Gloyale Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 So, I'm working on a '04 WRX that was in a 'not shop' for a head gasket job and timing belt just to get the car back on the road... And the guy working on it was a clueless monkey who claimed to have a clue but, had less than an incling of a clue... He gave up on it partially dissasembled but engine still in car What we learn today is that you don't pull the timing covers and timing belt before pulling the engine, especially if you plan to roll the engine over... Now essentially the best way out is a new or used long block. Since it was so tired anyway ( EJ207 was the eventual swap ) So yeah, Subaru's are also susceptible of incapable mechanics There is no reason you can't pul the timing covers and the belt before pulling the engine. If you set the Cams to unloaded you can roll the crank over all day long with the belts off. Just make sure not to go backwards or you can damage the oil pump. I know a very competent local mechanic who chooses to do the headgaskets for subarus with the engine still in car. He uses a lift and does most work from underneath. Engine unbolted and shifted up off the crossmember. For reassembly, a short bungee cord stretched around the bolt heads will hold them halfway out of the head while they are slipped into place between the block and framerail. He warranties his work but has never had to redo one. JUst comfortable with a different way. Still perfectly acceptable method. Not my preference, I pull the engine. I don't understand why you would need a new longblock? Worst case from what you described is vavle damage from not setting the cams to a proper position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 What is the consensus on that? Do any of you run without timing cover? And what are you thoughts about not running with timing covers.... that's about like asking "pepsi or coke", "democrat or republican", "what type of oil is best" makes sense to keep the covers on an inteference engine. if you're going to be trouncing around trails, debris, off road, deep mud and snow that could get compacted up around the timing belt area, then don't do it. but subaru's tend to see offroad, snow, mud, gravel more than the average car. it can also cause the non-riding surfaces of the pulleys/sprockets to rust, which is benign but some people wouldn't like it and may only happen in rust-belt states like where I live. if the car will see light use then then it's possible. I've done it and wouldn't think twice if it's a car I'm not going to go nuts with, even an interference engine. i've done it before, my newer Subaru's now all have timing chains so it's not an option. i've driven 100's of thousands of miles without timing covers. you could choose shorter timing belt maintenace or checks in between changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freekraz Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Hey you guys, Enough with the idle chatter and misinformed musings. There are some REALLY EXCELLENT articles pinned to the top of this thread. You should read through them, study the diagrams, then post some more specific questions. Here's a link to the posting that has links to many articles on replacing the timing belt: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/97139-99-legacy-outback-25-jumped-timing-still-need-advice/?do=findComment&comment=817639 Sorry to sound harsh but the definitive information you are looking for is right at the top of this thread... Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt167 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 There is no reason you can't pul the timing covers and the belt before pulling the engine. If you set the Cams to unloaded you can roll the crank over all day long with the belts off. Just make sure not to go backwards or you can damage the oil pump. I know a very competent local mechanic who chooses to do the headgaskets for subarus with the engine still in car. He uses a lift and does most work from underneath. Engine unbolted and shifted up off the crossmember. For reassembly, a short bungee cord stretched around the bolt heads will hold them halfway out of the head while they are slipped into place between the block and framerail. He warranties his work but has never had to redo one. JUst comfortable with a different way. Still perfectly acceptable method. Not my preference, I pull the engine. I don't understand why you would need a new longblock? Worst case from what you described is vavle damage from not setting the cams to a proper position. The guy was stuck trying to pull the clutch off the flywheel from the backside of the access hole ( the one for automatics ). Evidently thought he needed a special tool to pull those bolts off... Does that tell you anything? He was going to pull engine. I'm not sure why he was doing what he was doing and I don't think even he knew.. I've pulled and replaced many Subaru engines and I would never think of pulling the timing set off prior. There is no reason The engine prior was tired, used a TON of oil, likely cracked ring lands. Add in possible valve damage and who knows what, and the cheapest option out is a new used engine, which i have.. We were only going to try to limp the old EJ205 along anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted July 31, 2017 Author Share Posted July 31, 2017 thanks! Here is another question.... I do believe the motor was replaced. For several reasons.... #1. On the inside of the hood the OEM Sticker says 2.5L class with California Emissions......