Brake job mess

[ThosL]

I contacted a garage I have done business in the past that is trying to get back on their feet after the manager had a medical issue.

 

He said to come down yesterday which I did then the mechanic was out of commission; he said come back today which I did. I waited around a while, walked downtown to the library; when I came back they had some bad news: the caliper slide pin had broken off when the guy tried to remove it.  So they tried using a torch to get it out etc..  I ended up just asking them to put it back together, the reason for the job was replacing the rotor which was scored up.  

 

Quick question; does having just one good bolt holding the caliper in, impair the braking in a dangerous way?  At any rate I drove around to get the parts I needed and did the job myself; replacing the caliper bracket, and the rotor and pads.

 

The question is, I had just asked him to get the bolts holding the caliper and rotor in, which are a challenge if they have not been changed out; do I owe him much for not doing the job right?  Wouldn't a competent mechanic notice slide pins or frozen bolts or whatever led to this snafu, not force them so they break off?

[Fairtax4me]

Could have been a new hire that was in an intern or apprentice?

Slide bolts break, you pull the caliper off and replace the bracket. The bracket has to come off to remove the rotor anyway.

 

Pads, rotors (are both scored/rusted?) caliper bracket and/possibly rebuilt caliper. Swap it quickly and you only need to bleed the one caliper.

 

Braking ability won't be impaired, until the caliper decides to flip out and hang against the inner diameter of your wheel. Then you might lose the caliper, and the wheel.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Fairtax4me

[idosubaru]

They didn’t do anything, you don’t owe anything. At least from what little we know - we didn’t see or hear the agreement or job being done. Did they charge you? What shop let’s you leave and not pay?

 

It is possible to get away with one bolt but I don’t recommend it for all but emergency situations and I can’t say anything about *that* exact bolt or pin or caliper since I haven’t seen it and it’s clearly been abused.

 

Moving forward - use high quality caliper pin grease like Sil Glyde and not that generic permatex you’re probably using, that

stuff is really low grade, in the northeast anyway., replace any pin boots and check them every time you rotate tires. If the clips are bent or corroded or have dust build up, replace them. You’ll never have this happen again and never need to work on brakes again except pads and fluid. The rotors will last the life of he vehicle unless you drive it in saltwater and let it sit 8 months.

 

There is no answer to your question about what could or should have been with the mechanic. it’s hypothetical and Rusted to $&*^’!&%^! fasteners fail all the time. Could it have been removed - probably. Is anyone in rust states shocked if it sheared off - not at all.

 

1. Its a 2 decade old northeast rust bucket.

 

2. this vehicle hasn’t seen impeccable maintainenance - crap brake pin grease and/or maintenance, crap brake pad and rotor attention. Whoever did previous jobs or rotated tires doesn’t pay attention. Change your mechanic or whoever rotates/does your tires. It takes 30 seconds to check pins. I do it every time I pull the tires just about.

 

3. You presumably took it to a cheap shop - “You get what you pay for”. Go somewhere that knows what they’re doing or DIY. I only work on cars for free - that’s my rule - so if that saying is true a lot of people are getting questionable work.

 

Sure - maybe the mechanic screwed up.

 

But - I’m going to be hard pressed to blame a mechanic (or anyone) on rusty, terrible condition, poorly maintained brakes that I’ve never seen, that would be delusional.

 

And who knows - maybe someone previously mangled the rust pins before.

Edited March 30, 2018 by idosubaru

[ThosL]

I'd accept reasonable blame on this 97 Outback, too much neglect as pointed out here, but I was able to get it taken care of with the caliper bracket with the new hardware.  Heck, I put in a brake pad a week or so backwards, so it was metal on metal, I thought it was just the pad seating in....

 

Frank who ran the shop is finally off cigarettes which was the cause of the 2 month hospital stay, older Italian guy, has done good work for me before. And yest the rust especially in the northeast is a problem, the Japanese don't allow vehicles over 10 years on their roads.  He said drop off some green cash when I'm in his neighborhood again.  

