dream car ponderings and questions

[thook44]

hello folks....

 

first, let me apologize if this post goes into subjects beaten to death, already. however, i just found an ad for an '08 forester w/panoramic sunroof, blown motor, very clean, auto tranny, etc for $1800. i've been doing some reading here and there about my ponderings, but my curiosity is ahead of my education level

 

about the ad, i'm thinking great deal though a bit newer in style and features than i'd currently want. there are details about the slightly older models i appreciate. more simplicity and a distinct appearance the older ones have; color options, body style, blah, blah, blah

 

so, i'm thinking if i can run across an ad like this maybe i could one across one at some point that would be more to my preference. i would like a forester, but a late 90's or earlier 2k model. and, i would prefer a standard 5spd tranny. sunroof would be swell, but i could live without it

 

questions.....

 

say i do find an ad more to my liking, i've been reading about swapping in a 2.2L; the current motor in my legacy would work great and my skills are up to the task. could i also swap in my 5spd if what i find is an auto? it's low miles and i just put the thing in not too long ago.

 

also, do the 2.2L respond well to rebuilds? i don't want to mod it out heavily to ramp the power, though simple little tweaks like boring out and head/block decking i might could go with. i mean, right now the engine's running great, but doing a swap i may decide to go ahead and freshen it up. kinda depends on where the compression is, i guess

 

now, having said all that, let's say i find an ad similar to the one i just found at a point i can actually move on it and i've flexed on my current preference for the older styles, could i still swap in my 2.2L and 5spd?

 

the ad: https://littlerock.craigslist.org/cto/d/2008-subaru-forester-awd/6278881592.html

 

current vision/dream:  https://i.pinimg.com/originals/11/40/e7/1140e76a6e7b00d38994770b52c0a871.jpg

 

if you read this and decide to respond, please feel free to also share links/threads you're aware of that would help me in my suby quest.

 

much appreciation in advance!

[thook44]

okay....prime example:  https://fayar.craigslist.org/cto/d/2004-subaru-forrester-for/6247554757.html

 

$850!! again, not really the year (or color) i'd like, but if they came down a bit even from that, i could learn to like it.

Edited August 29, 2017 by thook44

[matt167]

You would need a JDM SOHC EJ20 or a USDM EJ253/251 or 252. Ej222 if you really wanted for the older Forester. Your engine will not work if it's a pre 1999 engine.. The 2008 uses active valve timing I think, so you need something even different than that.

[idosubaru]

2.2's don't swap into newer Subaru's.

 

you can't just look at "2.2" or "2.5" - there's a lot of variations over the years Phase I, Phase II, active valves, CANBUS.

look at the actual informational swap thread - they're all regarding 1990-1999 vehicles, older stuff. 

 

if you have a 1990's EJ22 - it doesn't work in anything 2000+. 

if you have a 1999-2001 (phase II) EJ22 then it can work in 99-04 Foresters.

[golucky66]

The EJ253 imo is quite a reliable engine, provided you take care of it.

 

Find one that needs HG. Then replace them with one of the"upgrades" that's all over this site. Then never have to do them again.

[heartless]

forget about swapping in a 2.2 - you would probably end up disappointed with it, not to mention the above logistics of what will work & what won't.

 

I have a 2002 Forester with the EJ251 & 4EAT - head gaskets had been done long before I got it, so that was a plus. I did have to do a full timing job however - it was slightly overdue.. but that is pretty easy in comparison. It currently has 231,450K on it and going strong.

 

Love the car, altho it is lacking a couple of things I would like to have - heated outside mirrors would be awesome, sunroof (of any size) would be nice, too. But neither of these are deal breakers for me.

 

Keep looking would be my advice. Decide what you absolutely have to have, what would be nice, and what you don't care about... Also decide how much work you are willing to put into one to get it to where it should be.

 

I got lucky with mine - basically ready to go for $1400. It had 219K when I got it - I have put 12k on it basically trouble free. Interior is very clean, exterior has a few minor blemishes, but for where I live, and the age of the car, it looks quite good.

 

[thook44]

thank you all so much for the replies.

