subarujim01 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 I am considering adding a fuel injection system to my 1978 brat with a EA71 engine. Holley has a new 2bbl EFI kit available "Holley Sniper EFI 2300 self-tuning master kit", with a adapter plate that will fit unto the Weber plate I added when I upgraded to that from the orginal carburetor. Has any one tried this already? If so what issues did you run into. I have added a AC system the Brat but when I tried to use it last summer here in Tucson the current draw on the engine is too much , unless I change the electric chock to a manual unit on the weber carb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carfreak85 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 My guess is that that system won't be able to turn the wick down far enough to not be constantly over-fueling that little 1.6L engine, even at full chat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 7 hours ago, carfreak85 said: My guess is that that system won't be able to turn the wick down far enough to not be constantly over-fueling that little 1.6L engine, even at full chat. Actually its been surprising what the new EFI (throttle body) kits can do. However you do have a point and should email them to find out if it can handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carfreak85 Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 Just looked up the kit on Holley.com. It's rated at 350 N/A hp, but in the Q&A section they say they have tested it down to ~100 hp. That's still a solid 30+ hp more than even the healthiest EA71 ever made, so it would probably work, but you'd be running pig rich all the time. I would pass on it, but it is intriguing. Though for the $900 MSRP, I think you could come up with a similar solution that is closer to the fuel needs of your EA71. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 44 minutes ago, carfreak85 said: Just looked up the kit on Holley.com. It's rated at 350 N/A hp, but in the Q&A section they say they have tested it down to ~100 hp. That's still a solid 30+ hp more than even the healthiest EA71 ever made, so it would probably work, but you'd be running pig rich all the time. I would pass on it, but it is intriguing. Though for the $900 MSRP, I think you could come up with a similar solution that is closer to the fuel needs of your EA71. Possibly use a throttle body from anther small 4 cyl engine and a megasquirt system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 48 minutes ago, carfreak85 said: Just looked up the kit on Holley.com. It's rated at 350 N/A hp, but in the Q&A section they say they have tested it down to ~100 hp. That's still a solid 30+ hp more than even the healthiest EA71 ever made, so it would probably work, but you'd be running pig rich all the time. I would pass on it, but it is intriguing. Though for the $900 MSRP, I think you could come up with a similar solution that is closer to the fuel needs of your EA71. Take all advertised HP gains with a grain of salt.Too many variables to actually justify the gains on all engines. Do you have the link so we can all peek at it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 Will this help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carfreak85 Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 1 hour ago, nipper said: Do you have the link so we can all peek at it? Holley Sniper EFI 2300 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarujim01 Posted March 7, 2019 Author Share Posted March 7, 2019 yes here is the link I have https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/sniper_efi/sniper_2300_2bbl/sniper_2300_2bbl_master_kits_with_fuel_system/parts/550-849K not sure about the issue about how it would be running rich all the time as the system has an internal fuel regulator. according to Holley. I have considered using a Subaru fuel injection system that I pulled off a 1.8 l engine but that presents a host of problems also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarujim01 Posted March 7, 2019 Author Share Posted March 7, 2019 I currently have the engine pulled to replace the clutch and it seems like a good time to do some updates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 2 hours ago, subarujim01 said: not sure about the issue about how it would be running rich all the time as the system has an internal fuel regulator. according to Holley. That will regulate the fuel pressure going to the injectors. The problem comes with the fact that it has 2 100lb/hr injectors, when you turn down the duty cycle on those enough for a 1.6l engine, they will not have very much resolution (how much is dependent on the processing power of that little ECU). https://fuelinjectorclinic.com/flow-calculator Punching some quick numbers (entering 2 cylinders, as it seems to be calculating it based on one injector per cylinder), assuming you make about 75hp at the crank, You should be running about 20lb/hr injectors, but that kit comes with 100lb/hr units. If the Injectors can be replaced with smaller ones, it would probably work very well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarujim01 Posted March 7, 2019 Author Share Posted March 7, 2019 (edited) Thanks that adds some clarity. I will talk to Holley about possibility of changing the injectors to better match , that is if the onboard ECU can not adjust the injectors. Depending on the cost it would than make the system they have really adaptable for a wide range of applications. If Holley can not/will not work with me, than maybe the link you added (thanks) will point me to the right person/company to help out. either way it seems like an better way to go then modifying the Subaru FI system I have. Edited March 7, 2019 by subarujim01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 Well one of the reviews said he put it on a 1.8L toyota motor ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
