Timing belt pulleys, tensioners, etc.

[89XT6]

While waiting for the HLAs to arrive, I'm trying to wrap my brain around why only the passenger side HLAs are complaining 

 

I have a few common sense (rookie)  questions...

 

- If the clacking  HLAs are on the passenger side only and the driver side is perfectly quiet, can I assume that the oil pump is fine?  We primed the pump before startup and tested oil pressure externally, getting normal readings at various temps.

 

- Is it possible that during the reseal, with the engine on it's passenger side while changing the head gasket and such, the oil found its way out of the HLAs and they are not priming because they are tired and spongy?

 

-The mickey mouse gasket was a bit tricky for the pros to install.  Do each of the ports that the "ears" seal feed oil to separate sides, driver and passenger?  If so, this may point to  more air getting to the passenger side HLAs, which may very well be the issue since they all feel spongy and don't seem to want to prime themselves.  Air in the system is all that makes sense to me right now.

 

I plan on the usual recommended tasks, placing the HLAs in a bag filled with thin oil for a day, priming them by hand and idling between 1,500 and 2,000 rpm for as long as it takes to drink a Red Bull and say some prayers... 20 minutes or more.

 

This 2.7 was very quiet before the reseal, once in a blue moon an HLA would clack for 2 seconds, then disappear into the usual sewing machine banter.  

 

If the clacking is still there after installing 6 new HLAs, 20-60 minutes of idling and/or a good long drive at 55 mph, I will most likely just take Slater home and see if daily driving with an occasional heavy foot can clear this up.  

 

-Would my next step be to check the new minkey mouse gasket?  

Edited September 16, 2017 by 89XT6

[Gloyale]

-The mickey mouse gasket was a bit tricky for the pros to install.  Do each of the ports that the "ears" seal feed oil to separate sides, driver and passenger? 

 

 

No.

 

One is the output from pump to oil filter, the other is the return from oil filter and all goes out from there.

 

And Passenger side get's it first.

 

My guess is the O-ring that seals the passenger side Cam case to the head, or the headgasket itself at the oil passage.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Gloyale

[idosubaru]

Why: "Made in China"

[89XT6]

I used a Subaru OEM O-ring in the cam case and Nippon Reinz head gaskets, Japanese manufacturing.  But that doesn't mean much if the mechanic either forgot to use the O-ring or didn't get the gasket on perfectly.

 

I'll stop at the shop today and give them fair warning, my wallet is getting thin and I won't pay for their mistakes.

[89XT6]

Which one of the 3 different cam case O rings feeds the HLAs?

 

The big oval one, 13090AA000

The small one with the metal clip, 13089AA000

or the small one with no clip, 13089AA010

 

I have an extra big oval one, but would have to order the smaller ones

 

Thanks in advance

Edited September 16, 2017 by 89XT6

[DaveT]

The o rings between the heads and the cam towers are metal enforced.  I have gotten them from a dealer.  They may also be available from industrial supply houses, but you have to know the sizes and all that.  Don't use plain orings.

[idosubaru]

Feed the HLAs? Why would you only replace one of them? They should all be replaced because compromising fluid dynamics at one location can effect another. low water pressure at a sink doesn't mean only the sink is to blame, it can be caused by another line being used, or compromised.

 

There are three clip on orings - one for each representative cylinder on the cam. I don't think they do but if these also supplied HLAs then they would be cylinder specific - one cylinders HLAs would get the large metal oval oring. The other two cylinders would each get a smaller metal Oring with the clip on arms.

 

ive never had reason to ascertain oil flow direction but don't the HLAs receive direct lubrication through the heads and not the cam case galleries? I assumed those cam case oil supply galleries are for the cam and rocker arm bearing surfaces and disty gear set.

[idosubaru]

How positive are you this diagnosis is correct?

 

Most stories that go as yours is - end up being misdiagnosis. most mechanics aren't familiar with these engines and finding a mechanic who knows EA/ER failure modes and symptoms very well is almost unheard of.

