Crankshaft Bearing Replacement?

[MWLoyale]

I took my block to the local carquest machine shop to remove a bolt in the flexplate. The foreman there told me he would need to split the crankcase and check the crankshaft and connecting rod bearings. Is this necessary or is he trying to get me to spend a little extra cash? I know every case is different but has anyone heard of these parts failing?

[MWLoyale]

By the way when the engine failed, the crank pulley fell off

[skishop69]

Getting a bolt removed from the flexplate to crank has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BEARINGS!!! Tell him to go p!ss up a rope. This has got to be the most blatant rip-off ploy I've seen. Personally, I would call him on it, talk to the manager, take your engine, give them nothing and go to another machine shop. I would also file a complaint with the BBB. Wow. What a load of horse hockey.

[idosubaru]

Do not split the block.

 

Removing a bolt from the flexplate - that's about as easy as it gets, there's no need to split the block, you should have removed the bolt at home, or the shop should have no problems getting it out.

 

Why not just remove the bolt yourself -drill it off, grind the head off, use a chisel to knock a V into the edge and then turn the chisel into the "V" shape such that you're "loosening" the bolt.  

 

And what do you mean by "engine failed" and "crank pulley" fell off.  crank pulley falling off is one of the most overrated issues mentioned - engines get condemned for something that can be fixed in no time for less than $50. 

 

But your details and what you're trying to do are confusing. 

 

The story is hard to follow with flex plate....engine fail....crnak pulley falling off...we have no idea what happened, what's happening, and what your plans are. 

[MWLoyale]

I was driving home and my crank pulley fell off. I put it back on and I believe the timing was off because it ran like crap. When I parked it in the driveway I shut it off. I tried restarting it and it made a noise like the timing belt had skipped and sure enough when I got the timing covers off a belt was off its sprocket. I decided to replace the headgaskets and reseal the motor at this point because its at 150k and it showed signs of headgasket failure. As this is my first time doing a project this large, I got a little impatient and rounded off the last flexplate bolt. I attempted to drill it out but had no luck because the bolt extractor stuck in the bolt would not give at all. I also noticed the cylinders should probably be honed because the cross hatching wasn't visible which led me to the conclusion of worn piston rings, and with little experience on engines I figured I should leave honing to a professional. I apologize for not communicating effectively but technology really isn't my thing. I appreciate the help.

[idosubaru]

Okay they’re wanting to split the block for the rings then, not the flexplate or stuck bolt.

 

Id just install two used heads and be done with it.

Www.Car-part.com for the cheapest set of good heads in the country.

 

I would not want any random shop or person doing a hone and rering

 

Or just get another engine.

 

I’m not seeing what year or engine this is. If it’s an EJ25D then swap to an EJ22.

[MWLoyale]

EA82, 1993 loyale. I'm too far into it to ditch it.

[idosubaru]

That’s a noninterfernce engine. Reinstall the belt, or Heads and belt, and run it.

 

Resurface the heads yourshef or if you can find a place willing to do it reasonably without a full head job and pressure test.

 

Those engines can be very practical reliable and rack up high miles if not overheated or oil is abused

Edited October 27, 2017 by idosubaru

[Subasaurus]

i had an ea82 on a 1989 GL wagon with 314,000miles that continued to run even when the compression test showed between 38psi and 45psi, pretty funny how it still ran, burned about a quart of oil every 1000 miles or perhaps it was blow by since i think back in the day they had a recall about that and modified the rubber tubes going into the intake, anyways the ea82 is a good engine ignoring the fact that it has timing belts and the heads crack between the valves and "most" of the time the cracks are harmless.

 

about 2 years ago i forgot to check the oil level when i was over 4,000miles in, not sure how long it ran without oil, good engine though i trust it.

[skishop69]

You don't need to split the case to check ring gap. out of round or bore dimensions. Yes, if you're going to re-ring it, you have to split the case. Still nothing to do with bearings. I agree with the above though. Slap your heads and t-belt back on and go.

