Valve clatter

[Cyama]

I recently replace the timing belt, water pump and changed the oil pump mouse gasket as a recent maintenance project. Before I did this the valves were clattering, but they still clatter after this work was done. The oil pressure is better, but still low especially at idle. When running at about 2000 rpm the oil psi sometimes runs over 45 psi and the clatter intermittently starts and stops. It also intermittently starts and stops at idle. The noise has become louder over the past few months. Are there any solutions?

[Ibreakstuff]

Did you replace the shaft seal on the oil pump as well? (can be a source of air suckage too) What type of oil pressures are you seeing on cold startup and at warm idle?

 

It is HLA tick most likely, common annoyance on the ea82's. If you are making 10PSI oil pressure for every 1000RPM, everything *should* be fine. But do realize the pressure gauges on the ea82's can be inaccurate, usually reading a bit low. And it is also reading at the pump and not at the heads.

 

I have had success with seafoam, doing top end treatments and adding a bit of marvel mystery like 100 miles *before* doing an oil change. This can free up gunked up oil supply to the HLA's, as well as the HLA's themselves. If you can isolate the noise to a single bank or HLA it might help the diagnosis as well. HLA's can go bad as well, baddies never pump up and will clackey clack endlessly.


I use google for searching the forum, like so: site:ultimatesubaru.org ea82 hla tick

[DaveT]

There is at least 1 regular o ring involved with rebuilding the oil pump, in addition to the shaft seal, and the micky mouse one.

[Cyama]

When I replaced the oil pump gasket, I also replaced the shaft seal and other o rings that came with the kit. At cold startup, the gauge is reading about 50. When the temp rises, the oil still barely reads above 0. The clatter sometimes happens at idle but not always.  Sometimes I hear it when the car is running about 1500 rpm and the oil pressure is at 45. It may clatter at higher speeds, but its difficult to hear with the engine winding up and other road noise. It seems to clatter and then stops. It is sporadic when it starts and stops, but I have noticed it getting louder over the past year of running the car. Other than that, the engine has been running smooth. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Cyama

[idosubaru]

the low oil pressure reading is likely no big deal - they do that all the time and it's even been mentioned by Subaru/in the owners manual years/decades ago.  it's "normal".  whether it's the gauges are lazy, inaccurate, or there's plenty of volume even with no pressure, i'm not sure but when warm at idle they frequently show low on the dash gauge.

 

If you're concerned read it with a real gauge to have an idea what's happening. 

 

1.  one shaft seal, one mickey mouse gasket, and one oring.  those three things need replaced.  FSM also calls for a dab of RTV at the 12 and 6 oclock positions where the case halves meet. 

 

2.  if resealing the pump doesn't fix it then you need to install a new oil pump.  unfortunately they're not available new any more from Subaru. 

This has fixed every HLA tapping EA/ER engine i've encountered and others have the same experience as well, this is the next step. 

 

There is a spring in the oil pump and one under each valve cover - I've always wondered if those can need cleaned, replaced, or shimmed, but i've never done it or have heard anyone talk about it in a quarter century....

[Gloyale]

o-rings where the cam carrier meets the head.

[DaveT]

Yep, those o rings could contribute. By now, if they are original, they aren't very good. Need to use the metal re enforced kind, not plain o rings.

 

Oil pressure at idle with a warm engine is near zero. Really around 5 psi, but the dash gauge doesn't read low numbers accurately.

 

I run Amsoil 10w synthetic. With their filters. Not sure if this had much to do with it, but I don't have much trouble with the ticking.

 

I've resealed a few ea82s, and it takes a while before the tick stays away. But a year, hmmm. Should be pretty much gone by now.

[Cyama]

Those O rings on the cam carrier. Does that job require the entire timing belt disassembly, or can it get them from the valve covers? 

[DaveT]

Those o rings, you remove the timing belts, the valve covers, the cam towers.  they are in between the heads and the cam towers.

[idosubaru]

Those O rings on the cam carrier. Does that job require the entire timing belt disassembly, or can it get them from the valve covers? 

 

Way more labor than timing belt, that's the easy part - valve covers, cam towers, all your rockers fall to the ground and tons of cleaning and careful sealant placement and install to reseal it, then reverse everything for reassembly. 

[Cyama]

While I'm inside the cam towers, should I replace any other parts while I'm there?

[idosubaru]

I’d install rebuilt HLAs from mizpah they’re only a few bucks each.

 

These I wouldn’t know if these are necessary but I replace the clip on oil feed gaskets if you can find them and it has them. XT6 has them in every port but I think some EA82s don’t have all the circular ones but just the longer oval one.

 

Are you not going to attempt the pump because you can’t find any available? They fix ticking all the time, ive never needed to replace the cam tower orings for ticking. See the HLA thread about it where person after person says the same thing. But then again I don’t see these things much now that they’re all rusted away and I never see any but my own so the gaskets are 10 years older than when I was seeing these more often in the past.

[Gloyale]

I’d install rebuilt HLAs from mizpah they’re only a few bucks each.

 

These I wouldn’t know if these are necessary but I replace the clip on oil feed gaskets if you can find them and it has them. XT6 has them in every port but I think some EA82s don’t have all the circular ones but just the longer oval one.