[89XT6]

I agree, most mechanics are not willing to even touch this 2.7, so we should give some credit to anyone willing to tackle this.   My mechanic worked for a Subaru dealer and is getting advise from the lead mechanic at the dealership (25+ years experienced old timer).

 

Of course we will change all of the o rings,  I'm just curious as to why these things are supposedly to blame for HLA TOD.   With your different opinions, all I can think is that they block an oil passage, causing a drop in oil pressure if old or not aligned perfectly.  I have an extra large oval o ring with the clip and can get more small rounds with clips.  There are also small rounds without a clip.  They are all metal reinforced, and all available Subaru NOS.   Again, the Subaru diagrams are not so good, showing only one of each on the cam case, causing major confusion until you open up a cam case and find more.  Scouring the web hasn't led to a definite 100% clear and complete reseal guide (every gasket, o ring seal etc. and how many of each are needed), just some really good info, opinions and suggestions from  idosubaru and other experienced members.  This is why most of us don't get everything right the first time!  

 

As far as diagnosis, with intermittent TOD on only the passenger side, it's safe to say the problem is a blocked oil passage somewhere on that side, causing low oil pressure at the HLAs.  It could be a misaligned head gasket (according to the mechanic),  more o rings needed (thanks again to vague Subaru website diagrams), a piece of old RTV hiding in a passage. idk, anything else?

At first we tried changing the one really bad HLA, but I had a feeling it was something else already, just went with their advise.  I then ordered 5 more to complete the whole set.  New HLAs are not the answer, they're a symptom, but they will eliminate any doubt.  If the new ones clack for longer than expected before they prime, we dig into the cam case. The oil pump is fine, new seal, mm gasket, good pressure readings and the driver side HLAs are quiet. 

 

We'll get it right, I promise!  We'll replace every HLA, cam case o ring, the head gasket, check and clean all passages, pressure springs, etc.  I'm confident, patient and full of OCD, so  I will not settle for anything less than a quiet 2.7, since that is what I had before the reseal.  It's not rocket science, just a rare project with some trial and error due to a lack of 100% complete direction.

 

You guys are great, I appreciate your patience and everything you help me with.  I'm sure you want this project done successfully, as do I,  and some of you probably want to push me out of the way and fix it yourself, or swap in an EJ.  

 

So, grab some popcorn 

 

Continue to answer and remain patient with my obvious rookie dead horse posts 

 

Soon we will win, it's just a mechanical unicorn.  Humans always win in the end.

Edited September 17, 2017 by 89XT6

[idosubaru]

If I could see the oring I could tell you where they go. Post a pic? I actually have them all in my garage and could post a picture later Sunday or Monday of them and maybe even mounted to a carrier.

 

Here's the simple way to tell:

The three orings across the middle of the carrier at each set of cam lobes (2 circle and 1 oval) are not black. The one in the very bottom corner of the carrier is black and flat (no fingers or tabs).

 

Another way to describe it:

There are three orings across the middle of the carrier roughly located at each set of cam lobes that all look the same and have small metal fingers holding them in place. Two are the same part and circular and one is larger and oval.

 

The fourth oring (3rd different part number) is at the very bottom corner. It's black and internally it's metal reinforced, you can't see the metal as it's covered but it's clearly stiff and internal.

I've seen RTV stuck right around this oring but it happens so rarely I havent seen enough so that's just an anecdotal report, I wouldn't know if that is a statistically likely occurrence.

 

If the oil pump was worked on maybe ask if he remembers retaining the rotor orientation when reinstalling. I don't know if that could cause this but it would be an easy way to *not have thing exactly like they were before the job* - when it made no noises. The rotor is symmetrical, installs either way, and visually has no mediately identifiable marks for "front" or "back" unless you're paying close attention for it. Maybe incentive it's warn in for 30 years and XYZ,000 miles the orientation needs retained.

 

when he removes the cam case to replace those orings the oil pump will be nearly zero work to address - just 5 10mm bolts and 3 minutes to pull it. Normally it's a sizable time consuming job.

