be able to attain close to 1.5x that. but i guess the path i choose will be the one people never support. its sad really. so is the advice then to just fix the oil pump and lifters and leave it? i mean the ToD is fixable, but if im in there why shouldn't i rebuild it? why shouldnt i try to turbo it? it can be tuned better then stock, and use parts that are still available. im not a child, im capable, intelligent, and take my time, all things that actually mean i can do it right, change things if or when i need to. this isnt like im gonna throw it together in a few weeks and think i can make some 400+ hp. o well. maybe i shouldn't even try.

 

its not like used parts are bad parts, thats just pure BS. if the turbo has problems i can rebuild it. theres lots of used turbo placed on top of newly rebuilt motors, hmm... good used turbo for free, or pay 600 for a rebuilt one or 1000+ for a new one. budgeting tells me that new turbo is absurd, i can rebuild the free turbo and have a rebuilt turbo for a lot less then 600. i also plan to use junkyard intercooler, radiator, throttle body, rods, and pistons at least. i dont know why this is bad, its not. i can test the parts, i know how, and have the tools to do so. letting good parts get crushed is bad, not saving them and using them. i guess i just dont understand much at all....

I agree! The lack of support in these forums lateky is horrible. There was another thread with a guy wanting to push the limits of a ea81, and all the feedback was just ej it blah blah, your wasting your time pushing a ea81 blah blah blah.

[GeneralDisorder]

There is at least one documented EG33 running twin GT40's pushing in the neighborhood or 1200 HP. They have a billet stroker crank that takes it to a 3.6.....

 

Start with the EG33 if you want power. It's a beast.

 

As said the ER27 heads won't flow no matter what you do to them. The EJ22T heads have the same problem. They top out at about 250 HP of airflow. All the Subaru single cam heads have severe flow limitations. The dual cam heads will flow TONS of air. We have flowed 450 HP with EJ205 heads using stock valves and no porting or polishing. Just cams and 26 pounds of boost.

 

GD

[ferp420]

I managed to get around 25% more power out of my ea82 and it was alot of work any part that touches air or fuel needs to be upgraded or reworked i keep the stock motor in storage (in the car right now )and i have a hot mongral (out for rebuild.) That i tinker with i spent 3 months reading every port article every performance web page i read about chevys fords subarus touotas and hondas then i came up with my own plan folowed by 3 months of shaving porting grinding fabricating and polishing it came out good i got lucky i got around 25% more out of it and i feel the computer was strugeling to keep up but like i sead it was alot of work i also have 4 motors so i had nothing to loose and a but load of free time on my hands and a full metal shop to play in so i had copper for gaskets chunks of aluminum for spacers welders and cutters even with all this work it still wont hold a.candle to the ej22 although it comes close and i dident have to modifie the car and i can drop the stock motor back in anytime like for smog lol so if your willing to do the work you can get more power i feel my methods are repeatable and it dose shorten the life of the engine but puting a big turbo on it would be a awsome way to dispose of that old boat anchor lol

 

side note my freind spent like 20k at a subaru specialty speed shop on 2 of his roos and then took them the gl10 and knowing he had the money the shop was like no way man however they liked it so much that the extra ea82t is now on display in there front office as a piece of art history its all polished up nice and pretty lol thats about all its good for

[Gloyale]

Yeah, ^ and try to find one with a double lip, like an outboard motor prop shaft seal, so it won't ever SUCK AIR!! 

 

Yeah the shaft seal is still available.

 

It's the rubber "mickey mouse" like gasket.  It's not the same as an EA82.  That is not available from any of my sources.  

[Gloyale]

I agree! The lack of support in these forums lateky is horrible. There was another thread with a guy wanting to push the limits of a ea81, and all the feedback was just ej it blah blah, your wasting your time pushing a ea81 blah blah blah.

 

Yup.

 

Cause we know that is the most productive way to go.

 

If someone wants to upgrade obsolete platforms fine.  We are just telling them the problems that are known.  Don't want advise?  Want to do what you want?  Fine.

 

But when asked, we give the best advice possible.  Which in almost all these types of cases is "EJ" it.  

[naru]

 

Yeah the shaft seal is still available.

 

It's the rubber "mickey mouse" like gasket.  It's not the same as an EA82.  That is not available from any of my sources.

 

Here are a couple http://www.ebay.com/itm/Subaru-15066AA010-Engine-Oil-Pump-Gasket-Oil-Pump-Gasket-/322527923150?epid=1222248047&hash=item4b18298bce:g:IioAAOSwZ4dZJeGQ&vxp=mtr

 

....or maybe not once you read the fine print

Edited June 29, 2017 by naru

[Gloyale]

  

Here are a couple http://www.ebay.com/itm/Subaru-15066AA010-Engine-Oil-Pump-Gasket-Oil-Pump-Gasket-/322527923150?epid=1222248047&hash=item4b18298bce:g:IioAAOSwZ4dZJeGQ&vxp=mtr

 

....or maybe not once you read the fine print

 

 

Seller has alot of Negative feedback form folks claiming this guy doesn't actually have the parts, but tries to get them after you order them.

 

Listing shows No picture of part. 

 

I would be surprised if he actually has them.  I might order and see cause I need them, but this is a one off sale.  NOS I am guessing if it actually exists.  Or it's a 4cyl gasket which will not work.

 

Bottom line these engines are not going to be supportable for much longer.

 

That's why I am EJ swapping almost all the rest of my Xt6 projects.  I've got one running ER27 engine.  It leaks a oil a little from the HGs.  If it starts leaking internally it's gone.  

 

I will put an EJ251/3 in them and call it good.  Same horsepower, better cooling, better mileage.  Bonus.....Use an EJ power steering pump and delete troublesome Electric PS.