(I believe it was sold by dealer with a 2.5L) #2. There also is on the intake manifold painted in yellow paint, a nice long inventory Junkyard number.... ( could just apply to only the intake manifold.... but, I personally doubt it....) So how can I determine the year of this motor ?????.... It is an EJ22 for sure... stamped in/on block front left top... It is Single overHead Cam(So that is 8 valves only)...... The timing belt tensioner was a one piece tensioner/pulley design...not a two piece.... I don't know if all blocks (EJ22's) can take either tensioner(I kinda doubt it)... What are determining key features to determine year of an EJ22 motor...:::::::??????????????? Thanks, Micky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt167 Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 Single port 1996 and after. Pistons different 1997-1998. I don't think there are any other identifiers. 1997-8 are interference. Oh wait. 1996 is hla lifter, 1997-8 are solid. You can change tensioner type with the bracket. Either fits an ej22e Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted July 31, 2017 Author Share Posted July 31, 2017 True, If you are off roading the subie... makes sense to have covers on.... True, If it is an interference motor...... to have the covers on....... and it is kinda nice having the covers off..... to see the belt all the time and to possibly change at shorter intervals..... Yeah, I don't off road at all........ Yeah, I do see some snow... and Yeah, being in one of those rust states... as I am.... could want me to use covers...... (so, I will certainly consider this info...........) Probably will for the timing being..... if All goes well. Slap a belt on ..... and drive her home(4 hours)..... Geeze that would be nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted July 31, 2017 Share Posted July 31, 2017 Pics of the motor. Top and bottom (intake and exhaust). One peice tensioner pretty much means it's a 97 or 98. Both are the same. Both are interference. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted August 2, 2017 Author Share Posted August 2, 2017 So the thing I got going for me is that.... It is SOHC...... 8 valves versus 16 valves. it is most likely either then a 97 - 08 , which is interference. What is the basic rule for measuring lash on these valves.???? I will go ahead and get a new belt on it(hopefully this weekend) I will then start checking the lash..... Am I checking lash when valve is at bottom of cam lobes.... I am asking because it is much easier to get it from someone who has done it already, rather than look at my new Hayes book( The book I really don't like how it is laid out.) Can anyone recommend a decent repair manual for SUBIES....?? Thanks, MIcky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted August 2, 2017 Author Share Posted August 2, 2017 Little Typo there 97 - 08 should be 97 - 98.... sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 2, 2017 Share Posted August 2, 2017 (edited) You don't need a belt to check lash. Set the crank on time and you can rotate the cams at will. It is not an 8 valve engine. All EJ engines, regardless of number of cams, are 16 valve. Lash should be .008" on the intake, and .010" on the exhaust. Ish. If you lost the belt on a 97/98, you may as well order 8 new intake valves. It's possible to not bend them all but the last one I saw bent 6 or 7 out of 8. Don't ask me how just one escaped damage. Slightly different valve spring return rate I suppose. All Subaru manuals are digital. Check SL-I.NET.... there are other sources. Haynes is worse than useless. Will only confuse and misinform. Burn it. GD Edited August 2, 2017 by GeneralDisorder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted August 3, 2017 Author Share Posted August 3, 2017 Here Here! Burn Burn Burn.... Yes, certainly a poorly written manual..... I have seen comic books that are easier to read..... 16 valves regardless of cams........ Ok,,,,,,,So I can figure I bent some up.... I haven''t ever had to do valves in the past..... Still running my last Loyale...... Had five of them.. still have three, two are parts vehicles now...... One last runner running pretty strong at 280K So, If you could help me through the process here...