Engine swap for Brat.Doable?

[Bratmobile]

• 1986 Subaru Brat, hasn't run well in two years. Presently not running at all.
• 2003 Subaru Outback next door is for sale~ very cheap, engine is good (2.5 L 4-cylinder)
• Will the engine from the Outback fit in the Brat? 
• On a scale of 1-10; Degree of difficulty to complete the swap.

 

The pic is my son trying to convince me how cool the Brat is~

[Steptoe]

Just the engine on the drawing board or its transmission as well?

[el_freddo]

Love that colour scheme! 

That EJ25 is most likely a SOHC EJ253 - and it will fit in the engine bay. You’ll want to upgrade the gearbag to either the L series 5 speed or the AWD box that comes with the EJ engine. A few custom bits will be needed to fit the gearbox but there’s plenty of info on the net about this. 

Wiring will be the biggest issue and is the one that usually stumps most people. The keys are 1) find a wiring diagram specific to the donor model and 2) know how to read said diagram. 

After this a brake upgrade would be a wise idea. Rear disc conversion, new rotors and decent pads front and rear, new flexible brake lines should be the bare minimum. 

Then enjoy! 

Cheers 

Bennie

[Bratmobile]

Thanks for the quick replies!

Transmission in the Outback (automatic) is shot, so just the engine. 

Based on the replies, it seems advised not to couple the existing Brat trans to the new engine. Correct?

 

[el_freddo]

Correct. 

Either get an L series 5 speed (the EJ253 will kill this box in the end) or pick up an EJ AWD, flywheel and clutch setup. Use a cable operated clutch cable, no need to go hydro unless you like a lovely light clutch pedal   

Cheers 

Bennie

[FerGloyale]

I'm not sure that a EJ253 will fit between the frame rails.  

I know early EJ22 will fit (90-98)  They barely clear, about 1/2" on the drivers side rear edge.

EJ253 is wider, by about 3 in., so.....I don't think it will fit.

I would look for an 90-98 Legacy donor with 2.2.

[86BRATMAN]

26 minutes ago, FerGloyale said:

I'm not sure that a EJ253 will fit between the frame rails.  

I know early EJ22 will fit (90-98)  They barely clear, about 1/2" on the drivers side rear edge.

EJ253 is wider, by about 3 in., so.....I don't think it will fit.

I would look for an 90-98 Legacy donor with 2.2.

I've done dohc ej swaps in ea81 cars without cutting the rails. Any sohc fits fine. 

[Numbchux]

Yea, it'll fit. Adapter plate to an EA82 transmission (better for offroad use), or use an EJ one (better for street use). Custom transmission crossmember. Some creativity/research on front axles. Wiring. Fuel Pump. Some Plumbing. It's been done many times, documented fairly well.

 

I'd call it about a 2 or 3 out of 10 as far as engine swaps. But I'm pretty well-versed in swaps (currently putting a Lexus quad cam V8 in my 4Runner, and did a lot of work helping a friend put a 6.0 LS in his '98 Legacy).

[FerGloyale]

8 hours ago, 86BRATMAN said:

I've done dohc ej swaps in ea81 cars without cutting the rails. Any sohc fits fine. 

With all respect, Have you actually done a SOHC 2.5 swap??? EJ22e is ~29" at the rear of the valve covers.  And that leaves about 1/2"  from the frame rails.  EJ25D is ~30".  

EJ251/3 is ~311/2"   (AVLS models 31 3/4")  

By my measurements, the SOHC 25 heads are 1/2" taller with valve covers on than the 25D  ,   a full 1"1/4 inch taller than SOCH EHJ22E heads.

I really, really , don't thing that the SOHC EJ251/3 will fit.  The drivers side head will hit the frame rail in the back near hill holder.

[86BRATMAN]

The clearance problem for the dohc engines isn't at the valve covers, it's the timing covers. There was plenty of room between the back of the valve covers and the frame rails. While I haven't done one, it's also obvious you haven't either, but it has been done numerous times by the Australians. So there is plenty of evidence that it will fit. 

[FerGloyale]

EJ25D and EJ20G are actually not quite as wide at the back corners as the SOHC 2.5s are.  

I've put EJ253 in a XT, but not in an EA81 car.

