'05 Outback with 85,000 miles -- time to replace timing belt?

[freekraz]

Hello all,

 

Our family workhorse '05 Outback Wagon 5-speed has 85,000 miles. Was at Midas today to get the brakes done. There is a small oil leak from the front crankshaft seal. Should I consider doing the entire timing belt/water pump at the same time? Midas is quoting $825 for the timing belt, water pump and seal.

 

Thanks for any advice.

 

Jeff in Watertown, MA

[montana tom]

Close enough, I think 105,000 is factory suggested.  However  midas would NOT be my first choice of a subaru shop.  That said, whomever works on it for you, make very sure they are installing only parts made in japan... preferably subaru . Parts with a normally good american name brand may  end up being manufactured in china...  All the parts must be replaced, not just belt,water pump &  seal.   The tensioner and all thee idler's MUST be done at the same time. Both cam seals and the ft. crank seal should be done as well. This is an interference motor .... poor quality parts will leave you on the side of the road with bent valves and a big headache dealing with the new repair.   I recommend looking for a shop that is used to working on subarus , talk to them first and see what parts they suggest and if they install only high quality Japanese parts. 

[golucky66]

^ agreed So much.

 

Do NOT have the timing belt down by a chain shop. Please.

Find a good Subaru shop and as tom said. Make sure they use good quality parts. 825$ is not enough to do the job right imo.

 

Depends where you live. But my shop in CT charges 1200 for a COMPLETE timing belt job. Idlers, tensioner, all seals, belt, water pump.

[brus brother]

+ on finding a good independent Subaru mechanic. Perhaps starting another thread and asking for one in your area will get you a lead.

I might not even rely on Midas' report of a leaking "seal".

I recall that the interval for 05 is 105K miles OR 8 years

Time wise you seem to be way over. Age can be a byitch!

+ on getting the idlers, gears and tensioners done

An experienced subaru mechanic could evaluate the idlers etc. for wear and need of replacement but as I mentioned, time wise, you seem to be over the mark.

ALSO, shortly after my 05 timing belt replacement at 105, the car developed an external headgasket leak. Started as weeping around the gaskets but is now crying a river!

I just keep an eye on the oil level and hopefully will make it to the next interval. Currently at 180K miles.

So if your's has begun weeping and you plan on owning for a while, have them look at the HGs and decide. A few more dollars invested now while they have the engine apart will save the headache later on.

Edited September 6, 2017 by brus brother

[1 Lucky Texan]

if you're paying for someone else's labor, makes sense to do seals and waterpump I think.

[idosubaru]

You're way over the time constraint - yes the belt and pulleys all need replaced. 

Since you'll be cutting costs somewhere, skip the water pump and replace it at the next timing belt interval.  The water pumps on those engines don't really fail or present any issues.  Many shops install a lower quality pump than the original pump which are much better, so it's equally pointless, or a toss-up at best, to replace it on those grounds as well.  

If you did replace it - get a Subaru or Aisin pump.  

 

Here's what you want for another 10 years and 105,000 miles of reliability:

New timing kit:  belt, pulleys, tensioner - ideally Subaru but you likely won't get that

Both cam seals

Reseal the oil pump (crank seal, oil pump oring and sealant)

Change the coolant, thermostat, and add Subaru Coolant Conditioner

[montana tom]

^ Agreed on the water pump and thermostat  (only subaru on this part) and brus brother is also right on suggesting a  good look at the head gaskets , if they are not leaking the subaru conditioner can stop/delay it. 

[freekraz]

Thanks to all for very valuable information! I will seek out an independent shop in the Boston area. If anyone has any suggestions, please add to the thread.

 

Regards,

 

Jeff in Watertown, MA

[wirelessenabled]

^ agreed So much.

 

Do NOT have the timing belt down by a chain shop. Please.

Find a good Subaru shop and as tom said. Make sure they use good quality parts. 825$ is not enough to do the job right imo.

 

Depends where you live. But my shop in CT charges 1200 for a COMPLETE timing belt job. Idlers, tensioner, all seals, belt, water pump.

Why should a timing belt replacement be so expensive?  I just did my daughter's 2002 Legacy sedan with 2.5 SOHC.

