91 Loyale....To keep til death do us part

[Nonaof4]

So I am looking for opinions from fellow subi owners.

 

A 1991 Loyale wagon owns me and has since I drove it off the lot in 1991. In those 26 years I have put 2 engines, due to no fault of hers.

 

The overall condition of the car is excellent with almost no rust issues or interior damage, she looks pretty bad paint wise but I am fixing that soon, and has never been in an accident.

 

So to make a long story short, I am thinking of moving on but I can't get past the feeling I am making a big mistake and should just keep her til she or I, dies.

 

Any thoughts???? Thanks (PS I can't keep her if I get another car)

[Dee2]

Why not keep it if you get another ?  I've had mine since 91 and also have a truck.  I mainly keep the Subie as a backup vehicle.

[GeneralDisorder]

Parts are getting tough to get. It's probably at a point where it will not be economically viable to continue to repair it, etc. 

 

Get a legacy. 

 

GD

[Nonaof4]

I would love to keep it but it's a matter of space, only have parking for 1 vehicle.

[jsyme]

Such a wonderful car. They aren't worth anything in perfect condition as a trade.

 

I'd recommend asking a local Pastor if they know of a single mom who desperately needs it. Donate it to the church as a tax write off and look forward to seeing it at the grocery store, maybe a trail head with teenager bikes attacked or just generally around town as one of life's Easter eggs just for you.

[DaveT]

I have 2 EA82s, A GL and a Loyale.  I intend to run them indefinitely, but I have the space, parts, time, access to machinery...  If one needs work, I have the other, so no "get it fixed overnight" pressure. 

[GeneralDisorder]

I am of the experienced opinion that anyone who still clings to the EA82 has not experienced the joy of the EJ engine and of driving the Legacy platform. The Loyale engine leaves a LOT to be desired in performance, economy, reliability, and ease of maintenance. And it now has dwindling parts availibilty which is going to kill off the platform for all but a few collectors, etc. Engine oil pumps are now discontinued, obsolete, and unlikely to ever be produced again. That's pretty much going to end the platform except for those who install EA81's or EJ's in their place. 

 

From a Subaru mechanics perspective - just about all of us despise that engine and see it as a low point - a solution looking for a problem. Everything they did with that engine could have been done with the EA81 with higher reliability and simplicity. 

 

They corrected their mistakes with the EJ. The first generation Legacy was without a doubt one of the finest cars Subaru has ever produced.

 

GD

Edited July 3, 2017 by GeneralDisorder

[kmpdx]

If mine holds up besides the engine I totally hope to put a first gen EJ22 in it. Or like GD said just get an early Legacy.

Edited July 3, 2017 by kmpdx

[MR_Loyale]

Nona I know how you feel. I drove mine off the lot in 94. It still has the original engine having a head gasket job in 2014. 

 

I have grown attached to my Loyale. It has always started and gotten me where I needed to go and hasn't hurt my wallet but I have kept up with the maintenace too. The EA82 is an easy engine to work on. 

 

If you hire folks to work on your Loyale, you should bid farewell and get another car. It will cost you and most mechanics won't understand how to work on it properly unless they specialize in Subaru. 

 

I do my own wrenching so I plan to keep mine. I have a spare Loyale and am acquiring backup parts. 

[jsyme]

So Nonaof4, let know us what you decide. There is some great data here.

[Subaru Scott]

I am of the experienced opinion that anyone who still clings to the EA82 has not experienced the joy of the EJ engine and of driving the Legacy platform. The Loyale engine leaves a LOT to be desired in performance, economy, reliability, and ease of maintenance. And it now has dwindling parts availibilty which is going to kill off the platform for all but a few collectors, etc. Engine oil pumps are now discontinued, obsolete, and unlikely to ever be produced again. That's pretty much going to end the platform except for those who install EA81's or EJ's in their place. 

 

From a Subaru mechanics perspective - just about all of us despise that engine and see it as a low point - a solution looking for a problem. Everything they did with that engine could have been done with the EA81 with higher reliability and simplicity. 

 

They corrected their mistakes with the EJ. The first generation Legacy was without a doubt one of the finest cars Subaru has ever produced.

 

GD

 

^Exactly.

 

I can remember being in love with the EA82, in the before time. I had swapped an EA82T into my 86 hatch and thought it was one of the greatest Subarus ever, as did all my Soobie colleges. 

 

Then, when I attended Subaru training update in late 88 for the new Legacy, and saw my first EJ, with it's 4-valve heads and 5 main bearings... the light shined down upon me. 

