Bad water pump or blown head gasket?

[jeryst]

1997 Impreza Outback Sport

2.2 with 216k miles. Automatic.

 

Symptoms: Slow loss of coolant. Cannot find any leaks.

Overheating when running in drive, but cools down when pulling back into third, and increasing RPM's.

No smoke of any kind from exhaust. Car does not overheat when idling for long periods of time.

No oil in coolant. No coolant in oil. The water pump was replaced about 5k miles ago along with timing belt components.

 

When up on the lift, we noticed a drop of coolant on the bottom of the water
pump, but cannot see it leaking when watching while car is running.

Cant hear any noise that would be indicative of a bad water pump.

The car is leaking oil, and it is believed to be either the crank seal, or a cam seal.

 

So here is my situation. The car itself is in pretty good shape, and runs well. If I can keep it running, that would be great, but
I am on a tight budget. Although the local garages will replace a water pump and timing belt kit, none of them will attempt replacing head gaskets.

Taking it to a regular Subaru dealer is not an option because I cant pay $1000-$2000 to get a head gasket replaced. If it is a head gasket, I
will try to sell the car for parts or junk it.

 

It will cost me about $350 to get the water pump and leaking seals replaced.

I cant afford to spend the $350 and then find out that the problem still exists because it was a head gasket all along.

In addition, the car needs tires for inspection ($300), so if I knew for sure that a head gasket is bad, I could put the $650 towards

another car.

 

Is there any definitive way to tell if I have a blown head gasket?

Is there any test to determine if the overheating is coming from the water pump or a blown head gasket?

[GeneralDisorder]

You need to perform a pressure test of the cooling system, and check the coolant for dissolved exhaust gasses. If coolant was seen outside of the engine then like as not you have a leak and that's it.

 

If, after fixing the leak (which, BTW, if it is the water pump, should run around $800 for a timing belt/water pump/reseal - done correctly by a Subaru specialist - this is an interference engine and things like cam support o-rings, cam seals, crank seal, idlers, tensioner, etc should all be replaced), it still has issues and no external leaks - you will need to replace the head gaskets.

 

Honestly with that mileage you are best off doing the head gaskets. Doing them the right way will cost about $2000 if you pay to have it done - more if you need radiator, hoses, and a clutch while it's out.

 

It can be done yourself, but sounds like you haven't the will to do so. It would require some investment in tools and help from the forum here but it's certainly not difficult.

 

GD

Edited December 30, 2017 by GeneralDisorder

[john in KY]

If the engine 5K miles ago was not overheating and not losing coolant and now is, I would suspect someone screwed up installing the new pump. 

 

 

"When up on the lift, we noticed a drop of coolant on the bottom of the water

pump, but cannot see it leaking when watching while car is running."

 

Could be caused by a hose clamp not tight enough.  

 

I won't spend thousands or even a thousand throwing parts at a 20-year old car. 

[GeneralDisorder]

EJ22's typically need head gaskets somewhere between 200k and 250k. Excellent maintenance may push that out but I had the best maintained 22 I've ever seen in for head gaskets at 286k. They wear out. Abuse makes them wear out faster. Simply the truth. But it's only a gasket. Not the end of the world nor should it be the end of the machine. I own the one that had them done at 286k now and it has 317k and still runs like new.

 

GD

[idosubaru]

1. Water pump replaced 5,000 miles ago - typical shop warranty is 12,000 miles - is it still under warranty? Take it back and have them look at it.

 

2. aftermarket water pump gaskets for those are cheap crap cardboard, they easiky leak.

 

What brand pump and gaskets were used? Water pumps faikure is rare though

 

with the recent pump replacement and seeing coolant dripping - Occam’s razor says that’s the likely leak point.

 

Id keep tracking that leak and see if you can pressure test it.

 

Those are the easiest Subaru headgaskets to replace. The headbolts are external.

[idosubaru]

The few 200,000+ mile Phase I EJ22s and EJ18s I’ve been involved with all have original headgaskets. I’ve never repaired one in a Phase I EJ18/EJ22

Edited December 31, 2017 by idosubaru

[GeneralDisorder]

Once they hit 200k, a good solid overheat will generally take out the gasket. And eventually they leak anyway. That's been my experience anyway. I've replaced a number up over 200k. Not very many below that.

 

GD

[hzimmerman1111]

I could get "kicked off this board" but I solved a 2001 OB EJ25 leaker 200K for about 2 years with Steel Seal product. For that product, you just pour it in and in my case it sealed the HG leak in about 10 minutes.   Later I did the right thing and did the engine HGs  [ maybe I get to stay on the board? ].  At the time I had no good place to work on the car and it got me over the hump. Steel Seal worked after others did not.   Obviously confirm if it is the HG, since EJ22 has a better record than the EJ25s.

[idosubaru]

good job glad that worked.

 

I could get "kicked off this board" but I solved a 2001 OB EJ25 leaker 200K for about 2 years with Steel Seal product..

Subaru *requires* an additive for that motor which has a nearly 100% success rate when used as intended. no one would be surprised that an engine routinely addressed with an additive was mitigated with an additive.

 

You won’t get kicked off the board but all the data presented may not be immediately considered 100% accurate either. people, even mechanics, misinterpret, assume, incorrectly see, misdiagnose or otherwise unintentionally relay data. chances of customer data being 100% accurate is low.

Edited January 2, 2018 by idosubaru

[1997reduxe]

Ive had 5 legacys from the 90s.
Sometimes theres a leak in the radiator. the one i have right now has one. On my present car you can actually see a drip coming out of the plastic or fitting where the top hose attaches, but in one of my past cars you didnt see it till it was night and a light was on the air around the engine and you could see the steam.
The short bypass L-shaped hose is a notorious culprit ffor me, once i had a radiator replaced when it was in fact the little hose.

The thing is iif you have leaked enough coolant out off the engine itself not just the radiator and tank, then even though you fill up the tank and it may suck some in there could still be air lefft in and it isnt cooling properly or spreading the heat around thus the sporadic cooling. But dont listen to me. These are just some ideas.

It has to be "burped" to really fill up the engine.

[1997reduxe]

Oh but theyre right about the gasket ffor the water pump and cost of water pump and quality.
I think on rockauto they were selling the aisin timing belt kit with stock oem wp that comes with sube for like 200 maybe 220, and it has the high quality oem belt and pulleys etc. check that out it comes with the good wp gasket and the good thermostat seal thats also a culprit.  i am ready to now do my t-belt kit replacement finally my mechanic only charges like 250, and i got a sube thermostat and racdiator cap to go with the denso radiator i got

O course thats only because my 95 runs great thats something id never give up invillingly ill keep it even as a backup

Edited January 3, 2018 by 1997reduxe

[Boxer Medic]

The only way I know to verify a head gasket leak into the cooling system with near 100% accuracy is with a exhaust gas analyzer.

 

If there are hydrocarbons in the cooling system, there is only one way they could get there.

[matt167]

Exhaust gas detection does not work well with most Subaru. They can pass and be bad