 

Used all Koyo, NTN parts, Aisin water pump, Mitsuboshi belt.  Replaced all coolant hoses, top, bottom and heater. New thermostat. Subaru OEM green coolant.  New hose in overflow tank.  All new clamps. New OEM alternator and a/c belts.

 

I took the radiator out and flushed it out inside and outside.  Took oil pump off, new seal and checked screws on the back.  Reinstalled oil pump with Ultra Grey sealant.  I also spent time cleaning all parts touched and the area I was working in.

 

All of these parts were about $400 and the entire job took me about 4 hours.  I have done 2 of these this year on family cars but I am not by any means a professional mechanic.

 

So I get back to why should this job be $1200?

[wirelessenabled]

Should add that I did not do the cam seals but there was no sign of leaking.  The timing belt cover was absolutely spotless on the inside.

[golucky66]

Why should a timing belt replacement be so expensive? I just did my daughter's 2002 Legacy sedan with 2.5 SOHC.

 

Used all Koyo, NTN parts, Aisin water pump, Mitsuboshi belt. Replaced all coolant hoses, top, bottom and heater. New thermostat. Subaru OEM green coolant. New hose in overflow tank. All new clamps. New OEM alternator and a/c belts.

 

I took the radiator out and flushed it out inside and outside. Took oil pump off, new seal and checked screws on the back. Reinstalled oil pump with Ultra Grey sealant. I also spent time cleaning all parts touched and the area I was working in.

 

All of these parts were about $400 and the entire job took me about 4 hours. I have done 2 of these this year on family cars but I am not by any means a professional mechanic.

 

So I get back to why should this job be $1200?

Even off Amazon, the Asian t-belt kit is around 250$ i think we can get it from woldpac for around 300.

The serpentine belt on the newer cars (the ones that have 1 belt) is about 38$ for a good brand.

Cam and crank seals ~10$ for the 3 we use Pentofrost OEM specific coolant (blue on 09+) which costs us about 28$ a gallon.

 

Plus labor time is about 4.4 hours. And my shops labor rate is just about 110/hour.

 

Now take the parts, mark them up, which is what happens in shops.

~500 in labor

~350-400$ in parts before mark up.

 

Total 850-900 before parts markup, waste coolant disposal cost, shop supplies like brake clean etc. And typically misc hardware, hose clamp, bolt. Etc.

 

I will admit, we do not remove and inspect oil pumps because we have never seen an issue with them either leaking or with the screws on the back. But we work on 08+ typically.

Edited September 8, 2017 by golucky66

[golucky66]

My Subaru customers have no problem paying 1100-1200$ for a t-belt job because they know were going to take care of them. Use the highest quality parts, spend the time and make sure they won't have the issue.

 

And if they do, and something does happen to fail. They know were going to stand behind our work without question. If that belt breaks due to something that we messed up on, on install. Or a part fails, were going to take care of you.

 

In my area, there's literally no good Subaru shops. Even the dealers are absolute garbage and we get at least 1 customer every week or two because they went to the dealer and weren't happy.

 

I completely agree with you though. I just did two timing belt with the same parts for family friends and total (they also payed me) was 500$. Much much cheaper for the same quality job.

The biggest thing to always remember. Would you rather pay 20% more and know you have a highly skilled and capable technician, and a shop that's going to warranty the job without giving you the running around if it fails?

Or go to a midas for 800$ and have no idea wtf is going on under those covers.

[wirelessenabled]

If I were to take it to a shop there is no question that I would pay the 20% more to a decent Subaru shop.

 

Guess I was lucky and patient in gathering up the parts from online dealers and Ebay for these 2 jobs.

 

All these parts were Subaru branded except the pulleys and T-belt which were OEM but not labeled Subaru.

 

I paid $12.71 for the alternator belt and $12.36 for the a/c belt.

$167.30 for the T-belt, NTN tensioner, and the 3 pulleys Koyo and NSK.

$44.00 for the Aisin water pump and

nearly $60 for the 2 gallons of Subaru long life green coolant.

 

I would have been nearer $300 in parts than $400 if I had not used genuine Subaru coolant.

[golucky66]

The cost of timing belt job adds up real quick when you use high quality parts and have a good and trusted technician working on your Subaru.

