2005 legacy tight steering slow speeds

[vtwinjunkie]

Hey all, I have read many things here about the duty c etc but... I really don't think that is the case here. 

I have a 2005 legacy that at slow speeds (turning into a parking lot) it seems to have a brief moment of tight steering (I hate to use the word bind because it feels less than a bind). To test more I have gone into a parking lot and turn the wheels full lock, it will go in a circle just fine idling and when I let off the steering wheel it straightens out just fine. I notice it mostly when backing out of the driveway or making a tight turn into a parking space. It just seems tight during a small segment of the turn. I was thinking maybe a suspension issue (I did notice the struts were replaced) perhaps binding there?

Im having trouble describing it but I know there is something going on because my 2005 outback is smooth as butter no matter how I steer it at all speeds idle through cruising. 

I am going to tear into it in the next few weeks after holiday to try to figure it out but I wanted to check in with some of you all first to hear some opinion/experience.

 

Thanks all

[montana tom]

My guess would be a C/V joint .

[vtwinjunkie]

2 hours ago, montana tom said:

My guess would be a C/V joint .

Thanks Tom,

It isnt making noise but Ill have a look to see if one has run dry. I have been under the car once (recent purchase) but diddnt notice any grease spun out of either side. Ill have a second look.

 

If not I guess I will have to remove them one by one and visually inspect. 

Edited June 25, 2018 by vtwinjunkie

[1 Lucky Texan]

It isn't clear if you feel binding in the 'car', or in the steering wheel.

 

the little u-joint on the steering column can have a narrow arc of tightness. Spray it with some lube and try it.

[vtwinjunkie]

7 minutes ago, 1 Lucky Texan said:

It isn't clear if you feel binding in the 'car', or in the steering wheel.

 

the little u-joint on the steering column can have a narrow arc of tightness. Spray it with some lube and try it.

This is a good point. I wasnt actually able to distinguish but I will try that this evening. 

 

Thank you

[1 Lucky Texan]

TB in car would be a 'holding back' or bucking/jerking feeling in the 'seat-of-the-pants'.

if that Cardan/w'ever  joint between the rack and the steering wheel is rusty, it can make 1 or 2 tight spots in the same place in the steering arc in both directions.

 

I do also think many folks have had CV axles present similar issues. maybe especially if the problem seems to be side dependent? (the inside of a turn always stresses CV joints more due to ackerman angle geometry in the linkage)

 

Edited June 25, 2018 by 1 Lucky Texan

[el_freddo]

Cv axles wouldn't do this. 

A sticky/clicky/notchy steering Uni joint will do this. Best to pull the Uni joint/steering knuckle out and feel it through all ranges of motion. If it has a clicky/notchy feel to it get a replacement part that's in good condition.

Cheers

Bennie 

[vtwinjunkie]

Wow this is some really great info so far thanks all. I will get all this checked out

[vtwinjunkie]

On 6/26/2018 at 7:02 AM, el_freddo said:

Cv axles wouldn't do this. 

A sticky/clicky/notchy steering Uni joint will do this. Best to pull the Uni joint/steering knuckle out and feel it through all ranges of motion. If it has a clicky/notchy feel to it get a replacement part that's in good condition.

Cheers

Bennie 

Checked the steering universal joint and all is well. 

[vtwinjunkie]

On 6/25/2018 at 3:51 PM, 1 Lucky Texan said:

TB in car would be a 'holding back' or bucking/jerking feeling in the 'seat-of-the-pants'.

if that Cardan/w'ever  joint between the rack and the steering wheel is rusty, it can make 1 or 2 tight spots in the same place in the steering arc in both directions.

 

I do also think many folks have had CV axles present similar issues. maybe especially if the problem seems to be side dependent? (the inside of a turn always stresses CV joints more due to ackerman angle geometry in the linkage)

 

Problem isn't side dependent. 

 

It also doesn't seem to change wether the car is warmed up or not. 

