Keeping front tires planted (07 OBW, Bare bones model)

[Twitch de la Brat]

Ok, car in the discussion: 2007 Outback Wagon 2.5i basic. Meaning, this thing literally has no options. It's essentially a new age Brighton model. Manual, no traction control, lucky to have AC and power windows. Also, 16" wheels, not the standard 17" wheels literally every other trim level got. Anyway, onto the point!

 

I have been researching and reading up on anti-sway bars, new springs, possible lift kits, and adjustable sway bar links, all in the goal of getting my car to stop lifting the inside wheel on hard cornering.

A couple times (ok, more than a couple) I've had issues with the front inside tire lift and skitter when planting around a corner at WOT. This is a royal pain, as the onramp onto the freeway from my work is a hairpin with almost no run up.

So, if I might pick the brains of my fellow Subaru enthusiasts, would an adjustable rear anti-sway bar with matching adjustable links solve my problem? Or would it be recommended to get new springs and struts with it?

And then comes the snowball. Should I lift it while I'm down there replacing all the bits? Because the cost of a lift kit over factory replacement isn't much more, and I'd like the extra height. Nothing insane, but Rallitek's 2" lift sounds nice. Especially with the stiffer springs.

 

So, thoughts, ideas, shoutings of "you moron" or "stop driving your car so hard"?

 

Twitch

[1 Lucky Texan]

I don't see how a lift would do anything but exacerbate body roll - maybe leading to worse cornering.

what tires do you run? sounds like you need really sticky tires.

you could experiment with a lot of little things but, if you really do take corners regularly at the limits, more negative camber might be my first adjustment.

10 year-old struts could easily need replacing. KYB direct replacements are 15% stiffer than stock - NEW stock so, they 'should' feel much better than your present, likely 'soft' , struts. And you may have options for those; AGX, Tokico or Koni inserts (others here will know details)

Nothing wrong with experimenting with stiffer rear roll bar, but too much and the rear will step-out/oversteer on you.

not unusual to unload the inside, it isn't doing much anyway - stickier tires may be your next best upgrade if you're plowing.

 

you might check for motorsports threads at nasioc and maybe subaruoutback.org too.

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by 1 Lucky Texan

[idosubaru]

I’m not one to listen to with performance suspension stuff but if cornering and lifting tires is an issue a lift kit doesn’t sound (to an uninformed guy like me) like the best mix.

[Twitch de la Brat]

Already did the tires. Got myself some Cooper CS5s, Ultra Touring (V Rated). Not very happy with them so far.

Also, it's the fact that the suspension is allowing the front inside tire to literally lift off the ground.

New suspension is on the menu already, but I'm debating new springs at the same time, and if I do new springs, the lift springs are stiffer than the stock by about 15% as well as the new struts being stiffer.

I really wouldn't mind a little more oversteer, as the LSD makes it push more than I'd like in certain scenarios.

 

Twitch

[ronemus]

A bigger front sway bar will have the most effect on that lifting wheel - more downforce transferred from the outside to the inside.  Installing an anti-lift kit (actually it's an anti-anti-lift kit) will also help.  Worn stock shocks/struts (marginal at best when new) also contribute.  Lower profile tires on larger wheels will take advantage of the other mods, greatly improving the handling.

 

Finally, modifying the suspension so you have 0 toe and -0.5 degrees of camber at all four corners makes the handling neutral instead of the relentless understeer of the stock configuration.  I did this on my '90 & '02 Legacy wagons and my '17 Outback, but I can't tell you what parts are needed for your '07.  There is no rear camber adjustment in the stock suspension, but Moog makes adjustable control arms intended to bring bent chassis into line as well as extended-range camber bolts for the front.  The Moog parts are much less expensive than Whiteline or tuner parts; they do the job well, but don't have the bling.

[Bushwick]

I had a 99' Saab 9-3 FWD with a bigger turbo, and had a custom rear strut tower brace (tied both rear strut mounts to same bar, then anchored at the base of the back seat unibody hump) fabricated before the car was lowered (so still on factory springs and worn struts at the time) and that rear bar alone made it feel like a solid foot was removed from the overall wheelbase when turning (even at slow speeds). Completely changed how tight the car felt on harder turns. After that, added lowering springs and factory rear sway bar was doubled up. On junk Michelin tires with worn fronts, it just carved corners.

 

Stiffer rear bars you need to be careful with as the rear of the car can potentially kick out easier, which on a hairpin you don't want unless you are expecting it to.

 

If you can't find a rear strut bar for this, find a welder and get something custom. Main thing is the upper portion of the strut towers needs tie-in to each other and the floor at a rigid point. Can be made to barely interfere with trunk/cargo area and be reversible (generally speaking; this is general handling advice being given here). Would also consider a front tower to firewall brace. If you really want to go a step further, consider adding some unibody ties. Earlier Fox Mustangs needed these badly.

 

Basically anything that'll help prevent the body, strut towers, etc. from twisting, the better it *should* handle, or what's already there will hold up better. 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Bushwick

[1 Lucky Texan]

you might try tires more like Kumho ECSTA 4X next time you're due for tires.

[Fairtax4me]

A bigger front sway bar will have the most effect on that lifting wheel - more downforce transferred from the outside to the inside.

This is not entirely correct, and will only make the problem worse. Sway bars control body roll by lifting the inside wheel. The stiffer the sway bar is, the more it lifts the inside wheel.

A stiffer front bar promotes under-steer, which is the desired handling effect for factory vehicles because It's easier for the general public to maintain control of the vehicle in an under-steer situation. To get away from under-steer you upgrade the rear sway bar.