 

i looked around for a swap thread. i guess it's not stickied or anything? i'll keep looking

 

one other thing i've not mention is my aversion to interference engines. my old 22re is one. when the timing chain broke, bent six valves. my fault, but that's one reason the 2.2L is appealing to me. perhaps the main reason

 

now, i have read enough to understand there are engine designations that distinguish one 2.2 from another. likewise with the 2.5. and, atleast with the sohc 2.5's i read about good results with the mls headgaskets. that was a solution for early 3vze's that were blowing back in the 90's. i did have to put another 3vz in my wife's '92 4rnr, but that was due to prior mechanic error. spun a main bearing. then, i had to rebuild the top end on the new motor....again due to prior mechanic error. scored cams and burned valve due to broken cam guide. i've not had any similar issues since, but i've also never had any head gasket issues even without the mls gaskets. it doesn't have a lot of power relative to it's displacement, but it's reliable and it's non interference. i like that just fine. (btw, the ej221 has nearly as much horsepower as my 3vze and pushing a much lighter vehicle. and, more hp than the 22re that has slightly more displacement, so...) i guess what i'm saying is if the 2.5 is interference AND needs "special" fussing to keep it healthy (more power or not) again i'd rather stick with 2.2L's....whatever designation it is. nevertheless, i will certainly read more up on it.

 

one more thing...about swapping logistics; the 3.4L/ 5vze is a popular swap out for the 3vze in the 90's model trucks and 4runners. it's a bit involved, but still quite doable. can't remember if the block is a bolt up and go, or if mounts need moving, but the rest....well, it's not plug and play. definitely have to swap out everything down to the ECU. there was a time when i seriously considered the swap for our '92, but after seeing prices drop over the years for used 3rd gen 4rnrs i blew it off. still, it was work i was willing to do for some extra towing power since that's mostly what we use the vehicle for. so, with a suby,  i'm not looking for plug and play necessarily, but i will weight that in.

 

for now, i will look into the differences between the ej221 and ej222....since the older forester style would still be my first choice

 

oh, and the tranny issue.....will this "swap thread" go into that, as well? i know..the 4eat is a great unit, but i still prefer standards. i briefly glanced at a 5spd low range option/modification or something. intrigue!

Edited August 29, 2017 by thook44

[thook44]

one more thing....and this is just out of curiosity....although i'd do it if it was doable, but it's not a big thing at all

 

i've seen the older suby's with the 4bolt hub drilled to six bolt configuration to fit yota wheels, for example. is anyone swapping these older hubs to newer models...ie, the forester? is even remotely doable? i was just thinking...man, if so, i've got my old 4rnr steelies nicely painted with flat black. they look like the ones on that white forester pic above.

 

 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/11/40/e7/1140e76a6e7b00d38994770b52c0a871.jpg

 

edit: lol...not 10 min after posting it occurred to me those older cars probably had drums atleast the rear. oh well....

Edited August 29, 2017 by thook44

[thook44]

ohhhh!!! the ej222 is interference....hmmm. because of dohc's? looks like i'd have to stick with a pre '96 ej22 to get non interference

 

okay....are ya'll saying my motor won't work....because it's not plug and play?

 

i read the ej short blocks are the same...which would mean my motor would bolt right into an ej forester mounts? (answered this for myself)

Edited August 29, 2017 by thook44

[Mike104]

The "08 will have variable valve timing so the JDM EJ20 won't work and the short blocks vary as well.  An appropriate bare Short block from Subaru is north of $1k plus everything else needed plus labor to replace it.  If you can do the work yourself may not be a deal breaker.  Paying a shop to R&R a bare short block will be an expensive task.

[thook44]

i see. but, are the mounts in the same location? i was told recently all ej mounts interchange.

 

currently, i'm reading up on all the differences. i still haven't gotten to what the heck variable valve timing means in relation to all this. i'm guessing, though, different heads, sensors, wiring, and ecu atleast

 

no matter....don't think i want to get into a variable valve timing thing. i'm guessing, also, that's where valve interference is with some of these motors? not piston to valve...just valve to valve

Edited August 30, 2017 by thook44

[matt167]

Ej22 after 1997 are all interference. Variable valve timing is where essentially the cams can retard or advance as beneficial to the hp or emissions. Subaru started in the USA with that in around 2006. It adds another layer to Subaru Lego.

 

An ej22e can run most any Subaru that uses the 6\7 triggers. Those ecu are jecs only. Up to about 2002 in a Forester.. However the phase 2 cars need some hokey work around with idle control and such.. If the car uses 36-2-2-2 trigger control, then its not.even going to spark or fire an injector

 

Your magic Forester is going to be a 1998. One year only. That's the one you need to seek if you wish an ej22e

[thook44]

dude, some of that jargon is beyond me....lol! nevertheless, i'm pretty sure i know what you're talking about

 

this still doesn't address my round about question, though; what if ecu's (harnesses...everything) are swapped out? i can't imagine it's any different than any toyota 4x4 engine swap, but the world is weird at times

[thook44]

oh, the lust....

https://i0.wp.com/offroadsubaru.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/IMG_3737.jpg

 

right?..lol! so, i was talking to my wife about all this stuff and she's like..."uh, what about the sunroof?"...haha! well, those didn't come factory until 2001. hmmm...

