2014 Legacy oil - SUbaru synthetic or Mobil one, or other?

[740gle]

Subaru specs synthetic oil for the above. The Subaru oil 0-20 is $7+/quart from the dealer, Is 0-20w Mobil One acceptable, or is there some additional Subaru specific requirements?

[Mike104]

I believe that any synthetic that is 0W20 is suitable.  If you look in your owners manual it will tell you what specification is needed to be met.  Most synthetic oils on the market are aware of the OEM specs and generally try to meet those requirements.

[GeneralDisorder]

Amsoil. And personally we prefer to run 5w30. The 0w20 spec is for CAFE standards, not engine longevity.

 

GD

[740gle]

Amsoil. And personally we prefer to run 5w30. The 0w20 spec is for CAFE standards, not engine longevity.

 

GD

Amsoil is $12/qt.  Ouch....  I've been running Mobil-1 in many different cars including Subies, and didn't have any problems at about 1/3rd of the price...

[GeneralDisorder]

Mobile 1 is watered down from what it was 20 years ago.

 

The price is off zero concern. If you are worried about $30 extra in oil cost per 10,000 miles then why even ask the question? If you do analysis you will find that the Amsoil will last far longer than the Mobile 1 and protect better.

 

Use Amsoil's XL 5w30, and their filter, and change it every 10,000.

 

GD

[Mike104]

Subaru doesn't make their own oil.  It's no better that what you can get at any parts store.  I've never used Amsoil products but others that have swear by them.  

[740gle]

Subaru doesn't make their own oil.  It's no better that what you can get at any parts store.  I've never used Amsoil products but others that have swear by them.  

yes, they do not, but they may have soemthing special. Like for instance with synthetic AT for some cars (Volvos) plain vanilla mobil 1 synth AT would not do, there is a fine print...

[740gle]

ANyhoo, it turns out that subarupartsandaccessories.com has original Subie oil at $5.83 which with shipping is still a bit more than mobil 1, but it'll come to my doorstep, hopefully with the filter and gasket

Edited September 28, 2017 by 740gle

[Mike104]

yes, they do not, but they may have soemthing special. Like for instance with synthetic AT for some cars (Volvos) plain vanilla mobil 1 synth AT would not do, there is a fine print...

 

AT fluid is a different animal.  According to the owners manual for your MY, oil meeting API classification SM with Energy Conserving or SN with Resource Conserving are acceptable oils.  ILSAC GF-4 or GF-5 are also acceptable.  Mobil 1 meets these specifications.

 

Feel free to use what you wish.  

Pages from MSA5M1404ASTIS_18.pdf

Edited September 28, 2017 by Mike104

[GeneralDisorder]

The Subaru oil is crap. I've seen what kind of deposits all the different oils leave after 100k. If you are getting it for 5.83, Subaru is buying it for $2. Their parts markup is EXTREMELY high.

 

GD

[740gle]

Thanks guys, if Mobil 1 is OK, next time it what it is going to be...

[idosubaru]

Thanks guys, if Mobil 1 is OK, next time it what it is going to be...

Subaru has never had proprietary oils, has any major manufacturer? Sounds like a headache and liability if someone tried it.

 

Other fluids - you're exactly right and need to pay attention to your vehicle/model/year as they vary and have changed over the years/decades.

 

www.cars101.com is a reasonable starting point for maintenance resources if you don't feel like flipping through a manual.

Edited September 29, 2017 by idosubaru

[keith3267]

I use Mobil 1 FE which is their fuel economy version.  In any engine that specifies 0w20 synthetic, I would highly recommend against using a different grade of oil such as 5w30.  It isn't specified just for CAFE reasons, the engine is designed to use this oil.

[idosubaru]

I use Mobil 1 FE which is their fuel economy version. In any engine that specifies 0w20 synthetic, I would highly recommend against using a different grade of oil such as 5w30. It isn't specified just for CAFE reasons, the engine is designed to use this oil.

That's fine for one to go by and is a great starting and end point for most people, particularly people with limited automotive experience. but "is designed for" phrases usually have limited practicality. It's too black and white and doesn't describe anything meaningful about a mechanical system.

 

If the car "is designed" for...By that logic only getting 4.72 quarts out of 5, or getting a small leak, or having oil that was 2W-20 by some manufacturing/packaging/environmental/driving constraint would be cause for catastrophe.

 

but people aren't concerned with measuring those numbers because inherently they know it doesn't matter, there is a "range". So theyre not following their own logic. Same principle can be extrapolated on and on.

 

That "range" is of interest to some and not others. Trying to make someone switch their views is pointless, but neither way is wrong.

