pontoontodd Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 I need to replace the manual transmission in my 1999 Legacy Outback (again, long story). There are a few transmissions with under 100k miles on them a few states away for $600-700. According to Wikipedia the 2012+ non turbo 5MT also has a 4.11 final drive, similar first, and taller fifth gear which would be nice. Cars101 also says 12+ Imprezas have these ratios. 12-16 Impreza manuals seem to be all over for $500-800 with under 30k miles (even under 3k!) on them. Is the shifter, clutch, speed sensor, bellhousing, trans mount, driveshaft, axles, etc the same as my 1999? The ones I have seen pictures of (12-16 Impreza) have no axle stubs, would I need 12-16 front CV axles and would those fit my front hubs? Not worried about ABS, that's long gone on my car. I have plenty of axle stubs for the older 5MTs and at least one pair for a 4EAT, would those work? Car-part.com shows 12/13 do not interchange with 14-16, what is the difference? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch de la Brat Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 An easier option would be an older 5 speed from first gen Legacies. A little research can net you a decent mileage transmission with the right gear ratio, and no axle swapping required. I got a 4.111 geared 5sp from a 94 Legacy, for my old 90 Lego auto swap. Also, the 6 bolt vs 4 bolt bellhousing isn't an issue for your transmission, just skip the middle two bolts. Twitch PS: Axle lengths will be the bane of your existence with the newer transmission type. Trying to match that could be quite the headache. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 An easier option would be an older 5 speed from first gen Legacies. A little research can net you a decent mileage transmission with the right gear ratio, and no axle swapping required. I got a 4.111 geared 5sp from a 94 Legacy, for my old 90 Lego auto swap. Also, the 6 bolt vs 4 bolt bellhousing isn't an issue for your transmission, just skip the middle two bolts. Twitch PS: Axle lengths will be the bane of your existence with the newer transmission type. Trying to match that could be quite the headache. I was thinking it would be great to get one with thousands of miles and a couple years on it rather than hundreds of thousands of miles and decades on it. I've broken at least four 5MTs in this car so far. Over the winter I plan on doing a 6MT/R180 swap but I'm hoping a nearly new 5MT will last this summer. I was wondering about the axles. I take it the earlier ('99) axle stubs wouldn't just plug into the newer ('12+) transmission? Worst case I could probably swap the front diff but then I have an old front diff and it's a lot more work. Other than the CV axles do you know if the driveshaft and speed sensor are the same on the '99 and '12+? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch de la Brat Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 So, I was doing some reading, and there's a possibility that you could get the stub shafts from a 4EAT to plug into the axle holes and then hook your axles onto those. If the transmission width is close enough with the stubs plugged in, then you'll just have to make sure to find a transmission with a mechanical center diff (they switched to a multiplate clutch system on the newest manuals) and then a wiring diagram to make an adapter to plug your wiring harness into. Twitch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 So, I was doing some reading, and there's a possibility that you could get the stub shafts from a 4EAT to plug into the axle holes and then hook your axles onto those. If the transmission width is close enough with the stubs plugged in, then you'll just have to make sure to find a transmission with a mechanical center diff (they switched to a multiplate clutch system on the newest manuals) and then a wiring diagram to make an adapter to plug your wiring harness into. Twitch Where were you doing this reading? There are a ton of these late model transmissions around, maybe I'll drive to the nearest yard with one and see if my 4EAT stubs plug in, if the driveshaft fits, etc. I can't imagine the transmission width is much different if at all. They look identical to the older 5MTs in pictures. Do you mean they switched from a viscous / bevel gear center diff to a clutch like the automatics? Do you know when? Could I just rig up a toggle switch to lock the center diff? Would it only drive the front wheels or all four unlocked? I think on at least one I saw the same plugs for neutral and reverse as mine (not that I really need those). Still wondering what if any difference there is in the speed sensor. I would be tempted to try one of the new six speeds too but they definitely have a different shifter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86BRATMAN Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Easiest way to convert the newer transmissions to stub axle is to use the stubs and seals from an 04 sti 6mt. Last I checked you could buy then from the dealer for around $100. The bigger issue with the newer transmissions is they don't have an internal vss, the canbus cars use the abs sensors to drive the speedometer and send signal to the ecu. You could need to either split the case and install the drive gear assembly for the speedo or run an abs speed converter like the vsspro. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 Easiest way to convert the newer transmissions to stub axle is to use the stubs and seals from an 04 sti 6mt. Last I checked you could buy then from the dealer for around $100. The bigger issue with the newer transmissions is they don't have an internal vss, the canbus cars use the abs sensors to drive the speedometer and send signal to the ecu. You could need to either split the case and install the drive gear assembly for the speedo or run an abs speed converter like the vsspro. Thank you very much! Do you know if 4EAT stubs will work? I have a pair of those. Looks like the 04 STI 6MT stubs are $44 each on subarupartwholesale (38415AA110). My '99 axles should fit on those? I didn't see a VSS in the pictures of the '12+ transmissions. It looks like there is a hole in the side of the case, it's tempting to split the case and put in a sender. One of my '99 VSS senders should fit? The shaft in the newer trans still has the spiral gear to drive it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86BRATMAN Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I don't believe the 4eat stubs will work, it's been a while since I looked into at particular conversion. Last couple 05+ transmissions I've swapped into older chassis I've just used matching newer axles. The spiral gear is still on the gearset of the trans. You'll have to install the shaft, driven gear, and seal from your existing trans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) I'll start looking things up as I have time here at work. 02-06 AT (I think just 4EAT, but the catalog is not super specific without a VIN) and 04 STi use the same stub axle (38415AA110) From the 2012 Impreza FSM, 2016 Impreza same (Crosstrek has 4.444, and lower 1st and 5th). gears, 3.454, 1.888, 1.296, 0.972, 0.738. R 3.333 Front 4.111, 1:1 transfer, rear 4.111 No axle or driveshaft spline counts listed.... Edited March 28, 2018 by Numbchux 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 I don't believe the 4eat stubs will work, it's been a while since I looked into at particular conversion. Last couple 05+ transmissions I've swapped into older chassis I've just used matching newer axles. The spiral gear is still on the gearset of the trans. You'll have to install the shaft, driven gear, and seal from your existing trans. I might just get the front CV axles if they have them. Just to be clear you're talking about this shaft and gear right? I've got a few of those... Do you know if/when they went to the clutch pack for the center diff? Or what changed in 2014? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 I'll start looking things up as I have time here at work. 02-06 AT (I think just 4EAT, but the catalog is not super specific without a VIN) and 04 STi use the same stub axle (38415AA110) From the 2012 Impreza FSM, 2016 Impreza same (Crosstrek has 4.444, and lower 1st and 5th). gears, 3.454, 1.888, 1.296, 0.972, 0.738. R 3.333 Front 4.111, 1:1 transfer, rear 4.111 No axle or driveshaft spline counts listed.... Can you tell what the difference is between the 38415AA110 (2002-2004 Outback) and 38415AA070 (2000-2002 Outback)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 There's a mid-year split in 2012 for clutch parts, but the input shaft did not change back to the beginning of 2012MY. Early clutch disc fits back to 2003, so the spline count should be the same. Clutch lever is the same back to the '90s, push-style I've never seen, transfer clutches in a manual. I just checked all the Impreza diagrams, and they all use a regular center diff. I was under the impression that the phase 2 cases changed, and no longer had the boss for the old-style speed sensor. But I'll search that more in a minute 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Can you tell what the difference is between the 38415AA110 (2002-2004 Outback) and 38415AA070 (2000-2002 Outback)? I can't, the AA070 supersedes back to the begninning of the 4EAT. They use the same circlip, but the side gear in the front differential changed at the same time, so it's possible they have a different spline count. The newer side gear (38423AA120, older 38423AA040) is the same up until current, though. I know that the spline count between the older 4EAT, and manual is the same, pretty sure it was 25 spline. Looking at the aftermarket listings, the inner splines are also 25. So it might be interchangeable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) I was under the impression that the phase 2 cases changed, and no longer had the boss for the old-style speed sensor. But I'll search that more in a minute Well, I was certainly not correct on this, there's speedometer parts and even a note for the transmission case about having that hole until about 2006. Of course, none of that applies to the 12-16. I did a considerable search in the 12 Impreza FSM, and I cannot find a VSS listed anywhere. With the CAN system, it's hard to trace where the cluster gets the signal from, but the only speed sensors I can find are the 4 ABS/VDC wheel speed sensors The spiral for the speedometer gear is on the 3-4 gearset, so it might be possible to swap that and the case....but there are a lot more variables with that. Edited March 28, 2018 by Numbchux 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86BRATMAN Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I was under the impression that the phase 2 cases changed, and no longer had the boss for the old-style speed sensor. But I'll search that more in a minute The only manual transmissions I've seen without the threading provision is the split case 6mt. Every newer 5mt I've seen has came with a plug in the case where the vss would go. It's clearly visible here, http://sspparts.com/buy-used/2013-Subaru-IMPREZA-TRANSMISSION-MT-P-TY758V45AA/13561-1?g=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-uzVBRDkARIsALkZAdnRkebR5EQKBiPlPkByyMT9FVUlqG_ZmR6NHQkkgdjFt1ztGGnmnlUaAsQWEALw_wcB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86BRATMAN Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Subaru used the transmission mounted vss in the manual transmission until 04 in the legacy, 07 in the impreza, and 08 in the forester. Everything newer has the hole, plugged with no driven gear or shaft. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Subaru used the transmission mounted vss in the manual transmission until 04 in the legacy, 07 in the impreza, and 08 in the forester. Everything newer has the hole, plugged with no driven gear or shaft. Yep, I just walked out in the shop. We have manual transmissions out of a 10 forester, 08 Impreza, and 17 WRX. No surprise the cable-shifted 6-speed from the 17 WRX is different. But yep, the plug was there for the Impreza and Forester. We also have a 4EAT for a 10 Forester, that one doesn't have the casting. That must be what I was thinking of, sorry. Of course, of all of those, we don't have a 12-16 Impreza one out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86BRATMAN Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 The 4eat is most likely what got you confused, the phase 2 variants of them have no gear driven vss. The non canbus phase 2 speedometers are driven by the tcu. There have been a lot of changes over the years with these cars so it's easy for some details to get muddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86BRATMAN Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Before I forget, due to track width differences you may not be able to use 08+ impreza axles. The ones I know will work for this transmission swap are from the 05-07 impreza/wrx WAGON as they share the same track width as the 95-99 legacy/outback. You will have to knock the abs tone ring off the axle to be able to install it into your hubs, after that everything is business as usual. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 There's a mid-year split in 2012 for clutch parts, but the input shaft did not change back to the beginning of 2012MY. Early clutch disc fits back to 2003, so the spline count should be the same. Clutch lever is the same back to the '90s, push-style I've never seen, transfer clutches in a manual. I just checked all the Impreza diagrams, and they all use a regular center diff. I was under the impression that the phase 2 cases changed, and no longer had the boss for the old-style speed sensor. But I'll search that more in a minute Thanks for checking input shaft, didn't consider clutch spline changing. Ya, fork, slave and release bearing look the same as the older 5MTs. Also checked online and yes, it looks like the 12+ Impreza 5MT just has a normal center diff. I can't, the AA070 supersedes back to the begninning of the 4EAT. They use the same circlip, but the side gear in the front differential changed at the same time, so it's possible they have a different spline count. The newer side gear (38423AA120, older 38423AA040) is the same up until current, though. I know that the spline count between the older 4EAT, and manual is the same, pretty sure it was 25 spline. Looking at the aftermarket listings, the inner splines are also 25. So it might be interchangeable. The 4EAT stub I checked is 25 teeth. It was out of a 2002. I could probably find the VIN but it would take a while. Yep, I just walked out in the shop. We have manual transmissions out of a 10 forester, 08 Impreza, and 17 WRX. No surprise the cable-shifted 6-speed from the 17 WRX is different. But yep, the plug was there for the Impreza and Forester. We also have a 4EAT for a 10 Forester, that one doesn't have the casting. That must be what I was thinking of, sorry. Of course, of all of those, we don't have a 12-16 Impreza one out. How easy are those plugs to remove? Any chance you can see in the hole to check that the shaft has that spiral cut on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 The only manual transmissions I've seen without the threading provision is the split case 6mt. Every newer 5mt I've seen has came with a plug in the case where the vss would go. It's clearly visible here, http://sspparts.com/buy-used/2013-Subaru-IMPREZA-TRANSMISSION-MT-P-TY758V45AA/13561-1?g=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw-uzVBRDkARIsALkZAdnRkebR5EQKBiPlPkByyMT9FVUlqG_ZmR6NHQkkgdjFt1ztGGnmnlUaAsQWEALw_wcB Those are some good pictures. Thought that's what I had seen on car-part but these are much clearer. Before I forget, due to track width differences you may not be able to use 08+ impreza axles. The ones I know will work for this transmission swap are from the 05-07 impreza/wrx WAGON as they share the same track width as the 95-99 legacy/outback. You will have to knock the abs tone ring off the axle to be able to install it into your hubs, after that everything is business as usual. What is the track width difference? Figure I could just put stubs in it and use my CV axles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 How easy are those plugs to remove? Any chance you can see in the hole to check that the shaft has that spiral cut on it? Meh, looks like an allen key and a socket would thread right out. But I'm hesitant to do it on a customer transmission that's just out for a clutch job. I punched the VIN on the 10 forester, and crossed the part number for the 3-4 gearset, and it was used back to 2004. So I assume it is cut for that. But the 12 Impreza number was not used on older cars, so it could go either way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoontodd Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 Meh, looks like an allen key and a socket would thread right out. But I'm hesitant to do it on a customer transmission that's just out for a clutch job. I punched the VIN on the 10 forester, and crossed the part number for the 3-4 gearset, and it was used back to 2004. So I assume it is cut for that. But the 12 Impreza number was not used on older cars, so it could go either way. Could you tell me the allen / socket size so I can take it out at the yard? The 3-4 gearset part number for the '12 and '15 Impreza is the same and goes back to 2005 in Legacy/Outback turbo. The 2005 Legacy turbo just shows a plug and gasket (washer) for the speedo. This is the picture they have for that 3-4 gearset: argh!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86BRATMAN Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 It's either a 6 or 8mm hex I can't remember for sure, you might be able to find the exact size online. There are a few write ups floating around on installing the speedo gear stuff in the 05-09 LGT transmissions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86BRATMAN Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 The talk of axles is because you mentioned possibly getting the axles with the transmission above. I just wanted you to be aware that wouldn't really work out. I should have quoted you, this thread has had quite a bit discussed in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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