[idosubaru]

Again we didn’t hear the agreement or know the contact at all but from what you’ve said so far you don’t owe them anything.

 

That said, I will pay someone more than they charge or eat costs if I respect them, do business with them before and will later. If it’s a good relationship who cares about a few bucks here and there?

[1 Lucky Texan]

^^^ good post

 

 

it has to be tough working on old, rusted, or beat-up gear. But experienced pros should be able to take that into account on the estimate.

 

I might pay for the new part. But they can chalk the labor up to a learning experience.

[idosubaru]

I might pay for the new part. But they can chalk the labor up to a learning experience.

 

+1 i missed the parts side of the equation.  pay for parts, no way i'd let a shop eat parts in a situation like this.

[Gloyale]

This probably won't be a popular opinion, but here it is from a shop owners perspective.......

 

Broken stuff happens.  Especially in the northeast.  That's not the shops fault.

 

I would not have put the car back together with just one bolt.

 

I would have made you leave the car.  I would have sourced the correct parts, finished the job, and billed you accordingly.

 

If I touch it with a wrench, you owe me money.  And the car doesn't leave my shop until the job is done fully and I receive payment.  You don't pay, I put a lien on your car.

 

That's why everyone signs a service agreement.

 

If you had left and caused an accident with you're broken brakes, the mechanic would be liable.  He's foolish for letting you take the car like that.  You are foolish for driving it like that.

 

You should have let the shop finish the job.  As it is, sounds like you're car made a pain in their as for several hours and then didn't give them any money for there work or let them finish the job.

[idosubaru]

This probably won't be a popular opinion, but here it is from a shop owners perspective.......

i agree, no way i'd blame the shop.  popular is often wrong and people need to hear from shop owners on stuff like this.

 

if he influenced taking the car because he didn't want to pay more - then yeah he owes.  you can't "only pay labor if it ends up being cheap" - that's not how it works.

 

if the shop waved the white flag and put their hands up and didn't want to fix it then labor costs seems a little murkier.  the unwritten expectations of cheap easy labor/job are confusing and we have no idea what actually transpired verbally, parts wise, or work wise.

[ThosL]

I'd just asked Frank to install the rotor, I said I couldn't get the bolts off.  He was having a non-mechanic work on it, a mechanic probably would have caught the frozen slide pin, not forced it/broke it.  

 

Frank had said I should be able to do it, but he said he would be able to do it for me in a half hour, etc.. 

 

On the mechanics not being liable for damages when they break things, and then upping the ante if the customer complains with legal liens if they don't comply; the customer can always go over the shop's head and should with state agencies, filing complaints with relevant authorities.  One unhappy customer can cause a lot of headaches, why issues should be addressed man to man without the need to resort to the law which ends up being a lot more expensive for all concerned.

Edited March 31, 2018 by ThosL

[ThosL]

I did the driver's side rotor today; noticed the caliper bracket also has a non-sliding pin.  These cost around $30 for the bracket, and then slide pins, are around $10.  If the caliper is good no reason to change out on high mileage vehicles.  I have no idea why a mechanic (or wannabe) would force slide pins, breaking them, unless they were trying to prove one of Murphy's laws.

[1 Lucky Texan]

could someone have grabbed the wrong rims or tried to mount rims that were too small?

[msmithmmx]

I live in the Norteast. 
I know rust. I can't wrap my head around how a pin snaps without applying
more  pressure then is normal.  This is my opinion as a customer.  I think they should have stopped the work at
the point were normal pressure was not working to let you make the call that new
parts would be needed due to the condition of the existing parts.

[CNY_Dave]

"He was having a non-mechanic work on it"

 

yikes

[rocketman]

Its so bad where I am near Canada in the salt belt,I had to throw away bushings and tensioners,to keep from seizeing, and lots of grease.