(dealing with bent valves) Where should I get (purchase) these intake valves and parts? AND what else do I need? I can get the heads off etc. etc... What is needed to remove the valves and install new valves. tools spring compressor etc etc. ?? And Do you know how much bigger an EJ22 Head is as compared to an EA82? Just curious..... because an EA82 Head fit pretty nicely on a piece of 220 grit wet/dry sandpaper which I would glue to thick glass and spray with wd40 and clean/resurface the head..... As for checking the lash.... Yeah, I will save myself the trouble of putting on the new belt.... if there is a link to checking lash on forum that someone knows about, can you send it my way. OR give me an idea of the process for checking lash for the valves(how is it done).. Thanks, Micky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 220 is too fine. This is what we use (150 grit): https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000BPNMZ4/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1501738854&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=ali+industries+4245&dpPl=1&dpID=51fKNDNMWqL&ref=plSrch You will find that it breaks down to a finer grit as it's used. One sheet of this cloth backed abrasive will do about 4 typical heads. It cuts fast, leaves an excellent finish, and is tough as nails. There is no other product like it (believe me I've tried them all). Here's a deal on valves: https://www.ebay.com/p/engine-intake-valve-sohc-natural-16-valves-dnj-iv708/76465350?iid=291549252572&_mwBanner=1&trdt=0&rdtsrc=vi Lash is simple - just set it with a feeler gauge. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted August 3, 2017 Author Share Posted August 3, 2017 Thanks, GD Grit is on it's way. Valves nice price. Thanks. What about new seals and do I reuse the valve keepers? I need to know about, how to tear down/ Install new valves (R&R) even links to tools needed (IE: I don't own a valve spring compressor - so that is needed... etc etc. etc.) Have not done this before.... but, If I just get the instructions... I am very capable..... As for gaskets,,,,,,,,,,,,, What do you's think about Ishino/Stone gaskets????? Maybe, at the very least I get the head gaskets for Subaru or is this not necessary.... Thanks, Micky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 listen to GD or Gloyale on this one. but i generally replace valve stem seals, and i'm admittedly uncertain on whether seals or guides are a concern during bent valves incidents. Subaru or Fel Pro are great fits for an EJ22, but let them chime in on other brands as I haven't had to pay attention for years since EJ22's have all rusted away around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted August 7, 2017 Author Share Posted August 7, 2017 Ido, In the East, are you////??.... Yes, I am very familiar with the conditions there, as myself too having to deal with this as well (in the East), and the new methods of inclement weather safety they use here,,,, in the east... That stuff they spray out of the trucks and sticks to the roads like glue.... and then glues to the vehicles. nasty stuff ,, it is..... This coming weekend I will be able to go and assess the damage due to the timing belt breaking. I have to drive four hours to go and work on the car. Kinda difficult I will have to bring all my tools up there and have everything that I will need GD, thank again for the links to the grit and the valves. I had asked about gaskets..... No one chimed in.... I will ask again............ ISHINO/Stone is an OEM replacement Have you guys heard of it???? (what are your thoughts) recommendations???? I could probably get a set a valve seals..... in this particular kit............. AND Do you know of any good links/(videos) of valve replacement for 97/98 EJ22's? AND links to a recommended Spring compressor and necessary tools to pop out the valves???? Thanks, MIcky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdventureSubaru Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 Felpro head gaskets are the only way to go for these Ej22s. They have the fuji stamp and cost $25. each as opposed to nearly $100 each for the same exact part from Subaru. I have not been very choosy on intake manifold and exhaust manifold gaskets for these motors since they are a snap to replace if ever needed. Do check your the back of your motor for the oil leak from the seperator plate and replace with the factory upgrade if so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 (edited) valve spring compressors are a good thing to be prepared for. i made my own tool. run all thread through a socket and then cut a notch in the side of the socket to pull the keepers/retainers, then run the other side of the all thread through a cam sprocket or crank pulley as a "handle". lean/push on it , remove keepers and out comes the spring. probably not a method that's good for everyone, i've done entire engines with it, but I won't be compressing them by hand when i'm older. and why do i do that? because i don't do enough to warrant an expensive tool and i don't know of any lower end ones that work great. but i've done all EJ25's and older gen stuff, not much EJ22 valve spring stuff, maybe EJ22's are easier? the two valve spring compressors i own/use aren't very good for Subaru's, i can cobble them together and frustratingly maybe sort of make them