 

Subarus weren't "designed for" swaps, lifts, conversions, and more. This forum is loaded with rule breakers.

[GeneralDisorder]

The 0w means the stuff is good down to about NEGATIVE 65 degrees. Important for snow mobiles maybe.

The clearance in the engine is EXACTLY THE SAME. I'm really getting sick of people not actually verifying their claims. Here's specs from the EJ FSM (2005), Followed by the same specs from the FB (2013):

Connecting rod side clearance: EJ: 0.0028" - 0.0130" FB: 0.0028" - 0.0130"

Connecting rod oil clearance: EJ: 0.0007" - 0.0018" FB: 0.0007" - 0.0018"

Crankshaft thrust clearance: EJ: 0.0012" - 0.0045" FB: 0.0012" - 0.0045"

Crankshaft oil clearance: EJ: 0.0004" - 0.0012" FB: 0.0004" - 0.0012"

If anyone would like to verify my claims, download the manual and look for your own self.

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/showthread.php?18087-Subaru-Factory-Service-Manuals-(FSM)-Every-Model-USDM-EU

Now can all the morons please shut up about using 30 weight in the FA/FB? It's completely fine.

All my engine builds leave with 0.001" mains, and .00125" rods. We line hone and resize rods to hit this within tenths. We run Amsoil 15w50 Dominator race oil. With a 15 minute warm up stipulation before loading the engine. Aluminium block/forged crank means the main bearing clearance will grow to about 0.002" due to thermal expansion. And the forged pistons slap when cold for the same reason.

Let me repeat that for you. STOCK bearing clearances and 15w50. And we load these engines to 500+ HP. We had one detonate so badly at 25 psi boost (clogged injector) that it split the cylinder liner open like a banana. Upon tear down there was ZERO damage to the bottom end. Lubrication is not a problem and even under detonation so severe it DESTROYED the cylinder liner and engine block, the Dominator oil film saved the mains and rods from damage.

GD

Edited October 2, 2017 by GeneralDisorder

[golucky66]

Now can all the morons please shut up about using 30 weight in the FA/FB? It's completely fine.

GD

In terms of when the car is under warranty 3/36, i wouldn't run anything but 0w20 because if something happend to the engine, they'd try to blame it on the wrong oil viscounty and your probably be out a couple grand.

 

After that. Use whatever the heck you want. And if the tolerances are truly the same, like the manual says. Then i feel its 95% to do with fuel economy.

 

Either way. High quality oil has more impact on your engine the the weight.

[GeneralDisorder]

In terms of when the car is under warranty 3/36, i wouldn't run anything but 0w20 because if something happend to the engine, they'd try to blame it on the wrong oil viscounty and your probably be out a couple grand.

 

Yes there is something to be said for that. But you can easily just buy the 0w20 and filter so you have the reciept, return it, and get the 5w30. 

 

GD

[idosubaru]

In terms of when the car is under warranty 3/36, i wouldn't run anything but 0w20 because if something happend to the engine, they'd try to blame it on the wrong oil viscounty and your probably be out a couple grand. .

That's a good point.

 

While few want to take the chance it's really only practically applicable for OCD types, or abuse/neglect, or turbo Subarus. I wouldn't care, but I also have a good relationship with my dealer.

 

Otherwise warranty ideas are overinflated just like "designed for"...true but practically insignificant.

 

They're only even going to look if something is suspicious. If they have an oil leaking EJ headgasket or FB burner - yawn - they're not even going to usually ask. I'd be shocked if my dealer pulled that on me.

 

If the cam is seized, plastic melted, and black deposits everywhere then that's clearly a failure abnormality and they'll start wondering.

 

Also they'd have a PR nightmare if they routinely denied coverage for details that are not causative. That would be business stupid.

 

That's what I "think". My local experience tells the same story (abuse, entitled and turbos notwithstanding):

 

Of the people I personally work with none have ever even been asked to produce receipts. Transmission failure with very high miles but extended warranty - the dealer replaced it no questions asked. And theres almost zero chance that person had changed the fluid.

 

How many examples of it happening are there? and if there is - there's probably some back story abrasive entitled customer or teeny ragging a car mommy and daddy bought them.

 

But yeah not worth the risk so we would have the same recommendation.

[keith3267]

I guess I have to stand corrected on the side clearances of the bearings.  I got that information from somewhere but I don't remember where and I have not been able to find it again.  It was not specific for Subaru, it was from a generic source so it might still apply to some manufacturers.  There is one change in the new Subaru engines for 0w20 oil and that is the oil filter bypass valve.  It was changed to a lower dP (delta pressure or differential pressure) to maintain higher oil pressure to the bearings.  Last thing you would want with thin oil is lower pressure, but that would not preclude using a higher viscosity oil.