 

Once you go EJ, you never go back.  I heard Subaru fired the engineers that designed the EA82...

[MR_Loyale]

It is true, I have not experienced the exhileration of an EJ engine overheat and faulty head gaskets. Steam coming out of the engine bay in the middle of a vacation. Too much "superiority" for me to handle. Nor have I exerienced ring land failure. I will leave all that for the more sophisticated crowd.

Edited July 3, 2017 by MR_Loyale

[GeneralDisorder]

It is true, I have not experienced the exhileration of an EJ engine overheat and faulty head gaskets. Steam coming out of the engine bay in the middle of a vacation. Too much "superiority" for me to handle. Nor have I exerienced ring land failure. I will leave all that for the more sophisticated crowd.

 

EA82's blow HG's more often than any EJ. And frankly the "overheat" style HG failure is limited to the EJ25D and it CAN be fixed. The EA82 cannot. It has a severely flawed head design.

 

The ring land failure is the exclusive territory of the EJ255 and EJ257 turbocharged engines. It is also easily corrected with drop in forged components that require no machine work. 

 

It also makes no difference if you want to keep the EA82. Subaru is the judge, jury, and executioner. 

 

Myself, and all my guys will throw a pizza party on the day the last EA82 is shoveled into a landfill or melted into new alloy rims for the Chinese auto market. They are leaky piles of utter garbage. No one that has worked on both extensively will agree with you. Nor are any comments from people with zero experience with EJ's even helpful here. The EA82 is a DEAD PLATFORM. Subaru has very effectively seen to that. 

 

Why do you think you can still get oil pumps for EA81's and Justy's but not the EA82? Because the engineers at Subaru hate that engine. 

 

GD

[MR_Loyale]

Well you and the fellows will be waiting a long time because I will still be driving mine when you apply for Social Security.

 

EJ engines had such a problem with HG failure that Subaru had a WP-99 advisory. Was there ever one on the EA82? I would be interested to know.

 

Would you like to explain to my neighbor whose 2008 Outback had HG issues at under 100k how superior it is? She was mad as a hornet about that.

 

 

So what you are telling me is that the ringland challenged EJ engines come from the factory requiring replacement pistons. Nice. They may require no machine work but will require a boatload of labor hours unless you are working for free these days. Can you price that out for us at your shop rate?

 

24 years on and I am still enjoying no car payment. If I were to get a newer Subaru, it would be a F series engine.

 

You can hate on it all you want, it meets my needs. No amount of vitriol will change that. And if the day comes to move on, it won't be to an "on the way to being dead" platform.

Edited July 3, 2017 by MR_Loyale

[jsyme]

WOAH!      girls, girls girls... you're both pretty!

 

Mr_Loyale, our friend Genersl Disorder is a Master mechanic that works with at Corporate level with Engineering, after having been promoted through the ranks, performed work on thousands of engines and is looking at spreadsheets of  'big data'. His opinion is legitimate because I know I can not replace the oil pump in my car either. parts are drying up. I'm harvesting axels from junk yards to keep my car on the road, before I even have anything broken!  Since you (Mr_Loyale) have eyes into the engine trends, through GD's eyes, you should plan accordingly to keep your lovely car road-worthy. Example. I may love the Ford 'Model T' but if I can't get parts, then it become a monument, not transportation.  I need my car too and I also love not having a car payment. I have a whole spare car though. it's rusted out for $200.

 

...and GeneralDistord, our friend Mr_Loyale is a ,pardon the pun, Loyal consumer of Subaru... from Seattle no less.  <There are a LOT of them in this forum as well> From what I understand Colorado Springs sells more Subarus than any other dealership in the country.  I know many Subaru crazy loyal owners, of which is huge equity for Subaru as a corporation. Boulder, Colorado has a Subaru in every single freaking drive way, it's almost cult like. Did you see the engine rebuild MR_loye performed? it was like museum prep for that engine. Meticulous. There is an identity there, and maybe it's not healthy or maybe it doesn't matter, but Mr_Loyal is tired of the noise about EJ engines.

 

It's like arguing over your favorite 10mm wrench.  Snap-on, Mac, crafts. harbor freight etc..   What matters is the one you use. That makes it the best 10MM wretch. Talk theory all you want, but what did you pick up and use?   The Loyale? the STI? the Model T?  Use it and love it, and let's not poo poo on anyone else's craftsman tools eh?

