04 Outbach has fuel, good compression, spark, timing correct, wont start.

[biggman100]

I have an 04 outback 2.5 that died while being driven. Spark is good and clean, compression is a steady 140 on each cylinder when cold, timing belt is in good shape and the timing is dead on on the marks, and fuel pressure shows a steady 42LBS with key on engine off, and jumps to 50 when cranking. Injectors seem to be getting power, as well as a pulse signal. I used a Snap On Ethos, and all the sensors appear to be operating correctly. I even had the shop owner where i took the car scan it again, and go through a bunch of tests, just to make sure neither of us missed anything. It died last Thursday, and Friday i spent 9 hours going over every thing i could think of twice, suspected a faulty fuel pump, so i swapped it with one from a running car, and still no start. I even put the fuel pump from my car into the running car, and it ran fine, but, when i put it back in my car, i could hear the pump, but, even after getting 40 plus pounds of pressure with the key on, it started once, ran like crap, and then died after about maybe ten minutes, and hasn't started since. So far, the shop owner where the car is at, two of his mechanics, and myself, have gone over this car multiple times, and no luck. It has been poked and prodded, and every system tested at least 3 times since Friday, so, any idea what i could possibly be missing? The only other issue i noticed is the exhaust is broke just in front of the muffler, but i don't see how that is in any way relevant.

[GeneralDisorder]

Try unplugging the MAP sensor and see if it will run in limp mode for you. 

Also - even though you have fuel pressure and injector power/signal - have you tried some starter fluid into the air filter housing to see if it will fire?

GD

[montana tom]

Plugged exhaust ?    

[biggman100]

We tried starter fluid, before i changed the pump, which is what made me think the pump was bad, because, with the starter fluid, it started, and seemed to run fine for at least a few seconds.

[GeneralDisorder]

Try starter fluid again. Sounds like possibly the injectors aren't firing or are plugged. Power and ground trigger is good, but you need amperage to turn on the injectors so do a voltage drop test. And of course the injectors need to flow fuel as well (and the filter too). I have seen filter elements blow out due to high differential pressure and clog injectors. 

GD

[1 Lucky Texan]

does an 04 still have that IACV hose going to the intake tubing? could be loose

[biggman100]

33 minutes ago, GeneralDisorder said:

Try starter fluid again. Sounds like possibly the injectors aren't firing or are plugged. Power and ground trigger is good, but you need amperage to turn on the injectors so do a voltage drop test. And of course the injectors need to flow fuel as well (and the filter too). I have seen filter elements blow out due to high differential pressure and clog injectors. 

GD

This one doesn't have a regular fuel filter, just the sock in the tank, and, where the filter should be there is a damper in the feed and return lines. After i put in the fuel pump from the running car, it did start on Saturday and ran for about ten minutes, it just didn't have much power. Then, yesterday it started, once, and ran long enough for to move it maybe 50 feet to another part of the parking lot, but, then it died as i was pulling up to put it in the parking space, and since then refuses to start, so im kind of doubting its plugged injectors. I have even pulled the FPR to make sure that wasn't plugged, and also applied vacuum to it and ran air through the lines to  make sure it was working correctly. I'm half wondering if it isn't a plugged exhaust, but, i wont be able to do anymore on it until tomorrow. Ill try unplugging the map, and see what that does, and then try the other suggestions.

 

Sorry if it seems like i'm haphazardly adding things i did, its been a very long 6 days, and i am beyond exhausted, so i am adding things we did as i remember them.

Edited September 19, 2018 by biggman100

[1 Lucky Texan]

scan for pending codes?

[biggman100]

1 hour ago, 1 Lucky Texan said:

scan for pending codes?

 

10 hours ago, GeneralDisorder said:

Power and ground trigger is good, but you need amperage to turn on the injectors so do a voltage drop test.

GD

Disconnected the map, and still no start. I also didn't see a voltage drop, but, I'm waiting on one of the other guys to confirm I did it right. The only times any pending or active codes show is when I disconnect something.

Edited September 19, 2018 by biggman100

[GeneralDisorder]

I've see plenty of plugged exhaust cars, and they will start and idle usually. Loosen the header off the engine and see if that makes a difference. It's only 6 nuts.

There should be a fuel filter under the hood unless it's actually a 2005 model in which case it's a canister in the tank above the pump. The car SHOULD have a fuel filter either above the pump or in the engine bay. If it doesn't then definitely start flow testing the injectors and get a filter on it. 

GD

Edited September 19, 2018 by GeneralDisorder

[biggman100]

11 minutes ago, GeneralDisorder said:

There should be a fuel filter under the hood unless it's actually a 2005 model in which case it's a canister in the tank above the pump. The car SHOULD have a fuel filter either above the pump or in the engine bay. If it doesn't then definitely start flow testing the injectors and get a filter on it. 

GD

Under the hood, where the filter should be, there are two fuel dampeners, and I don't see a filter on the pump. The build date is 10/03, so it's definitely an 04. This pic shows the dampers where the filter should be.

[biggman100]

This pic shows the top of the pump.

[GeneralDisorder]

The filter would be inside the tank, above the pump, bolted to the pickup/sending unit bracketry. Or it's been deleted from under the hood. Which is a terrible idea. 

[idosubaru]

Two known data points are related - there's no fuel filter and it runs with starting fluid.  

04 fuel filter should be in the engine bay - I would be looking a why it doesn't have a filter and go from there.