work on most valves, but on some with little side clearance with the head casting they dont' really work at all or you'd spend about an hour on each valve getting dialed in just right. in general the ones you see when you walk in a store suck for Subarus. a thread started about which ones to use with little concrete or widely available tools referenced: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/124419-what-valve-spring-compressor-do-you-use/ Edited August 7, 2017 by idosubaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted August 17, 2017 Author Share Posted August 17, 2017 Ido:::::::: thanks for the idea on how you get the valves compressed... I am figuring that I will do what you talk about as well... Do you know off hand what size socket it was that you cut out? And how much exposure(clearance) is needed to access the valve keepers MEANING::::: how much of the socket did you need to chop out.... GD::::::::: thanks again for the lash check method....... what a great idea....... rather than spend time putting something together(install a belt) (or compressions) Just check for lash...... quick.... nice... got to ripping it down sooner..... Why whish for straight valves..... rare chance in Hell ' o........... Yeah, so one of the valves the lash was pretty high ..... 0.025 in.... another was 0.015 in......... others were less and like three weres .008..... but, ALL of them collided with pistons..... A question........... Exhaust valves don't interfere?????????? Only Intake valves????????? Attached are some pics of the pistons..... All the intake valves collided............. I think five.... are greater that .008.......... I bought eight new valves....... Do you think I should just go ahead and change out all eight.......... Like how much time does it take to change one out......????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 17, 2017 Share Posted August 17, 2017 In our experience, exhaust valves to not interfere with the pistons due to their smaller size. They *can* interfere with the intake valves but usually do not. Inspect them - I usually just lap them all and if any are pitted badly or manifestly bent when performing the lapping then replace them. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 My valves came yesterday from Bigred's..... I will be digging in sometime soon on the heads and intake valves Is there a decent HOW TO for replacing the valves on the forum or a video? I can have a go at it ::::(I understand the idea of compressing the springs and removing the valve keepers) but, it would be better to see something or even read something..... As I have not needed (never had to compress springs and take valve out before) to deal with collisions in interference motors.( been running EA82's still [but getting near the end]) Thanks, Micky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 To be more clear....... What is the recipe for replacing the valves..... Things I need to do ( IE: how should I lap the valves) using any lubricants on anything?.......... should I soak anything in oil overnight? ETC. ETC. ETC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Just get a valve lapping handle with the various sized suction cups and some permatex lapping compound. Should be at any auto parts store. Use assembly lube on the valve stem. I use one of these for valve removal/installation: http://www.toyotool.com/ GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickytrus Posted August 19, 2017 Author Share Posted August 19, 2017 Thanks!.. Yeah, Picked up a hand lapping tool yesterday. I'll get some assembly lube later today.......... I have so many questions..... I will try to refrain.... Some..(try and keep them in order... and be coherent) I watched the toyotool....... 1.8l installing the keepers.... Compressing the valves.... One question I have.......... How does the guy (who is compressing the valve springs) keep the valves from dropping while he is compressing the spring???? I have some ideas of how I might hold the valves up...... but, I think it is better to see what other's are doing(would do) . Those that have been doing these sort of repairs..... I would like to do fix these bent valves properly So I don't have any surprises.......... ALSO.... I don't want to do a complete disassembly of the heads....... Due, to these circumstances, The car is a downer vehicle currently four hours from my home sitting in some nice people's yard who have been nice enough for me to rip the motor down there. ..... as well as, that I am new at this...... I just want to replace the intake valves............. And do the intake seats.... What are your thoughts regarding this approach....(of not doing a complete disassembly of the heads..&& just doing the intake valves)..... Thanks, MIcky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaru Scott Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 Stuff a cloth rag in the combustion chamber to keep the valves from moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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