[Nonaof4]

Nona I know how you feel. I drove mine off the lot in 94. It still has the original engine having a head gasket job in 2014. 

 

I have grown attached to my Loyale. It has always started and gotten me where I needed to go and hasn't hurt my wallet but I have kept up with the maintenace too. The EA82 is an easy engine to work on. 

 

If you hire folks to work on your Loyale, you should bid farewell and get another car. It will cost you and most mechanics won't understand how to work on it properly unless they specialize in Subaru. 

 

I do my own wrenching so I plan to keep mine. I have a spare Loyale and am acquiring backup parts. 

Thanks for your input, and that is the problem, I do not work on it and everything has to be done by a paid mechanic and it is getting very expensive. I have a good guy but unfortunately he is retiring due to severe health problems.

[Nonaof4]

Wow, you people rule.....but I have to admit I don't even know what some of this means :huh: i sure do appreciate all the input though, hope it keeps coming as I ask my mechanic a little more detail as to exactly what engine he just put in my subi.

[Subaru Scott]

"EJ engines had such a problem with HG failure that Subaru had a WP-99 advisory. Was there ever one on the EA82? I would be interested to know."

 

You betcha, and then some!!

 

3 different campaigns for CRACKING cylinder heads. Mostly on the turbo models, but many N/A heads cracked too. The castings were updated TWICE before they got it under control in 89. Our dealership literally hauled truckloads of EA82 cylinder heads to the scrapyard in the mid-late 80s. 

 

2 for the infamous "double-walled" exhaust system (that trick never works). A guy used to come around once a month in an old grain truck to be able to pack all those away. Luckily, those fell under the 5 year/50k mile emissions warranty. I warrantied complete exhaust systems for every car that came into my bay, because I KNEW they were ALL going to crack. 

 

And then there was one for the ultra-thin finned radiators that would simply vaporize in the salt-belt.  

 

Those are the ones that immediately come to mind... there were more.

 

I guess I should be thankful, in a way. To quote a character from SNL:  EA82 "been bery, bery, good to me!" I raised 3 kids with EA82 money. It was mostly those timing belts. So, so, so, many timing belts. I'm sure I could still change a pair in my sleep. The main populous had no clue they needed to replace their belts at 60k, MUCH LESS adjust them at 15k!! Never before, and never since, have so many towtrucks showed up at the Subaru DEALERSHIP! That, is a fact. It was disgraceful. Many, many loyal Subaru owners walked away, after being stranded in a new car with 30k miles on it. 

 

Sure, there have been other periods of "issues" (headgaskets, cough, cough) which I really don't have dealership-level insight of, like I did back then. But I just don't see how those could hold a candle to all the problems the early EA82s had. 

 

As GD said, the first gen Legacies were, quite possibly, the finest Subarus ever. And I really feel sorry for anyone who has never experienced one... you really don't know what you're missing. Green eggs and ham comes to mind... 

But don't take my word for it, here"s proof:

 

https://www.torquenews.com/1084/why-2015-subaru-legacy-longest-lasting-sedan-road

 

If you have never read about this, you need to. I still have no Idea why Subaru didn't do a better job of publicizing this. Yes, the FIRST YEAR MODEL Legacy took the 100k kilometer land speed endurance record away from Saab, and it stood until 2005, when Mercedes benz finally beat it. This was 18.5 DAYS of WOT on a track in the Arizona desert, stopping only for gas, (they fitted 37 gallon tanks) driver changes, and regular maintenance... there were NO breakdowns. This wasn't just a lucky fluke because they ran 3 cars at the same time, and they ALL broke the records! 

 

My personal first gen EJ22, has 500k HARD miles on it, with dino oil. It's in it's 3rd body now. My daily work/tow vehicle for 17 years. I had one injector go bad at 300k, and another just recently. Valve cover gaskets at 350k is the deepest I've been into it. Aside from the oil fill tube o-ring, ALL other gaskets and seals are original! It still has 180 psi compression in all 4 cylinders. If you can show me another engine that can do that, I'll get off my soapbox. 

If you still prefer to keep your head in the sand, good luck. Keep plugging along in your Loyale. Just keep it out of the passing lane, bub. 

[DaveT]

Loyales do what I need.  I've consider the more power thing.  If I had it, I'd use it.  Don't need it, just more risk of getting tickets.  I'm not usually in the passing lane unless the car in front of me is going under the speed limit, max around here is 65.