 

Definitely has me scratching my head!

[vtwinjunkie]

On 6/25/2018 at 3:34 PM, 1 Lucky Texan said:

It isn't clear if you feel binding in the 'car', or in the steering wheel.

 

the little u-joint on the steering column can have a narrow arc of tightness. Spray it with some lube and try it.

I thought more about this. 

 

I cant seem to distinguish it though....I tried to lube up the steering column real well and it didn't change a thing. 

 

The more I drive it and try to diagnose......Im wondering if a bent tie rod would cause it? It seems to bring the idle down when it catches...I am wondering if it is an issue with the power steering rack...

 

 

[vtwinjunkie]

On 6/25/2018 at 10:13 AM, montana tom said:

My guess would be a C/V joint .

I may replace both with an extra set I have...I have a few that I need to re-boot. 

 

either that or i'm thinking power steering causing the bind some how...

[1 Lucky Texan]

strut bearing?

[heartless]

9 hours ago, 1 Lucky Texan said:

strut bearing?

my first thought as well... front strut mount.

[vtwinjunkie]

On 7/25/2018 at 11:12 PM, 1 Lucky Texan said:

strut bearing?

Yes but would this affect both sides? 

It has new struts, noticed this after purchase. I would hope they diddnt put them back together with bad bearing(s) but I guess anythings possible .

[heartless]

9 hours ago, vtwinjunkie said:

Yes but would this affect both sides? 

It has new struts, noticed this after purchase. I would hope they diddnt put them back together with bad bearing(s) but I guess anythings possible .

yes, one bad mount can affect both directions, but being a 13 yr old car, chances are both are shot.

Edited July 31, 2018 by heartless

[1 Lucky Texan]

wait, this began after strut install?

 

decent chance the 'spacer'  (#3 in drawing) at the top is inverted - it is a beveled or cone-section washer gadget that must be oriented correctly or it drags instead of turning the bearing.

Edited July 31, 2018 by 1 Lucky Texan

[idosubaru]

On 7/25/2018 at 10:29 PM, vtwinjunkie said:

Checked the steering universal joint and all is well. 

how did you check it?   they really need to be removed to test, particularly if we're looking into them for something with such limited symptoms as you're describing. 

are you sure it's not normal AWD feeling?  that your outback is different might mean you're comparing two different transmissions - if your legacy is MPT and your outback is VTD they are not the same and could feel different. 
 

i would try all manners of small movements, turns, circles/forward/back in succession, while idling try steering at various angles, etc and see if you can tell if you can isolate it as steering related or moving related? 

a ujoint o steering issue would have a good chance of being symptomatic without rolling. 

could you describe it better? 

*** can you tell if it's more of a "steering" related symptom or "rolling" symptom. 
any noises?
do you feel a resistance like it's lightly holding the vehicle back?
any feelings of thump, thunk, vibration, clunk?
is it momentary or will it do it for a couple seconds? 
does it only do it at full lock or will it do it at half way, 3/4, or just shy of full lock?

[CNY_Dave]

If an auto putting in the fuse or even coasting in neutral can rule out the transfer clutch.

My forester TC has been 'tight' for a very long time, and it feels like stiff steering just as described.

[vtwinjunkie]

On 7/31/2018 at 10:10 AM, idosubaru said:

how did you check it?   they really need to be removed to test, particularly if we're looking into them for something with such limited symptoms as you're describing. 

are you sure it's not normal AWD feeling?  that your outback is different might mean you're comparing two different transmissions - if your legacy is MPT and your outback is VTD they are not the same and could feel different. 
 

i would try all manners of small movements, turns, circles/forward/back in succession, while idling try steering at various angles, etc and see if you can tell if you can isolate it as steering related or moving related? 

a ujoint o steering issue would have a good chance of being symptomatic without rolling. 

could you describe it better? 