 

If you've read my TOD thread you'll see this already but I've seen uncooperative TOD resolved by replacing the oil pump entirely. Even after multiple reseals, perfectly find oil pressure, and zero visible issues with the oil pump. Not sure why but I've seen it often enough to know it's not anecdotal. I realize yours didn't make noise

before so presumably it shouldn't be the pump and they're not really available new either so makes sense not to focus here now.

[89XT6]

 

[89XT6]

I can't get to the car for pictures today, but I pasted pictures from a Subaru parts website, in the post above^^^.  I originally ordered 2 of each type, because that is what I see on the camshaft and timing belt diagram:

 

The big oval one, 13090AA000

The small one with the metal clip, 13089AA000

The small one with no clip, 13089AA010

 

I remember seeing the old ones from one of the cam cases, all gunked up with red or orange RTV.  We changed all 4 of those.  The other side looked good, no RTV at all, so we just changed the oval one,  the round flat one with no clip and cleaned the two round clipped ones, because at the time we only had one of each for each cam case.  This 2.7 was already resealed once and the two used o rings on this one side looked good enough to just clean and put back.

 

The owner of the shop is also suspicious of the new head gasket blocking an oil passage, causing intermittent low oil pressure to the HLAs.  I'll allow him to run with his theory, he's a pro.  He ordered a new one and will most likely just install it, since the head probably has to come off anyway.  

 

I can order 2  more 13089AA000  tomorrow and bring them along with the new Mellings HLAs later this week.

 

I'll mention the oil pump to the shop.  The mechanic doing the work rebuilt many Subaru engines when he worked at a dealership, but I think he's way too young to have the experience needed for this old dog 2.7.  

Edited September 17, 2017 by 89XT6

[Gloyale]

I can't get to the car for pictures today, but I pasted pictures from a Subaru parts website, in the post above^^^.  I originally ordered 2 of each type, because that is what I see on the camshaft and timing belt diagram:

 

The big oval one, 13090AA000

The small one with the metal clip, 13089AA000

The small one with no clip, 13089AA010

 

I remember seeing the old ones from one of the cam cases, all gunked up with red or orange RTV.  We changed all 4 of those.  The other side looked good, no RTV at all, so we just changed the oval one,  the round flat one with no clip and cleaned the two round clipped ones, because at the time we only had one of each for each cam case.  This 2.7 was already resealed once and the two used o rings on this one side looked good enough to just clean and put back.

 

The owner of the shop is also suspicious of the new head gasket blocking an oil passage, causing intermittent low oil pressure to the HLAs.  I'll allow him to run with his theory, he's a pro.  He ordered a new one and will most likely just install it, since the head probably has to come off anyway.  

 

I can order 2  more 13089AA000  tomorrow and bring them along with the new Mellings HLAs later this week.

 

I'll mention the oil pump to the shop.  The mechanic doing the work rebuilt many Subaru engines when he worked at a dealership, but I think he's way too young to have the experience needed for this old dog 2.7.  

 

 

there is only one oil passage in the headgasket per side.  If those were blocked, there would be no oil at all to one side.  You can't really put it on wrong as it slips over teh dowels.  Doubtful the problem is at the HG.

 

The HLA's get their oil from the cam case passages. It goes into the case through the first one, then back down to the HLA gallery throuhg the second, back up into the cam case through the third to the relief valve passage.  So they need to be sealed well definatley the first 2 anyhow.  Replace those o-rings.

 

I wouldn't bother pulling the headgaskets, unless your mechanic F-ed something up and knows it.  I would guess if the engine runs strong, the HG's are fine and the trouble is in the Cam case O-rings.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Gloyale

[89XT6]

Ok, thanks GLoyale.

 

Looking at my receipts, I only ordered 2 13089AA000 o rings, but need 4.

 

I was thinking the same thing, how can you manage to put a head gasket on wrong?  There is one small round passage on the head gasket that has rubber around it... oil passage.