[GeneralDisorder]

Do NOT hone the cylinders. And DO NOT have some parts store machine shop get inside that motor. It will end very, very badly. Besides burning oil like none other if you hone it, they aren't equipped to do main and rod bearings on a Subaru engine. 

 

Cut your losses NOW and get a newer car. Sorry to say but the end of the line has been reached and exceeded with that vehicle. You cant get critical engine parts that wpuld be mandatory if thismuch worls needs to be done. Auch as the oil pump - they are discontinued and you can't get one. It's a done deal - stop wasting resources and get an EJ platform vehicle. 

 

GD

Edited October 28, 2017 by GeneralDisorder

[Gloyale]

You don't need to split the case to check ring gap. out of round or bore dimensions. Yes, if you're going to re-ring it, you have to split the case. Still nothing to do with bearings. I agree with the above though. Slap your heads and t-belt back on and go.

 

You can drop new rings on the pistons without splitting the case.  I do them on almost all my headgasket jobs now.

 

Any engine with over 150k benefits from a fresh set of rings.

 

I would slap new rings and new headgaskets on it and go. It will last a long time still.  The rods and mains on these engines are very robust for the 90 hp the make.

[idosubaru]

You can drop new rings on the pistons without splitting the case. I do them on almost all my headgasket jobs now.e.

New rings require a home right?

 

I can’t imagine not converting my XT6 to newer if the engine goes wonky but good to know my options.

[GeneralDisorder]

New rings require a hone right?

 

No. Common misconception. 

 

GD

[skishop69]

You can drop new rings on the pistons without splitting the case.  I do them on almost all my headgasket jobs now.

 

Yes, I seem to recall that now. Plugs on the case halves you can remove to access the wrist pin clips and then pull the wrist pins out.

 

Yes, you're SUPPOSED to hone when you re-ring, but because our engines use case halves and not a block, it requires special tools to do correctly or it will make things worse. The case actually flexes so you have to have both halves bolted together and then there is a plate that bolts where the head would go. Putting it all together this way puts the case in it's 'functional position' as if it were fully assembled which keeps the cylinders in a 'round' position. When the halves are not joined and there is no head or plate installed, the case halves are in their 'static' state and the flex causes warpage which distorts the cylinders causing them to twist or become oval. Bore or hone them in this state and you just made them out of round and created uneven gaps between the cylinder wall and the rings. It's on the order of thousandths of an inch, but that's all it takes to screw up your compression. Bad juju. Install the rings with no hone and then drive it like you stole it for at least 50 miles. Hard launches, running it to redline and loading the engine. The extra force of combustion will force the rings into the cylinder walls to help them seat. It's not ideal, but better than honing without the proper tools and it's actually how you are supposed to seat Moly rings used in performance engines.

 

Of course GD got in his two cents while I was typing. lol True, you don't have to hone to re-ring, but you should break the glaze in the cylinder for proper ring seating. You DO have to hone if it's bored. The boring process leaves cutting marks on the cylinder walls that they remove by honing.

Edited October 30, 2017 by skishop69

[GeneralDisorder]

From my experience, I'm a believer in no honing unless it's properly bored oversized and then they need a very smooth plateau hone. 

 

GD

[Gloyale]

Yes, I seem to recall that now. Plugs on the case halves you can remove to access the wrist pin clips and then pull the wrist pins out.