 

So think about that. Even you just said about 300$ in parts (before coolant) and a midas is only charging ~800$ for the job?

Kinda scary what they're using. Or worse, paying the "technicians" to replace such an important part of your car.

[brus brother]

If I were to take it to a shop there is no question that I would pay the 20% more to a decent Subaru shop.

 

Guess I was lucky and patient in gathering up the parts from online dealers and Ebay for these 2 jobs.

 

All these parts were Subaru branded except the pulleys and T-belt which were OEM but not labeled Subaru.

 

I paid $12.71 for the alternator belt and $12.36 for the a/c belt.

$167.30 for the T-belt, NTN tensioner, and the 3 pulleys Koyo and NSK.

$44.00 for the Aisin water pump and

nearly $60 for the 2 gallons of Subaru long life green coolant.

 

I would have been nearer $300 in parts than $400 if I had not used genuine Subaru coolant.

the kits (Gates) have become unpredictable. Care to share the names/sites where you sourced your parts?

[golucky66]

 

the kits (Gates) have become unpredictable. Care to share the names/sites where you sourced your parts?

Just an fyi. You can literally buy an Asian T-belt kit off Amazon (at least on new EJ25) for low to mid 200's. Comes with again pump, NTN NSK parts and a mitsubishi belt. Imo, quickest and easiest way. You could probably source all the parts individually for cheaper. But at least for me, i don't have all that time to save ~20-40$.

Edited September 9, 2017 by golucky66

[wirelessenabled]

the kits (Gates) have become unpredictable. Care to share the names/sites where you sourced your parts?

Hope the link is not stopped by this site.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MITSUBOSHI-Timing-Belt-KOYO-NSK-NTN-Tensioner-Idler-Kit-TKF007TBHTIK/122058842683?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

 

Price was about $10 cheaper at the start of the Summer.  This is a quality kit, all OEM idlers/pulleys/tensioner, belt is a Mistsuboshi.

 

I got most of the parts off Ebay but some from online dealers and even some from local dealers.

Edited September 12, 2017 by wirelessenabled

[golucky66]

The Mistsuboshi and Asain kits are the only ones that I've found that come with quality parts anymore

I and my shop avoid gates t belt kits like they're the plague. Not always ntn and nsk parts.

[idosubaru]

All of these parts were about $400 and the entire job took me about 4 hours.  I have done 2 of these this year on family cars but I am not by any means a professional mechanic.

 

So I get back to why should this job be $1200?

 

Where do we start? 

 

Time is money and we all have varying perceptions and applications of that principle.

He also was quoted a cam seal - not a difficult job, but an additional 30-60 minutes labor.

 

Shops can't spend hours sifting/organizing parts for every single job.  So parts pricing at a shop is going to be higher than you selectively spending hours looking for good deals.

 

Overhead - it costs money to operate a business. 

 

If you think you can do it cheaper and be a profitable well known business - then you should start a Subaru repair shop as you'll tear it up in the PNW. 

 

But you can't and won't.  $1,200 is not out of line. 

[wirelessenabled]

I have no desire to run a Subaru shop.  Having said that I do own and run a business.  We buy in bulk and get better prices that way. We also do not spend hours and hours buying a piece here and there.

 

Most Subarus use the same parts and so it does not seem out of reason that shops that do lots of these jobs could get some pretty good deals if they buy more at one time.  Should be able to easily get at least as good of prices as I did by shopping around.  Of course you have to have some capital to do business that way.  Maybe that is the barrier.

[Horsehockey]

The 105 month (8.75 years) interval for the T-Belt is real. Just had the belt changed on my wife's 2007 OB which has only 84K on the clock. The belt that came off (OEM) was cracking in a dozen places. $2500 for an engine rebuild. Take your pick.

[1 Lucky Texan]

The 105 month (8.75 years) interval for the T-Belt is real. Just had the belt changed on my wife's 2007 OB which has only 84K on the clock. The belt that came off (OEM) was cracking in a dozen places. $2500 for an engine rebuild. Take your pick.

 

did my WRX at a little over 8 years - under 64K miles. Belt seemed OK - but 2 rollers were very 'loose' and on of those, the toothed idler, was a little wobbly.

 

no regrets

Edited September 15, 2017 by 1 Lucky Texan