 

I'll have to keep a close eye on them to make sure we have all the new HLAs, and o rings on the cam case and they clean all of the oil passages with a pipe cleaner or something.  They used plenty of brake cleaner, scrapping and compressed air, but something could still be blocking somewhere.   I'm not too worried about much else, since this thing ran nice and quiet before the reseal.  There's just one simple little gremlin here.

 

I expect to have the parts late this week and the shop will be back at it next week.  I'll keep you guys posted.  

Edited September 17, 2017 by 89XT6

[idosubaru]

I think you figured it out but in your picture:

 

Top oring - 1 per head (2 per engine) - lower corner gasket.

 

Middle oring - 2 per head (4 per engine)

 

Bottom oval - 1 per head (2 per engine)

 

Like Gloyake said, these gaskets install exactly like every other Subaru headgasket, no way to get them wrong that I know of, sounds weird.

[89XT6]

 

 

Well, that was quick!  I ordered these Friday.  I guess in CA, they understand when a NY'er says "Please send asap".  

 

I ordered a set of o rings for the cam case, should have them by Wednesday, then I will spoon feed the mechanic and shop owner with what they need to do to get this right.

 

 

BTW... Made in USA!  

Edited September 18, 2017 by 89XT6

[89XT6]

 

New HLAs primed and installed.  Ran the thing  up and down around 2,000 rpm for more than an hour.  Still making noise.

 

We took the head off to look for something obvious.  The gasket seemed to be on correctly, but they had to order a new one at this point anyway.  I told them to order two, just in case.

 

I test drove my poor noisy Slater, ran fine, smooth and even as before the reseal.  I don't think there is an issue inside the heads or block.

 

Taking Mr. idosubaru's suggestion, I ordered a brand new Subaru OEM oil pump, part #15010AA087.  Yes, there are a few left , grab one if you plan on a reseal. The old pump could be... old.  We get good pressure readings with an external gauge, but a new pump can't hurt anything except my wallet ($225).

 

The master mechanic at the nearby Subaru dealer will offer his help.  He'll know right away what is making the noise, and point to other possible causes that we may be overlooking.  I guess we'll find out if it's something deeper, like a bad valve or other internal thing.  As I mentioned, the engine is smooth and has good pickup, no flat spots, just the noise that I refuse to accept.  

 

We're thinking it might be a good idea to have the head milled and it may also be time for some seafoam treatment, clean this beotch out.

 

Carry on!!! 

Edited September 24, 2017 by 89XT6

[89XT6]

 

 

NOS OEM oil pump on its way.  Still not 100% sure it's the actual one I need, until it's in my hands.  One way to know for sure is to match up the mickey mouse gasket, since the 1.8L is different.  We will see soon enough. From what I can tell, it's the 1.8L oil pump that is no longer available.  The mechanic will replace the o ring, gasket and the pickup!  Fingers crossed.  

 

This parts dealer can be found on eBay, as Northcoastsubaru, out of Glen Cove, NY.  They claim to be able to get many old and rare Subaru parts, from Japan if need be. 

[89XT6]

Success!  

 

The NOS Subaru oil pump did the trick.  The original pump still showed decent pressure, however, new is new and it definitely is the cure for TOD. 

We had the cam case and head apart and installed a new head gasket, cam case o rings and HLAs.  Not to mention, I lost count of how many cans of brake cleaner we used and following the service manual, word for word.  As expected, the HLAs ticked for a while at first, but I was fed up, so I got behind the wheel and took Slater for a drive, a spirited drive on the highway. Within minutes things got quiet, to the point where it should   The 2.7 sounds like it should, like a whispering old typewriter.  I should fill the gas tank with Sunoco 93 and drive it every day and I have to go over everything under the hood, there are most likely a few bolts missing here and there!  

 

Thanks to idosubaru and other long time members here, for sharing your knowledge.  This little coupe will be around for quite a while, making it one of very few left in original condition.  Next Spring I may have some touch ups done on the body.  Other than the easily replaced thin strip of metal under the rear bumper, there is no rust to speak of, I will park it at the first sign of salt on these Northeast roads.