 

You need to start by upgrading the rear suspension. Especially on a wagon, and especially if you carry a lot of cargo/gear/tools in the back. Stiffer rear springs and new shocks to help control the compression of the rear suspension. And a stiffer rear sway bar to keep the heavier wagon rear end from rolling.

 

I have between 100-150lbs of tools, fluids, spare parts, and other car related items in the trunk of my car at all times. Add any other gear I use on a regular basis, (such as 40lb worth of tackle box, cooler, wading boots, other fishing gear) and every car I've owned for the last 10 years gets new stiffer rear springs (if available), and a stiffer rear sway bar.

 

A suspension lift will not help. Raised height springs will decrease the amount of droop that each wheel has before it comes off of the ground. Shocks/struts are the limiting factor in suspension travel, so unless you're cnsidering long travel/rally shocks (big $$$$) taller springs will exacerbate the problem even more.

 

An ALK can help control turn-in and wheel lift to some degree, but it's not worth considering until you've already upgraded the rest of the suspension.

[1 Lucky Texan]

^^^

 

stiffer but not taller springs are a really good upgrade - since you likely need shocks - do both at once.

 

spring upgrade gets better cornering AND less squat and dive.

[CNY_Dave]

All you need is a 200lb weight on a motorized track behind the front seats, and some way to have it automatically move to the inside of the turn...

[Twitch de la Brat]

You know, Dave, I've considered that. Hooking it to a potentiometer in the steering wheel and making it shift in the direction I'm turning.

 

On the more realistic side, I'm thinking a lift kit would help keep the front end planted a little more. I'm not sure if the struts have a more travel than the stock setup allows, or if I'll run into strut travel limitations.

Otherwise I'll just be getting a stiffer set of springs with my new struts.

 

https://www.rallitek.com/suspension-packages/6294-rallitek-14-rear-raised-overload-springs-kyb-excel-g-struts-assembled-outback-2005-2009.html

 

This is the kit I'm considering for a lift.

I'm not trying to make a monster, but I want something that's going to be more capable.

Also, I might be going the off-road route a little bit with this car, just because of cost and difficulty of lifting it are both fairly low.

The adjustable rear swaybar plays into this, as I'll be able to tweak it up and down for weekend playtime/camping and daily driver duties.

Now comes another question: Will lifting and new springs and suspension stop the tire lift, or will the lift counteract the stiffer suspension and still allow the front tire to lift?

 

Twitch

 

PS: The potential oversteer problem won't be, as I am trying to get a little more turn in on my entry with more rear swing to pull through the corner.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Twitch de la Brat

[bratman2]

If you are lifting or nearly lifting the in side front wheel wouldn't the Coopers be doing their job? I would think that is a sign that they are providing crap loads of grip under stress. 

[heartless]

You know, Dave, I've considered that. Hooking it to a potentiometer in the steering wheel and making it shift in the direction I'm turning.

 

On the more realistic side, I'm thinking a lift kit would help keep the front end planted a little more. I'm not sure if the struts have a more travel than the stock setup allows, or if I'll run into strut travel limitations.

Otherwise I'll just be getting a stiffer set of springs with my new struts.

 

https://www.rallitek.com/suspension-packages/6294-rallitek-14-rear-raised-overload-springs-kyb-excel-g-struts-assembled-outback-2005-2009.html

 

This is the kit I'm considering for a lift.

I'm not trying to make a monster, but I want something that's going to be more capable.

Also, I might be going the off-road route a little bit with this car, just because of cost and difficulty of lifting it are both fairly low.

The adjustable rear swaybar plays into this, as I'll be able to tweak it up and down for weekend playtime/camping and daily driver duties.

Now comes another question: Will lifting and new springs and suspension stop the tire lift, or will the lift counteract the stiffer suspension and still allow the front tire to lift?

 

Twitch

 

PS: The potential oversteer problem won't be, as I am trying to get a little more turn in on my entry with more rear swing to pull through the corner.

 

  Lifting the car is NOT going to help your issue - in fact, it would more likely make it WORSE...

[Twitch de la Brat]

If you are lifting or nearly lifting the in side front wheel wouldn't the Coopers be doing their job? I would think that is a sign that they are providing crap loads of grip under stress.

I'm not dissatisfied with the dry pavement grip, at all. Hell, my old tires provided enough grip to lift the front tire too. It's a lot of other issues that have cropped up with the tires. Like getting a flat spot when sitting for a few hours in 50f weather at any PSI under 35, incessant bead leaks, cost, dramatic loss of grip when shown anything put pavement, and the list continues. For $180 a tire, I'd expect better.

 

Anyway, Heartless, this isn't an old school block lift, it's a stiffened spring and small puck lift. It gets that last bit of strut length that the stock springs are too short for, and then a little bit more, with the puck.

Then the adjustable rear sway bar should also help control body roll.

 

The real issue will be raising the centr of gravity and how that will effect the car as a whole.

 

Twitch

Edited December 27, 2017 by Twitch de la Brat

[Fairtax4me]

his isn't an old school block lift, it's a stiffened spring and small puck lift. It gets that last bit of strut length that the stock springs are too short for, and then a little bit more, with the puck.

Then the adjustable rear sway bar should also help control body roll.

The stiff springs will cause more wheel lift by limiting the amount that the strut can travel down. You lose downward articulation with taller/stiffer springs. This means that the strut bottoms out sooner and then lifts the wheel off the ground.

Use Stock springs in the front, stiffer stock height springs in the rear.

1" lift blocks at the very most on top of the struts if you really want the lift. Anything more than an inch will get you cv axle problems.