 

Are you not going to attempt the pump because you can’t find any available? They fix ticking all the time, ive never needed to replace the cam tower orings for ticking. See the HLA thread about it where person after person says the same thing. But then again I don’t see these things much now that they’re all rusted away and I never see any but my own so the gaskets are 10 years older than when I was seeing these more often in the past.

 

No clips, rings or seals on the cam tower except the main oil port O-ring on EA82.  Only on the ER27

 

Some folks have smeared a very thin, and I mean very thin, layer of RTV on the 2 spots where the oil crosses over and into the pressure relief valve. (2 oval ports in the middle)

[idosubaru]

Do you know why the ER has those clip on and the EA82 does not? Seems like those mating surfaces either leak or they don’t.

 

Would installing them on an EA improve oil retention in the oil passages?

[Cyama]

I would try replacing the oil pump, but since they aren't available, and the gasket replacement seemed to increase my oil pressure, I'm thinking it's something in the head. 

[el_freddo]

Another trick I used to use was a 3mm spacer behind the oil pressure relief valve in the oil pump. While there it's a good idea to clean out any crud that's built up in the relief valve as this may not be creating a solid seal.

 

Another thing to check is the same setup in the heads at the cams. From memory there's a brass looking nut that has a ball and spring behind it. Clean this up to ensure a good seal. I believe this pressure relief is to release oil after everything is pressurised (bin luring the HLAs, this oil is then dropped over the cam runners IIRC.

 

Sounds stupid, but chasing the lifter tick in the EA82 is one of the big reasons why I went EJ - and have never looked back.

 

Cheers

 

Bennie

[Gloyale]

Do you know why the ER has those clip on and the EA82 does not? Seems like those mating surfaces either leak or they don’t.

 

Would installing them on an EA improve oil retention in the oil passages?

you would have to machine the mating surface for the added thickness as in the EA82 it's a zero clearance situation where the ER27 allows room for the thickness of the rubberized metal clips.

[montermahan]

Replacing HLA's only thing that worked for me.

[Cyama]

Another trick I used to use was a 3mm spacer behind the oil pressure relief valve in the oil pump. While there it's a good idea to clean out any crud that's built up in the relief valve as this may not be creating a solid seal.

 

Another thing to check is the same setup in the heads at the cams. From memory there's a brass looking nut that has a ball and spring behind it. Clean this up to ensure a good seal. I believe this pressure relief is to release oil after everything is pressurised (bin luring the HLAs, this oil is then dropped over the cam runners IIRC.

 

Sounds stupid, but chasing the lifter tick in the EA82 is one of the big reasons why I went EJ - and have never looked back.

 

Cheers

 

Bennie

Thank you for all of your help!  BTW, when you say you went EJ, does this mean you swapped an EJ motor?  IF you did this, what is the best donor car to perform this swap?  

[Len Dawg]

I love my ticks!! All 298,174 miles of them !! I've replaced a lot of everything still ticks ???????????????????? for the love of tick!

Edited April 16, 2018 by Len Dawg

[jono]

Face it, HVLA's are a service item. Last time I talked to Phil at Mizpah he needs your parts to reco as no spare cores in stock, so you need to be off the road while these things in transit. New HVLA's can also help magnify weak valve springs problems if you have like I did. Once I installed new HVLA's and new genuine valve springs I had the sweetest running EA82T

[wagons]

There's 3 ea82 na cars at my local yard. I might have to go get all 3 sets of lifters to help out our community. I had replace mine with mizpah recently. Got rid of my ticket.

[el_freddo]

Thank you for all of your help!  BTW, when you say you went EJ, does this mean you swapped an EJ motor?  IF you did this, what is the best donor car to perform this swap?  

Correct. There are many conversions on the forum. Most typical one is the ej22 from the gen1 or gen2 liberty.

 

If you go this way try and get a good running car as you'll have all the important bits to make sure you can get your car running with the EJ.

 

It's a lot of work for just getting rid of the lifter tick though. And to do this conversion reliably you should put in some engine maintenance too.

 

Cheers

 

Bennie

[Cyama]

Correct. There are many conversions on the forum. Most typical one is the ej22 from the gen1 or gen2 liberty.

 

If you go this way try and get a good running car as you'll have all the important bits to make sure you can get your car running with the EJ.

 

It's a lot of work for just getting rid of the lifter tick though. And to do this conversion reliably you should put in some engine maintenance too.

 

Cheers

 

Bennie

Thanks Bennie. I agree, it's alot of work to take care of the tick. I love the car, but for long term driveability the low hp is hard to accept.  I'm at 5000 ft altitude and climbing the mountain to 8800 is tough on it and the line of people behind me. If I could get another 20 horses, I think it would be a pretty good car.  Its great to get a few thumbs up from old school skiers.   

[djellum]

Theres a ton of EJ motors that will fit.  best options would be one of the earlier lower horsepower ones.  im sure there are hundreds of people who ran or run higher output motors on the stock running gear but I wouldnt trust the strength.  EJ18 that I have is 118 horsepower, 2.2's have a range of HP's generally between  125 and 165.  id stick with ej18 or ej22 in the lower HP ranges but ive seen lots of people running 2.5's.

 

theres a whole lot of ej swap stuff here if you search for it.

 

stock your car is between 80-100 hp depending on year and options.