*** can you tell if it's more of a "steering" related symptom or "rolling" symptom. 
any noises?
do you feel a resistance like it's lightly holding the vehicle back?
any feelings of thump, thunk, vibration, clunk?
is it momentary or will it do it for a couple seconds? 
does it only do it at full lock or will it do it at half way, 3/4, or just shy of full lock?

Thanks, 

outback and legacy are both 2005 , both auto 4 spd, and both 2.5i so I just assumed they were the same trans.

 

That is great advice, thank you. I have tried all movements you have described. it definitely feels more steering related rather than being held back. 

 

no noises (at least relating to this that I can tell). It does have a noise going over bumps which I think could also be strut related (maybe the top hats) but Ill get to that after the steering issue. 

 

The issue only happens at just shy of full lock and clears up soon after on each side.  

 

I diddnt actually take off the cv boots to inspect them off the vehicle (turning in all directions and all angles to check for binding). I guess I will do that as well once I pull the struts next week to inspect the assembly (Car had strut work done before I bought it). 

[vtwinjunkie]

On 8/1/2018 at 12:46 PM, CNY_Dave said:

If an auto putting in the fuse or even coasting in neutral can rule out the transfer clutch.

My forester TC has been 'tight' for a very long time, and it feels like stiff steering just as described.

oh this is a great idea. Never thought about coasting in neutral and turning the wheel all the way to experience it. 

 

Thanks

[vtwinjunkie]

On 7/31/2018 at 9:52 AM, 1 Lucky Texan said:

wait, this began after strut install?

 

decent chance the 'spacer'  (#3 in drawing) at the top is inverted - it is a beveled or cone-section washer gadget that must be oriented correctly or it drags instead of turning the bearing.

This is exactly the piece I was thinking of thanks!!

 

I am going to check this early next week after work one night!

 

Great diagram I thank you. 

[vtwinjunkie]

On 8/1/2018 at 12:46 PM, CNY_Dave said:

If an auto putting in the fuse or even coasting in neutral can rule out the transfer clutch.

My forester TC has been 'tight' for a very long time, and it feels like stiff steering just as described.

Welp.

 

I put it in neutral and coasted lock to lock with the wheels and it was smooth as butter. Looks like I may have the torque bind. 

 

What are my options now? can I keep driving it like this? 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by vtwinjunkie

[1 Lucky Texan]

surprised in doesn't bind doing tight circles.

all 4 tires same brand/model/size/wear? any chance a trans or rear diff have been swapped?

sometimes, fresh trans fluid can help. 3 drain/fill cycles get you over 80% new fluid.

put in the FWD fuse and you can drive indefinitely.

 

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by 1 Lucky Texan

[idosubaru]

On 8/2/2018 at 10:39 PM, vtwinjunkie said:

The issue only happens at just shy of full lock and clears up soon after on each side.  . 

That's a common indication that the steering column ujoint should be checked.  the ujoint gets notchy and catches are very specific points in the steering wheel arc.  And you never answered my question to verify the ujoint:

On 7/31/2018 at 10:10 AM, idosubaru said:

how did you check it?   they really need to be removed to test, particularly if we're looking into them for something with such limited symptoms as you're describing. ?

It doesn't seem like you took it off to inspect it?  

But...maybe you don't need to with the new info...

12 hours ago, vtwinjunkie said:

I put it in neutral and coasted lock to lock with the wheels and it was smooth as butter. Looks like I may have the torque bind. 

That's definitely telling but i wouldn't necessarily condemn it immediately based on what's typed in this thread so far. 

1. repair it - new Duty C and clutches.  Very roughly $1,000. 

2. drive it with the FWD fuse indefinitely, taking it out when the roads are bad. 

3. install a switch so you can flip between FWD and "locked" or just nominal AWD.  I've done this to numerous subarus.  It's advantageous to be able to "lock" it at will and it's an easy work around for torque bind, or other issues, in automatics.   

it's really easy - involves one wire and very simple wiring of a basic switch.