[matt167]

That Forester is at least a 2001. Those tail lights were used 2001-2002 only, and the front is a little bit different than 1998-2000 too.. Sunroofs were not standard in 2001. I have a 2001 "S" with no sunroof and a 5spd with cold weather package. It's an odd one for sure

 

You could swap harnesses or merge an older ECU. People do that with the older Turbo ECU's in states that do not require to be plugged in for any inspection... But it would be a complete waste of time for a N/A EJ22E

[heartless]

one other thing i've not mentioned is my aversion to interference engines.

 

yeah, I had the same aversion, to be perfectly honest... but I am slowly getting over it.

 

my 95 Legacy was the last non-interference EJ22 I owned... I finally let it go last winter - after having the Foz for several months.

 

a well cared for, properly maintained EJ25 is not a problem. Just do NOT let the maintenance slide. When you do a timing job, you do the WHOLE job, not just belts, or belts & water pump... you do everything - idler pulleys, tensioner, seals, waterpump, t-stat - everything! With quality parts. Do it all, do it once, and be done for the next 90-100K.

 

If you get one that you don't have any kind of maintenance history on (like i did) - Do the timing for peace of mind - like i did (i found out about the head gaskets being replaced after i got the car and did a VIN search). I bought this car with 219K on it... I know the timing should be fine until around 300-315K because ALL of the timing belt components were replaced - by me - right after getting it. I refused to drive it until that job was done because I was terrified of something letting go. PO could not recall when it was done last, which told me it was probably long over-due.

[thook44]

....(nevermind this...having trouble figuring editing feature)

Edited August 30, 2017 by thook44

[thook44]

That Forester is at least a 2001. Those tail lights were used 2001-2002 only, and the front is a little bit different than 1998-2000 too.. Sunroofs were not standard in 2001. I have a 2001 "S" with no sunroof and a 5spd with cold weather package. It's an odd one for sure

 

You could swap harnesses or merge an older ECU. People do that with the older Turbo ECU's in states that do not require to be plugged in for any inspection... But it would be a complete waste of time for a N/A EJ22E

yes...it is indeed a 2001 in the pic. hence the factory sunroof/2001 reference. i just posted it for fun

 

not

sure what you mean "merge" an older ecu. unless you mean running in

tandem? this leads me to suspect you may still not understand what is

i'm asking at this point

[thook44]

yeah, I had the same aversion, to be perfectly honest... but I am slowly getting over it.

 

my 95 Legacy was the last non-interference EJ22 I owned... I finally let it go last winter - after having the Foz for several months.

 

a well cared for, properly maintained EJ25 is not a problem. Just do NOT let the maintenance slide. When you do a timing job, you do the WHOLE job, not just belts, or belts & water pump... you do everything - idler pulleys, tensioner, seals, waterpump, t-stat - everything! With quality parts. Do it all, do it once, and be done for the next 90-100K.

 

If you get one that you don't have any kind of maintenance history on (like i did) - Do the timing for peace of mind - like i did (i found out about the head gaskets being replaced after i got the car and did a VIN search). I bought this car with 219K on it... I know the timing should be fine until around 300-315K because ALL of the timing belt components were replaced - by me - right after getting it. I refused to drive it until that job was done because I was terrified of something letting go. PO could not recall when it was done last, which told me it was probably long over-due.

i've done a number of timing assemblies. i'm aware of the importance of the doing everything and with quality parts....

 

i did a valve adjustment on a 3vze 4runner for some friends with a shop here in winslow. a week later i went back in for something unrelated and they informed me they were having to redo the timing assembly because the idler pulley on the water inlet failed. it just blew up. it was a new kit they put in before i'd adjusted the valves. and, it was from o'reilly. the kit i put in my suby a few months ago was full japanese kit i bought online from a reputable retailer. even though this motor.....and that 3vze....are non-interference, it is still a pita to get towed and have to start all over. and, that kit that failed in my old 22re 4runner may have been an o'reilly kit. can't say...i had someone else do it (a certified toyota tech, actually) because i had no clue on vehicles at that time. i thought that kit should've gone longer, but it didn't. one day i turned the key to start it and <<<<plink!!!!>>> i could hear the chain snap and smack the cover. that was expensive because at the age of that motor it didn't make a lot of sense to just fix the head and replace the timing kit. i went ahead and did a full rebuild; cylinder hone, new bearings and rings, anyway. everything else was still well within factory tolerances

 

i don't know...i'm warming up to the idea of an interference motor, but i still haven't read/heard of any real reason as to why i couldn't just do a full swap out from say my '94 to say that '04 in one of the ads i posted. again, i'm not necessarily seeking plug and play. (forget the variable valve timing option)