 

I'm still going to use Mobil 1 FE for the time being.  I was going to use Pennzoil synthetic but I used it in my daughters 14 Camry and when I changed it the second time (40k, the dealer did the first two oil changes), I noticed some sludge inside the oil filter housing.  I don't know if the sludge was due to the oil that the dealer used for the free 24 month maintenance or the 10k oil change interval or the Pennzoil, but we are switching her to Mobil 1 FE and a 7500 mile interval.

 

GD, thanks for the link to the service manual.  I always buy the FSM with every new car I buy, but when I bought the Subaru, they would not sell me a FSM.  I looked into an AllData account but at that time, they had no Subaru information after 2012.  Subaru only offered a subscription service to their website, not cheap either.  I hadn't checked since then so I don't know if they changed their policies but I would not have bought the Subaru if I had known that I couldn't buy the FSM.

Edited October 2, 2017 by keith3267

[Mike104]

Another option for a service manual

Edited October 2, 2017 by Mike104

[GeneralDisorder]

You can get a 72 hour subscription to the Subaru tech info site for $35. And for 72 hours you can download as many PDF's as you like and keep them.

 

The differential pressure of the filter only comes into play when the filter cannot flow enough and the internal bypass valve opens. Such as when the oil is extremely cold, very high RPM, or extremely dirty/inefficient element  , etc. The oil pressure to the bearings is the same as it's always been - regulated to a max of about 90-95 psi by the bypass valve inside the oil pump. Higher quality filters that have better filtration and better flow (the Subaru Of America [blue] OE filter is abysmal as are Toyota OE filters) do not need a high DP to force oil through a crappy element.

 

Additionally, the design of the bypass valve has the oil first washing over the filter element. For this reason we recommend WIX filters as they have an "up front" bypass design that does not have unfiltered oil washing over a dirty element before being bypassed. We also use the Amsoil filters - they do not develop high DP (synthetic element, 15,000 mile filter) so do not need the high DP bypass valve. They have 15 psi valves. The WIX are stock psi but a much better design and a better filtration element.

 

GD 

Edited October 2, 2017 by GeneralDisorder

[idosubaru]

Additionally, the design of the bypass valve has the oil first washing over the filter element. For this reason we recommend WIX filters as they have an "up front" bypass design that does not have unfiltered oil washing over a dirty element before being bypassed. We also use the Amsoil filters - they do not develop high DP (synthetic element, 15,000 mile filter) so do not need the high DP bypass valve. They have 15 psi valves. The WIX are stock psi but a much better design and a better filtration element. 

 

You're using oil *and* filters "not designed" by Subaru engineers, I didn't know you were that desperate for cores?  HA HA!

[GeneralDisorder]

Funny thing - the stuff the Subaru engineers designed wont make 500 HP. So we have had to go elsewhere for quite a few parts.

 

Do 25 pulls on a dyno running a high performance Blouch turbo on Mobile 1 and you start to see that all oils aren't created equally. Mobile 1 will cause thrust bearing failure in short order. Not enough zinc and film strength is far too weak. 

 

Have a read though this:

 

http://store.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/graphics/news/Forced%20Performance%20Recommendations%20for%20Motor%20Oil.pdf

 

GD

Edited October 2, 2017 by GeneralDisorder

[740gle]

Funny thing - the stuff the Subaru engineers designed wont make 500 HP. So we have had to go elsewhere for quite a few parts.

 

Do 25 pulls on a dyno running a high performance Blouch turbo on Mobile 1 and you start to see that all oils aren't created equally. Mobile 1 will cause thrust bearing failure in short order. Not enough zinc and film strength is far too weak. 

 

Have a read though this:

 

http://store.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/graphics/news/Forced%20Performance%20Recommendations%20for%20Motor%20Oil.pdf

 

GD

subaru engineers didn't have 500HP spec, they were designed to the crash tests, mileage, EPA, costs, qualified suppliers, serviceability, etc....

Edited October 2, 2017 by 740gle

[GeneralDisorder]

Exactly. 0w20 is for economy, emissions, and CAFE requirements. So far they haven't been able to mass produce a reliable engine to use the 0w16 spec or they would. That's how close to the edge they are running with 0w20. They can't yet build one for 0w16 and get it to hold together.

 

It WILL result in increased wear. It also decreases resistance to detonation due to bad gas, carbon build up, etc. You would be surprised how easy it is to pound the bearings out of a Subaru rod.

 

GD