[ThosL]

The local snow crews are using non-caustic melts as far as I know.  But old rust remains a problem.  

[Gloyale]

I'd just asked Frank to install the rotor, I said I couldn't get the bolts off.  He was having a non-mechanic work on it, a mechanic probably would have caught the frozen slide pin, not forced it/broke it.  

 

Frank had said I should be able to do it, but he said he would be able to do it for me in a half hour, etc.. 

 

On the mechanics not being liable for damages when they break things, and then upping the ante if the customer complains with legal liens if they don't comply; the customer can always go over the shop's head and should with state agencies, filing complaints with relevant authorities.  One unhappy customer can cause a lot of headaches, why issues should be addressed man to man without the need to resort to the law which ends up being a lot more expensive for all concerned.

 

And those state agencies would be 100% on the shops side here.  You contracted work, and then refused to pay.  Theft of services.  

 

Things break. Especially in rust belt.  I worked in Wisconsin for 5 years, and had more trouble with brakes than any other system there.   Now if you took the car in for a brakes, and they break something unrelated, that's not the customers liability.  But if something breaks in the course of needed work and because of rust, that's just how it goes.

 

That being said if I make a legitimate mistake...I make it right.  I misdiagnosed a wheel bearing recently.  Car was rumbling, but no wheels had play.  I replaced a front bearing.....turned out it was a rear that needed done.  I did the work, and ate the cost of the second bearing.  Like an honest person to person business person would do. (notice the lack of macho John Waynism in that statement)  But that is up to the Shop to decide.  

 

I don't think a broken slide pin is grossly negligent.....it happens. It happened to me in wisconsin.   If it had happened in my shop I might cover the cost of the bracket/pin replacement. But you'd still pay the labor. I probably would have a caliper bracket used around.  But no way in hell would I put toghether a car with faulty brakes and send it out without getting paid for labor that was performed.

 

If you think it was gonna be so easy do it yourself.  But YOU don't get to decide to not pay after the shop has done work.  Again, this is why everyone signs a service agreement before any work is done.  THAT IS THE LAW.  

 

Also I would never ever work on your car again if you tried to pull this crap.  Hope Frank is smart enough to send you packin next time you show up in need.

[ThosL]

And those state agencies would be 100% on the shops side here.  You contracted work, and then refused to pay.  Theft of services.  

 

Things break. Especially in rust belt.  I worked in Wisconsin for 5 years, and had more trouble with brakes than any other system there.   Now if you took the car in for a brakes, and they break something unrelated, that's not the customers liability.  But if something breaks in the course of needed work and because of rust, that's just how it goes.

 

That being said if I make a legitimate mistake...I make it right.  I misdiagnosed a wheel bearing recently.  Car was rumbling, but no wheels had play.  I replaced a front bearing.....turned out it was a rear that needed done.  I did the work, and ate the cost of the second bearing.  Like an honest person to person business person would do. (notice the lack of macho John Waynism in that statement)  But that is up to the Shop to decide.  

 

I don't think a broken slide pin is grossly negligent.....it happens. It happened to me in wisconsin.   If it had happened in my shop I might cover the cost of the bracket/pin replacement. But you'd still pay the labor. I probably would have a caliper bracket used around.  But no way in hell would I put toghether a car with faulty brakes and send it out without getting paid for labor that was performed.

 

If you think it was gonna be so easy do it yourself.  But YOU don't get to decide to not pay after the shop has done work.  Again, this is why everyone signs a service agreement before any work is done.  THAT IS THE LAW.  

 

Also I would never ever work on your car again if you tried to pull this crap.  Hope Frank is smart enough to send you packin next time you show up in need.