 

To the moderators that may have followed this thread, it may be a good idea to pin this little adventure.

Edited October 17, 2017 by 89XT6

[idosubaru]

 

Taking Mr. idosubaru's suggestion, I ordered a brand new Subaru OEM oil pump, part #15010AA087. 

 

good job.   i wasn't making it up that i've got a 100% success rate by replacing the pump. 

 

i would keep your old pump just in case, it would also be interesting to mic a pump and figure out exactly where the issue is occurring. 

[Subaru Scott]

I went round,and round, and round on one of these many years ago trying to get the TOD to go away. 

 

In a last-ditch effort, I removed the timing belts, attached a clear hose to the pump output at the oil filter base, and chucked up a right angle drill to the oil pump shaft nut, just to SEE what kind of flow I was getting.

 

Guess what I saw in the clear hose? Air bubbles.

 

The pump flowed great and had plenty of pressure, but it sucked air around the front seal. New seal, problem over... 

 

That's how I fixed all of them from then on. Sorry, I didn't see your post before now, been swamped cleaning up from Irma!

[89XT6]

Yeah, I thought it may have been just a misaligned new seal at first, we did change both pump seals.  At that point I wanted to eliminate any doubt and put a new pump in.  

My TOD was only on the passenger side, pretty much ruling out air bubbles... who knows, who cares, as long as it's quiet.

After driving for a few days... no leaks!!!

Something needs to be sorted out though.  Slater feels sluggish,  hesitates from a stop and the automatic transmission will not downshift easily going uphill.  Although there are no leaks, I smell oil, maybe transmission fluid is low and it's running hot, or residual oils burning off from the reseal.  The tranny/power steering hoses that run to the transmission cooler were disconnected for a while, maybe enough fluid leaked out and I need to add?  Is that even a transmission cooler, or just a quirky Subaru electric PS cooler?  I can read the FSM and I have plenty of the special PS fluid.  The motor is fine, idles smoothly, when I downshift and gas it, it goes strong, but it seems as if the transmission is holding back. I'll fill the gas tank with Sunoco 93 and top off the fluids.  I guess it could also be a vacuum or linkage issue wth the transmission, which like all else, was fine before the reseal.  Before the reseal it was quick off the line, spinning the tires and shifting firmly into second.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Edited October 18, 2017 by 89XT6

[Subaru Scott]

Sounds like ignition timing may be retarded.

[idosubaru]

check that all the plug wires are properly seated - including in the coil and center disty wire.

 

i would also check for vacuum leaks if engine has been pulled.

 

maybe it's already been mentioned but:

clean IAC

check CTS connector

 

Yeah, I thought it may have been just a misaligned new seal at first, we did change both pump seals....pretty much ruling out air bubbles.?

 

i've seen quite a few do this.  new seals (multiple times) and it still does it.  swap pumps and it's gone.  got a few stories of people resisting changing the pump, multiple reseals and attention to detail...then they replace the pump and magically TOD goes away.

[89XT6]

I'll check everything you guys suggest, but here is a big clue for you...

 

When idling in park, it's at about 750 RPM, should be higher.  When I put it into any gear... no change, still around 750 RPM.  Timing retarded?

I changed the CTS connector with a quality aftermarket fuel injector pigtail and the IAC worked fine before, didn't clean it though.  A vacuum leak is also a possibility.

The mechanic didn't put the AC back correctly, the clutch doesn't turn on,  maybe he never recharged it.   Also, the AC cooling fan cycles along with the passenger side fan. 

They should be independent of each other.

So, we have a possible vacuum, timing or electrical issue I guess, Jeebus only knows what they may have messed up, but its not rocket science, I'll bring the car back to them next week.

It's like most contractor work, you have them in your house for months and towards the end of the project, your at each others throats and the final details get screwed up.

I'll post more as soon as we figure things out, probably won't drive the car too much, don't want to stress anything.