czny Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 You might even find a 4 cyl 94 Chevy S10 truck one barrel throttle body & make an adapter plate, use a mag pickup EA distributor & lock the advance, TBI harness & 7747 ECM from a small block V8 90-91 Chevy truck. Add a 4 wire heated O2 sensor in exhaust wired to relay power/ign started. Get map sensor, ignition module & coil, etc from the 94 S10. Strip down harness to basics, tie both injector pigtails in parallel. Single barrel, single injector. https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/chevy/432269-working-stock-tbi-harness-conversions-picture-intensive.html There is far more support for modding GM V8 ECMs on forums like Gearhead EFI for remapping the prom. Its been done many times. Data logging first after you get it running: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?7559-1991-chevy-dually-chip http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/forumdisplay.php?25-Old-School-EFI http://www.gearhead-efi.com/gm-ecm-pcm-conversion/tbi-efi-conversion.html Example, a TBI converted Toyota 4X4: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/toyota-truck-4runner/895975-22r-tbi.html And on Binder planet: http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/index.php?threads/toyota-22r-gm-tbi.116623/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 13 hours ago, nipper said: Well one of the reviews said he put it on a 1.8L toyota motor ... It's certainly possible. It all comes down to how fast the injector actuation is, and how quick the ECU processor is. That pump and injectors are certainly considerable overkill, but that doesn't mean it can't work on a smaller engine. But that probably is the only big hurdle. Might be able to shoot a quick message to Holley and see if they think that hardware would work on an engine this small or if they can supply smaller injectors. Probably a quick answer for someone that knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarujim01 Posted March 9, 2019 Author Share Posted March 9, 2019 I pulled up the full Holley manual to see what the different Ecu setting and possible modifications would be page 65 talks about the fuel injector flow but indicates it can not be changed. except it indicated that the ecu internally adjusts it based on the engine displacement. which seem the indicate that it could work on the 1.6L engine I have in my 1978 Brat. https://documents.holley.com/techlibrary_199r11321.pdf The weber adapter plate will work just fine with the Holley. I really do not like the idea of cobbling together a bunch of modifications. If I wanted to do that I could get a complete 1.8L or 2.0l EFI crate engine and modify the extra engine support member I have laying around. as well as the extra gas tank I have to set up the return fuel line and install the in tank fuel pump. I did not get a chance to call Holley yet and speak with them about the injector variability but will do as soon a I can . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarujim01 Posted March 9, 2019 Author Share Posted March 9, 2019 I have another question? Can anybody tell me exactly when Subaru (in it's wisdom) switched the Valve design of the 1.6l engine from the Manually adjusted valves found on my original engine to the Self adjuster type found on the 3rd used engine I got in 1993 to replace the 2nd one with. the old engine design required constant adjustments and if not done resulted in major problems. Back in 1982 a shop wanted over $2000.00 to rebuild original, but back than I found I could get used engines from Japan for as little a $145.00 so it was easer to just replace the short blocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 On 3/9/2019 at 11:04 AM, subarujim01 said: except it indicated that the ecu internally adjusts it based on the engine displacement. which seem the indicate that it could work on the 1.6L engine I have in my 1978 Brat. Yes, that's how fuel injection works. The ECU opens the injectors for varying amounts of time (the flow rate of the injector and pressure behind it determines the volume of fuel that passes through in that time) depending how much fuel the engine needs for that revolution. A programmable ECU can further be adjusted to accommodate different engine sizes and other variables (like forced induction). The question is if the ECU and Injectors are capable of accurately opening for a short enough time to supply a small enough amount of fuel to run that efficiently. I wouldn't bet either way, but it's enough of a question that I'd want an answer before I plopped down over a grand. On the top of the page, is this text "ASK OUR EXPERTS: 1-866-464-6553". I bet a person could call that, and ask if the Sniper EFI 2300 can control a 1.6l 4-cyl making about 75hp. And they'd have a real quick answer for you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarujim01 Posted March 11, 2019 Author Share Posted March 11, 2019 3 hours ago, Numbchux said: The question is if the ECU and Injectors are capable of accurately opening for a short enough time to supply a small enough amount of fuel to run that efficiently. I wouldn't bet either way, but it's enough of a question that I'd want an answer before I plopped down over a grand. On the top of the page, is this text "ASK OUR EXPERTS: 1-866-464-6553". I bet a person could call that, and ask if the Sniper EFI 2300 can control a 1.6l 4-cyl making about 75hp. And they'd have a real quick answer for you. Thanks I am calling them now. any info on the valve question? I have not been able to identify by any numbers on the block just what year the engine was built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarujim01 Posted March 11, 2019 Author Share Posted March 11, 2019 (edited) I talked to the Holley expert and the answer was YES the ECU is capable of metering down to very small flow rates and controlling the 1.6l 4 cyl engines As an example he said some large engines like my 1973 dodge 440 motorhome at idle low RPM's