 

There is a lot of hatred and hostility in your statements.  I don't know why you are looking for a fight.  Liver complaint, just an overbearing control freak mentality?  If the facts were lined up properly on the case the state would consider the shop to be at fault for having an inexperienced helper working on vehicles.  All that was required was to have the rotor brackets loosened, and if the pins are frozen the best option could be replacing the brackets and putting in slide pins/grease, etc..  Easy job, he said it was a half hour job but his guy bungled it.  I had been told he'd do it the day before, stood around for quite a while and he said his mechanic wasn't going to be back; next day I come and he has a helper work on it breaking parts...If I can do this quickly as it turned out any idiot can.  There  is no good reason to break parts.  

[idosubaru]

GLoyales point isn’t hostility. yes people are going to look at *all* the facts not just the ones that favor you. That’s not hostile it’s reality. There’s two sides to this story we’re looking at both.

 

The facts are:

 

We will never know if the fastener would have also broke with someone else doing it. That the others did not break is immaterial, as they are not the exact same bolt. On northeast cars its common for one fastener to break and not the others. mechanical facts here are indeterminate.

 

You admitted to trying to help someone get on their feet after a “downtime”. They can’t complete an easy brake they started.

 

A. “Helping” Would be moving on, communicating well with the owner, and learning from your mistakes and hoping and asking they do the same.

 

B. Doesn’t sound like a fully equipped real shop or business transaction. I highly doubt this would surprise most people. post a picture of their location and business name address and current info.

 

C. expecting dealer services for six pack pay. How much was he going to charge - what was the agreed upon rate before the job started?

 

D. Brakes are let go, rotor ruined on an old rusty northeast car and breaks a fastener. that’s so common it’s not enough to condemn a person. Maybe. But maybe not.

 

Notice im focusing on facts - that’s it. Not ambiguous unknowns and personal opinion.

 

It’s not hard to see both sides of the story if you want to.

[Gloyale]

There is a lot of hatred and hostility in your statements.  I don't know why you are looking for a fight.  Liver complaint, just an overbearing control freak mentality?  If the facts were lined up properly on the case the state would consider the shop to be at fault for having an inexperienced helper working on vehicles.  All that was required was to have the rotor brackets loosened, and if the pins are frozen the best option could be replacing the brackets and putting in slide pins/grease, etc..  Easy job, he said it was a half hour job but his guy bungled it.  I had been told he'd do it the day before, stood around for quite a while and he said his mechanic wasn't going to be back; next day I come and he has a helper work on it breaking parts...If I can do this quickly as it turned out any idiot can.  There  is no good reason to break parts.  

 

Hey, it's not personal.  

 

It's about what you've stated here.

 

What you stated was that you had someone do work.  You agreed to pay.  They started the work, ran into issues (which happens ALL THE TIME, stuff breaks, especially rusty brake stuff)

 

Then you asked them to let you drive away in an unsafe vehicle, and didn't pay.

 

Based solely on that info, I would say you stiffed the guy, if not all out stole from him.  I would not work on your car.

 

 

And FWIW, perhaps your installation of a brake pad BACKWARDS (HTF does one even do that?) may have caused problems and stress on the slide pins that led to the breakage.  

 

At any rate, it shows you are not a qualified person to asses what a good mechanic should or shouldn't do......since you can't put a brake pad in correctly maybe don't judge people, m,kay?

[ThosL]

I appreciated a lot of the work the shop has done and I really hope they get back to normal. For the record I did stop by later and gave him some cash for his trouble.   I found the job relatively easy though initially I thought I would need power tools; just some wrenches and a ratchet with the right metric tools should be enough.  

[1 Lucky Texan]

everyone makes mistakes, it's how you handle it that makes the difference.

 

 

maybe not the same, but on a coupla occasions I have given shops lottery tickets or taken pastries by at opening for helping me with free advice.

Edited April 9, 2018 by 1 Lucky Texan

[idosubaru]

 

maybe not the same, but on a coupla occasions I have given shops lottery tickets or taken pastries by at opening for helping me with free advice.

Awesome! Keep it up!