 

edit: come to think of it, the tech may have gotten the kit from the toyota dealer since he used to work there.....and, actually went back to them not long after working on my vehicle

Edited August 30, 2017 by thook44

[matt167]

yes...it is indeed a 2001 in the pic. hence the factory sunroof/2001 reference. i just posted it for fun

 

not

sure what you mean "merge" an older ecu. unless you mean running in

tandem? this leads me to suspect you may still not understand what is

i'm asking at this point

 

Harness merge is extremely popular in Subaru usually to gain turbo engines.. Basically all the cars are close enough but different enough that nothing matches up perfectly if you were to just swap harnesses. What you end up doing is using most of the donor harness which is modified to fit the car your putting it into using remements of the harness you took out.. Things like cluster wiring, light wiring, HVAC wiring all need to be converted to the car your using by using those parts of the harness, matched up and spliced using diagrams ect...... It's an involved process that costs $800-1000 to have done professionally.

You could put a 1994 engine in a 2004 something doing it that way, with a couple big hiccups. One being your speedometer will not work without "hackery". 1994 as far as I know were all cable driven speedo, so speed sensor would have to have a seperate circuit as the harness will not have it. ALL of the HVAC is different and if you know the SG6 HVAC has the funky dial for the switch, you have to make all that work... The other big one is, you loose OBD-2 compatibility and then the value of it drops pretty much 100% if you ever wanted to sell, and you WILL hate this car when your done..

 

The only swap I would even consider for this crazy project is a 1998 Forester harness and cluster complete into 1999-2002 Forester. OR you could also use the wiring harness from a 1997-1998 Impreza wagon with some minor adjustment.

[thook44]

crazy project...hehe

 

don't care about obd-2. i've lived and worked with obd-1 for so long. i know about obd-2, but can't say i feel i'm missing anything. and, resale? pffth...i run my cars until they die

 

yep...the '94 is cable speedo.

 

now, you're bringing up points i had not considered nor seen really mentioned in my searches. granted, i've just really begun digging into this subject. this gives me some things to think about and more questions to formulate, though.

 

thank you!

[thook44]

would you help me clarify? my 2.2L is not a phase I motor, right? phase 1 is when the 2.2L became interference?

[matt167]

Phase 1 is 1990-1998 ej22e or 1996-1999 ej25d. All ej25 SOHC are phase 2 from 1999 on

[thook44]

Harness merge is extremely popular in Subaru usually to gain turbo engines.. Basically all the cars are close enough but different enough that nothing matches up perfectly if you were to just swap harnesses. What you end up doing is using most of the donor harness which is modified to fit the car your putting it into using remements of the harness you took out.. Things like cluster wiring, light wiring, HVAC wiring all need to be converted to the car your using by using those parts of the harness, matched up and spliced using diagrams ect...... It's an involved process that costs $800-1000 to have done professionally.

You could put a 1994 engine in a 2004 something doing it that way, with a couple big hiccups. One being your speedometer will not work without "hackery". 1994 as far as I know were all cable driven speedo, so speed sensor would have to have a seperate circuit as the harness will not have it. ALL of the HVAC is different and if you know the SG6 HVAC has the funky dial for the switch, you have to make all that work... The other big one is, you loose OBD-2 compatibility and then the value of it drops pretty much 100% if you ever wanted to sell, and you WILL hate this car when your done..

 

The only swap I would even consider for this crazy project is a 1998 Forester harness and cluster complete into 1999-2002 Forester. OR you could also use the wiring harness from a 1997-1998 Impreza wagon with some minor adjustment.

 

if you wouldn't mind, let's explore this last statement a smidge....

 

you're saying '98 harness/cluster into a 1999-2002 with my '94 motor? or the impreza harness....again...with my motor? there's a chance i could get my hands on the '98 harness and cluster IF the guy i know still has his parts cars. but, with the impreza i'd have to shop around. what are those minor adjustments, though?

 

i found a thread going into a pretty odd swap like i'm considering. not sure if the info in it is relevant, yet. i'll keep reading

 

oh, and is the speed sensor for the forester....say a 2001...at all ecu controlled or dependent? and, does it also control the tach? the one in my '92 4rnr assists in a/t shifting function. when it goes south, the tach, speedo, shifting, everything gets really weird..haha.

Edited August 31, 2017 by thook44

[matt167]

You would need a 1996-1998 EJ22E intake manifold with the 1998 harness to use your 1994 long block, but it will work... 1997-1998 Impreza wagon is pretty much same size as a Forester, and the dash/ electronics are the same. You'll have wire length issues and light connections won't be right but you can make it work... Speedo and tach both run through the ECU on a 2001.