I'm not sure anyone knows what happens to a vehicle without a fuel filter but there's only a pump, lines, dampers, injectors and is there a FPR somewhere on these?

 

 

 

[nvu]

No fuel filter, clogged injectors.

[1 Lucky Texan]

stupid question but, If this were Outback SPORT, would that alter the underhood arrangement?

[1 Lucky Texan]

oh, I see he has 132 posts so, likely no confusion

[montana tom]

This is an 04   California emission car for sure.   Its going to have drive by wire as well.  

Filter is in the tank.

[1 Lucky Texan]

hmmmm....early DBWs sometimes had wonky pedal assemblies.......

 

and, they have a 'zero' position routine too IIRC?

Edited September 19, 2018 by 1 Lucky Texan

[biggman100]

1 hour ago, GeneralDisorder said:

The filter would be inside the tank, above the pump, bolted to the pickup/sending unit bracketry. Or it's been deleted from under the hood. Which is a terrible idea. 

 

23 minutes ago, 1 Lucky Texan said:

stupid question but, If this were Outback SPORT, would that alter the underhood arrangement?

 

21 minutes ago, montana tom said:

This is an 04   California emission car for sure.   Its going to have drive by wire as well.  

Filter is in the tank.

 

58 minutes ago, nvu said:

No fuel filter, clogged injectors.

I have suspected injectors or fuel pump right from the start, but kept getting told by the shop owner, who has over 35 years experience (although almost no Subaru experience, which is why he always calls me for Subaru's he needs fixed), that he has never seen all 4 injectors get plugged, so, tbh i stupidly listened to him and suspected the pump. I myself have 10 years experience, all in a Subaru shop, but that was more than 10 years ago, before drive by wire and in tank filters (i worked for a used Subaru dealer, and the newest cars we typically worked on were 02 and older), which this car has both of. I finally stopped listening to him and checked resistance on the injectors, and all 4 show above 64 OHMS, and i was under the impression they were supposed to be in the 12-17 OHM range, so, i pulled all 4 injectors, and just to see what happens im gonna throw a set i have from a car that blew up (drove it for 8 months with bad head gaskets), and see if this one will run or not. The only thing i need to verify first is if the injectors from 01 and 04 are the same, which i will do in a couple minutes. Well, scratch that, the injectors in this car are 05-07 outback, so, ill have to see if i can find some. I am almost positive it is the injectors though, since i had someone turn the key on, and step on the gas just enough to open the throttle, sprayed starter fluid in it, and each time i did, it started right up. The second time i did it, i sprayed a little too much though, and got flame out of the throttle body for a second, so, along with my other tests, i am pretty certain its plugged injectors.

[1 Lucky Texan]

 I know you confirmed it, but, but, what about a triple check for slipped timing - do a tooth count to be certain?

 

'backfire' thru TB seems odd, but not surprising with starter fluids.....?

 

if you decide to drop the ex. mani., look for 'dropped' valve guides too.

Edited September 19, 2018 by 1 Lucky Texan

[biggman100]

6 minutes ago, 1 Lucky Texan said:

 I know you confirmed it, but, but, what about a triple check for slipped timing - do a tooth count to be certain?

 

'backfire' thru TB seems odd, but not surprising with starter fluids.....?

 

if you decide to drop the ex. mani., look for 'dropped' valve guides too.

I know the timing is dead on. I took the covers off and checked it several times, and, the covers are still off so i can watch it and other things while cranking it.

[GeneralDisorder]

Experience with specifically Subaru doesn't really have much to do with this troubleshooting. The troubleshooting flow for the fuel delivery is going to be the same on a 2004 Subaru and on my 1986 Trans Am. Because both are MPFI. I would not approach it any differently. All I can say is that 35 years of experience is much too long to not know this. I would have that problem narrowed to the exact cause in under an hour. No start diag... I would check oil level (I always check oil level under the "do no harm" doctrine), and spark. Depending on how the engine sounds while cranking I would then go to either timing belt, or starter fluid test. From there we would find it idles on starter fluid. Commence testing fuel delivery. Pressure and volume good, injector signal good....pull injectors and flow bench. Done. 

GD

Edited September 19, 2018 by GeneralDisorder

[biggman100]

6 hours ago, GeneralDisorder said:

 No start diag... I would check oil level (I always check oil level under the "do no harm" doctrine), and spark. Depending on how the engine sounds while cranking I would then go to either timing belt, or starter fluid test. From there we would find it idles on starter fluid. Commence testing fuel delivery. Pressure and volume good, injector signal good....pull injectors and flow bench. Done. 

GD

The biggest problem here is that every time i try to do something, like test the injectors, or pull the timing cover, i would get responses like, it was being driven when it died, so i refuse to believe its timing, or injectors, or whatever else he doesn't want to take the time to do. It isn't just this car, it is literally every car we work on. When it first died, the first thing i said was, it is fuel related, but, he thought it had to be something simple, such as a sensor that went, and as usual wouldn't listen to anyone about it. Even though its my car, since i'm doing it at his place, if i don't do it his way, he can be a real jerk about it, and since i cant work on anything at my house, and didn't want another tow bill, i get to deal with him over it. 

[GeneralDisorder]

Sounds like all the shops in town that end up towing the car to me when they can't figure out the problem. Yet another hack with "experience" that means nothing. Without a systematic, unbiased method, you'll just spin your wheels like that.

Maybe it's not the injectors.  But that's what the data points to. You go where the data takes you, not where you "believe" the problem to be. 

GD