The EJ22E in my 84 wagon fit's BARELY.......about 1/2" clearnace at the back of the valve covers.  So tight that while wheeling the engine shifted enough to break off the PCV nipple on the valve cover against the frame rail.  It's 6" lifted, but even if it wasn't it would be in the same fit between the frame rails.  The EJ251/3 is over 2" wider at the back corner.  I guess I just haven't really seen it done.  the EJ22E seems the way to go for EA81 cars.  or at least 22E heads on 2.5 franken motor

 

[el_freddo]

9 hours ago, FerGloyale said:

.I really, really , don't thing that the SOHC EJ251/3 will fit.  The drivers side head will hit the frame rail in the back near hill holder.

I really really don’t think you’ve done this in an EA81 platform either - unless the US versions got the hill holder function. Over here we did not. 

The EJ251/EJ253 will fit. A mate of mine did one years ago and it passed engineering easily. And it was stupid quick! 

The EJ25D and any other dual cam variant does not fit without frame/chassis rail mods for a clean install. 

The SOHC with the valve thingy black-magic stuff could be a different kettle of fish, but I don’t know for sure as I’ve never done or seen one of those in the EA81 engine bay...

Cheers 

Bennie

[Steptoe]

On 5/30/2019 at 11:42 PM, el_freddo said:

Love that colour scheme! 

That EJ25 is most likely a SOHC EJ253 - and it will fit in the engine bay. You’ll want to upgrade the gearbag to either the L series 5 speed or the AWD box that comes with the EJ engine. A few custom bits will be needed to fit the gearbox but there’s plenty of info on the net about this. 

Wiring will be the biggest issue and is the one that usually stumps most people. The keys are 1) find a wiring diagram specific to the donor model and 2) know how to read said diagram. 

After this a brake upgrade would be a wise idea. Rear disc conversion, new rotors and decent pads front and rear, new flexible brake lines should be the bare minimum. 

Then enjoy! 

Cheers 

Bennie

" A few custom bits will be needed" means fabricate or source a previously lived custom fabricated

[Steptoe]

It does not hurt to explain that the chassis rails may start out wide at the front but taper down narrower towards the firewall and the engines may be flat but not square for the rear cylinders the one on the left is further back than the one on the right

So the clearance issue for the rear of the engines is on the left. We right hand drivers have our heater tap down on the rail nearby

I run EA82 in my Brumby and have about 3 mm clearance in this spot thanks to gentle rail taps and filed off the flute on the rocker cover. Currently EA82T for the ease of conversion in component match up and torque in same ballpark of EJ22. Having blown away a Foz EJ20 I now think my EJ conversion will go 2.2 or 2.5

Another thing to consider is if you are or have planned suspension height changes because this single change affects the answers people will have for you - as I learner prior to EA82 conversion. Many said required chassis cutting but turns out may be correct if you have a lift. Then one day I saw in the flesh a std height ute with EA82T and no chassis cuts. Also been in an STi EJ20 motivated Brumby, also std height (& brakes!!) its chassis rails just had some massage and maybe behind the scenes portapower to increase the width

[Ritchie]

On 5/30/2019 at 9:44 PM, 86BRATMAN said:

I've done dohc ej swaps in ea81 cars without cutting the rails. Any sohc fits fine. 

Do you have any photos of this? It must be seriously tight at the timing covers.

I'm interested, as I’m about to drop an EJ20t into my brat and if I can get away without chopping the rails it would be great.

[el_freddo]

8 hours ago, Ritchie said:

Do you have any photos of this? It must be seriously tight at the timing covers.

I'm interested, as I’m about to drop an EJ20t into my brat and if I can get away without chopping the rails it would be great.

You’ll probably find this means using a BFH to “massage” the chassis rails. It could look like crap once done. 

Or if you’ve got enough lift the chassis rails might not need to be touched. 

I too am keen for pics. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[FerGloyale]

3 hours ago, el_freddo said:

Or if you’ve got enough lift the chassis rails might not need to be touched. 

 

Lift will drop the engine further between the rails.

It would need to be like 13" (~330mm) to drop the engine below the rail, and then you'd need lift blocks that flared out from the point the rails are at.

I've got a 6 inch lift on my EA81, and the EJ22 fit's with about 1/2" (13mm) of clearance or less at the back corners of the valve covers.  DOHC 2.5 are about 1" wider (26mm) at the back corner so MAYBE......Sohc 2.5 is more than 2" wider (50mm), so I really really don't think it's doable in EA81 without changing something.....lift or not.