 

I've maintained my wife's 2001 Forester, and now her 09.  We skipped the legacy, just due to timing / cost when a new car was wanted.  10K is about the limit on what I'll spend on a car, and it had to be good for a decade or more minimum, if it's anywhere near that price.

 

I can replace my Loyale timing parts for about 1/5th of the $ it takes to do the 01 Forester.  So I have to do it twice as often.  Oh well.

I prefer the smaller size and turning radius of the Loyales over both the newer Foresters.

 

I haul stuff moderately often, and have found that I could not fit certain things into a couple different bigger Foresters, a Tribecca - that do fit into my Loyale.  Crazy, bigger cars, and the opening is smaller.

 

I prefer part time 4WD over all wheel drive.  I saved loads of $ using up mismatched pairs of tires.  Can't do that with AWD.

Smaller 13" tires are still cheaper.  Yeah, not many choices anymore.  I don't care, What I've been getting work. 

 

I prefer the way my Loyales handle driving in snow over the newer ones also.  Maybe partly just my familiarity from driving them so long, but whatever.

 

I have no interest in cars newer than 25yrs old, now that I've made it there.  No more emission hassles.  Lower taxes, Lower insurance.

 

Yes, if you don't have a stash of parts, place to work, and tools and only one car, and have to pay people to do your repairs, 25+ year old cars like Loyales might not be the best choice..

[GeneralDisorder]

I still love and drive exclusively old cars for personal use.

 

1991 legacy SS Turbo 5MT

1986 GL Hatch (10" lift)

1986 Pontiac Trans Am (daily)

1969 GMC K2500

1956 Buick Roadmaster

 

I just checked - still no love for the EA82.

 

It doesn't really have anything to do with needing to own something newer. It's practicality - being able to get parts for them. EA stuff no longer makes an excellent daily because you can't get parts easily. Even my Legacy is tough being a turbo model. Many parts have had to be custom made. The Trans Am on the other hand - no problem at all. Same with the 69 truck. Practicality - the vehicles I need on a regular basis have to have support. Doesn't hurt if they are fun to drive too.

 

GD

[BEECHBM69]

 

Yes, if you don't have a stash of parts, place to work, and tools and only one car, and have to pay people to do your repairs, 25+ year old cars like Loyales might not be the best choice..

 

This sums it up quite nicely. I agree with everything else he said, but this part is germane to the OP. 

 

Dan

 

 

[Gloyale]

Parts are getting tough to get. It's probably at a point where it will not be economically viable to continue to repair it, etc. 

 

Get a legacy. 

 

GD

 

Or a 98 Forrester with a 90-96 2.2 dropped in.  (my personal daily and I love it)

 

The first gen Legacies where great, but the automatic seatbelts suck and break, and the door locks activate themselves ever time you open or close the doors (counterbalancing springs fail, bad design)  

 

They are getting to be problematic.

 

And second Gen Legacies just feel cheaply made to me.

 

Although anything with a decent 2.2 in it can make reliable transportation.  The 2.2 is a gem of an engine.

 

 

This sums it up quite nicely. I agree with everything else he said, but this part is germane to the OP. 

 

Dan

[djellum]

to the OP, I wouldn't get rid of it.  things of that nature are really not replaceable.  id agree that the platform is fading, but theres still enough parts to keep it going for a long time.  I would think that eventually a motor swap would be needed at the minimum, but that doesnt mean that the ea wont last until you have more room or time?

 

most basic stuff is still available for them, theres only a few parts that are really achilles for them.  I would buy up a couple of the problematic parts so you have them on hand so if and when they go bad your not stuck.  plan for a motor swap, but until then you can still fix yours even if a mechanic cant find the parts you need.

 

rather than just run through the EJ debate again, how about chiming in with a list of the small key ingredients that would help keep it rolling.  not everything needed just the stuff to closet in case you cant source it out or the kit doesnt come with one.

 

My list

OIl Pump (can still find them, I have a new one I got less than a year ago, plus used known good ones count)

the little O ring washer between the cam tower and head

couple sets of factory intake gaskets

a decent disty

couple outer hubs with good splines

 

Mines carb so I cant speak to sensors that he would need, but im sure theres a couple sensors to just have around if they are hard to get.  while they are still around you could even pull them from a running HG car and box em up.  any specifics?  Also some window motors if yours are power, maybe AC lines or something. I dont know your options

[DaveT]

Coolant temperature sensor. An old one is likely to be as bad as any other old one.....

[GeneralDisorder]

Axles....

 

GD