 

Yes, you're SUPPOSED to hone when you re-ring, but because our engines use case halves and not a block, it requires special tools to do correctly or it will make things worse. The case actually flexes so you have to have both halves bolted together and then there is a plate that bolts where the head would go. Putting it all together this way puts the case in it's 'functional position' as if it were fully assembled which keeps the cylinders in a 'round' position. When the halves are not joined and there is no head or plate installed, the case halves are in their 'static' state and the flex causes warpage which distorts the cylinders causing them to twist or become oval. Bore or hone them in this state and you just made them out of round and created uneven gaps between the cylinder wall and the rings. It's on the order of thousandths of an inch, but that's all it takes to screw up your compression. Bad juju. Install the rings with no hone and then drive it like you stole it for at least 50 miles. Hard launches, running it to redline and loading the engine. The extra force of combustion will force the rings into the cylinder walls to help them seat. It's not ideal, but better than honing without the proper tools and it's actually how you are supposed to seat Moly rings used in performance engines.

 

Of course GD got in his two cents while I was typing. lol True, you don't have to hone to re-ring, but you should break the glaze in the cylinder for proper ring seating. You DO have to hone if it's bored. The boring process leaves cutting marks on the cylinder walls that they remove by honing.

 

you are describing a re-bore

 

not a hone.  Hone is just basically a new, uniform scratching across the wall.  unfortunately conventional methods yeild poor results relative to the factory hone.

 

not needed for these rings in these engines.  as long as there is not severe damage to the cylinder walls, just put new rings in it.  It will be way better than the old ones.  Bump up compression, stop burning oil.  win win

[skishop69]

I did say bore or hone halfway through. Years ago I had the opportunity to witness the flex in the case at a machine shop I dealt with on a regular basis. I was dropping off an engine while he was working on an EA81 case. He explained it to me and showed me the difference by taking several snap gauge readings in one cylinder, bolting the cases together and plates on and measuring again. There was a difference and he did say boring and honing had to be done this way. I'm just relaying what I was told based on what I saw. I'm not saying you need to go to town on it, just a quick in an out to scuff the glaze but again, not on our engines. Just two different methods that both will work.

[MWLoyale]

Thanks everyone for your overwhelming advice, I called the shop and told them to not split the block. I plan on new rings and already have some adf reman heads along with timing belt and seals to put on.

[GeneralDisorder]

It's a commonly held belief that you must hone for new rings. There are cases, such as chrome faced rings, where this may still be true. I don't know about those because I would never use them and I think they have largely fallen put of use in general. 

 

But since the early 80's and especially since the introduction of fuel injection and modern synthetic oils, the bore on a properly maintained engine will have extremely little wear. What you have is a nicely machined surface - lapped completely smooth by the previous ring set. New rings are lapped at manufacture in hardened steel tubes and are perfectly round already. There is virtually no seating required. I can't tell you how many sets of forged pistons I've run on bores with 100k+ and none of them use any oil. 

 

The SAE did some testing on this in the 80's I believe and came to the conclusion that honing as part of a rebuild that didn't include a rebore, *in every case they tested* resulted in more engine wear, higher oil consumption, and reduced compression. This is because of the remaining grit from the grinding stones and ripped/torn cylinder wall and ring material contaminating the oil.

 

Chevy power magazine even said in the mid 80's that honing should not be done unless reboring if maximum power with minimum friction and wear is to be achieved...

 

My experience has been there is no such thing as ring seating on a properly machined modern engine. They are seated on the first crankshaft revolution, and after that they are wearing out. 

 

I could go on for days on this subject. Ultimately no matter who you talk to they have either never tried "not honing" because dad told them too and the fear of rings not seating keeps them from trying it, or they have never heard that this is even possible and are completely surprised and amazed at the results. I'm literally hundreds of engines into "not honing" and the few engines I had problems with were the ones that got honed because of rust or had been honed previously, etc. It's actually sad for me to open up some other shop's "rebuild" that's an oil burning disaster and find that the case halves have been ruined with a dingle ball..... if I had billions I would buy the company that makes those damn things and shut their doors. 

 

GD

[skishop69]

Damn you and your references! lol I yield as you can't argue with field testing from a reputable source. I started working on cars with my dad at 8 years old so you can say I'm old school. Back then, almost everyone said hone it. I will correct my stored data to no honing, lol