only require about 2-4 lb/hr. The ECU adjusts out the injector bounce to compensate and fine tunes the flow resolution. He also indicated the system is being used successfully on 1.9 l VW Wasserboxer engines the air-cooled 1.6l boxer as well as the small BMW's. So my puling the trigger maybe closer. Now I can look at the fuel delivery systems what makes the most sense. Fitech's command center, edelbrocks efi external sump tank system, or Holley's in-line system and see how to add a return fuel line. I will need to look at the spare fuel tank I have to see will work best. Edited March 11, 2019 by subarujim01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 (edited) 57 minutes ago, subarujim01 said: As an example he said some large engines like my 1973 dodge 440 motorhome at idle low RPM's only require about 2-4 lb/hr. Yea, an engine uses the smallest amount of fuel at idle. So if your 440 uses 2-4 lb/hr, the EA71 probably uses about .2 lb/hr. BUT, if they say it can handle it, than I wouldn't worry about it. No, I don't know of your valve question. I have zero hands-on experience with stuff older than EA81s (and even that, just barely). Yea, the fuel system is relatively simple. I don't know those kits at all, but converting it to a high pressure system is relatively straight forward. Just make sure everything's rated for high pressure, and you have an adequate return.... Thanks for following up after calling them. It's good info. Assuming you end up making the conversion, start a new thread with some information on your setup and I'll link it in the FAQ Edited March 11, 2019 by Numbchux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarujim01 Posted March 12, 2019 Author Share Posted March 12, 2019 Ok will do and thanks for the help and attention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarujim01 Posted March 25, 2019 Author Share Posted March 25, 2019 (edited) Hopefully someone can answer a question I have. The distributor on my 1.6l engine has two vacuum connections on the vacuum advance unit. I have checked the ports to see if they each hold a vacuum. The front one (assumed to be the advance port works and holds a vacuum and the advance linkage for the Reluctor moves indicating timing advance (I think). But the rear port (assumed to be the retard port) does not, and is not or does not seem to be sealed and it does not pull or hold a vacuum...... Does this mean that I need to replace the vacuum advance unit on the distributor. If so I have been unable to locate one. Rockauto says they can have my distributor rebuilt at Cardone Part number 31-634, or 31-633. Additionally the distributor appears to be from a automatic trans version vs the manual trans I have, which is not surprising since it was purchased as to used engine. All this stems from my looking at using the 2bbl Holley sniper EFI system, and it says I can set it up as a non timing controlled or a timing controlled system. The retard port is the one highlighted. The 31-633 looks like the one I have Edited March 25, 2019 by subarujim01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarujim01 Posted March 28, 2019 Author Share Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) On 3/11/2019 at 1:28 PM, Numbchux said: Yea, an engine uses the smallest amount of fuel at idle. So if your 440 uses 2-4 lb/hr, the EA71 probably uses about .2 lb/hr. BUT, if they say it can handle it, than I wouldn't worry about it. No, I don't know of your valve question. I have zero hands-on experience with stuff older than EA81s (and even that, just barely). Yea, the fuel system is relatively simple. I don't know those kits at all, but converting it to a high pressure system is relatively straight forward. Just make sure everything's rated for high pressure, and you have an adequate return.... I think I answered my question about the valves. It turns out that when I last swapped out engines in 1993 I apparently got a EA71 "fat" engine which had the different heads, Hydraulic-vs-solid lifters. also I remember I had to change the bell housing to fit the existing tranny as well as the EGR valve feed from the block.Oh and I noticed that it was a slightly wider engine which I thought was due the change in valves. that and the crossover cooling tubes were gone ( I assumed that Subaru figured out they were a waste of effort as long as you mounted a fixed bladed fan to the water pump and as long as you kept the thermostat controlled electric fan. The last thing that occurred was the timing and distributor did not play well together with the existing Hitachi electronic ICU module, as it was a Nippondenso distributor for a automatic trans and I needed to have it rebuilt to make it play with my Hitachi system. I am hoping that the EA71 fat engine will work well with the new "Holley Sniper EFI system" once I fix the Vacuum advance control unit. It turns out the vacuum retard side of the unit has not been working since who knows when. And I initially need the vacuum advance -retard to be fully functional for the Holley computer ECU to understand the functioning, before I disable the timing control from the distributor. quote from the Holley manual follows: "Holley recommends that those who wish to use the Sniper’s timing control feature first get the engine running without timing control. Splitting the timing control into a secondary process will add very little time to the total install, but could significantly help with trouble shooting, should it be needed. " This means getting rid of the vacuum control unit on the distributor and looping the two vacuum lines back into the vacuum modulator unit at the base of the carburetor and intake manifold. I am hopping that will be all that is needed as I have not been able to determine if the distributor has mechanical advance as well the vacuum advance. Edited March 28, 2019 by subarujim01 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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