I really feel like pics or it didn't happen without frame rail mods.

[86BRATMAN]

This is the best I've got at the moment. I have pics of the clearance between the rails and timing covers on a old phone or laptop. Just a matter of finding them. 

[Steptoe]

Ritchie, I have a 99 Impreza EJ20 in one of my Brumbies for sizing up at std height. No problems but the turbo variant with coil over plug....need to at least disconnect engine mounts and raise to remove coils and plugs

[FerGloyale]

1 hour ago, 86BRATMAN said:

This is the best I've got at the moment. I have pics of the clearance between the rails and timing covers on a old phone or laptop. Just a matter of finding them. 

 

46 minutes ago, Steptoe said:

Ritchie, I have a 99 Impreza EJ20 in one of my Brumbies for sizing up at std height. No problems but the turbo variant with coil over plug....need to at least disconnect engine mounts and raise to remove coils and plugs

 

Right, and my point is that the SOHC 2.5 engines, (espescially AVLS version) are even wider still than this.

OP asked about putting a SOHC 2.5 in a Brat.  I just can't see it fitting.

[86BRATMAN]

 

19 minutes ago, FerGloyale said:

 

 

Right, and my point is that the SOHC 2.5 engines, (espescially AVLS version) are even wider still than this.

OP asked about putting a SOHC 2.5 in a Brat.  I just can't see it fitting.

The 99 sohc ej20 @Steptoehas in his brumby has the exact same external dimensions as the sohc Ej25.

 

@Ritchieasked to see a dohc engine in an ea81 bay so I posted it.

 

Just because you can't see it happening doesn't mean it won't fit. The fact that it's been done several times would seem to definitively prove you wrong. Maybe you should get over it. 

[Ritchie]

1 hour ago, Steptoe said:

Ritchie, I have a 99 Impreza EJ20 in one of my Brumbies for sizing up at std height. No problems but the turbo variant with coil over plug....need to at least disconnect engine mounts and raise to remove coils and plugs

It's a 98 I'm fitting, no coil on plug. I was pretty sure I'd have to lift the engine to change the plugs.

Do the timing covers not touch when the engine is under load?

This is great if it does fit, it will save a load of dicking about with the sparky stick.

[86BRATMAN]

[FerGloyale]

9 hours ago, 86BRATMAN said:

 

The 99 sohc ej20 @Steptoehas in his brumby has the exact same external dimensions as the sohc Ej25.

 

@Ritchieasked to see a dohc engine in an ea81 bay so I posted it.

 

Just because you can't see it happening doesn't mean it won't fit. The fact that it's been done several times would seem to definitively prove you wrong. Maybe you should get over it. 

 

It's not clear from  Steptoe's post whether his 99 EJ20 is a DOHC or SOHC......Sounds like it may be an early DOHC turbo, and he mentions having to lift the engine to access plugs.

Maybe Steptoe could chime in here and clarify if his Brumby swap is a 99 SOHC or DOHC.

Bratman, the pic you posted appears to be a natural RHD model, With A RHD 2.5 swap.  So I am assuming this isn't one of your cars and likely photo pulled from the net?  And you can't see the frame rails so if you didnt do this swap, you don't know what was done to make it fit.

I would be more than happy to be proven wrong.  Opens up options for me in the future.  But I'm not gonna "let it go" until I see proof, of which there has been none in this thread.

As always, my only interest in being on this board is to help spread ACCURATE information about our old subes.  

[el_freddo]

On 5/31/2019 at 3:44 AM, 86BRATMAN said:

I've done dohc ej swaps in ea81 cars without cutting the rails. Any sohc fits fine. 

^ this is what we want to know about. HOW did you fit a DOHC without cutting the frame/chassis rails? Was a Big F’n Hammer (BFH) involved?? 

I too am keen for pics of this area specifically. I know they can’t fit without rail mods, cutting OR hammer. 

And just for clarification, DOHC is double OVER head cams - meaning two per head, not two cams per engine (Single OVER head cam). Not putting you down or hanging a dig. I’ve heard of people getting this wrong before! 

And @FerGloyale - who mentioned that avls? I doubt many play with that series of engine! 

And a ‘98 EJ25 would most likely be the EJ25D - with the DOHC heads... chop chop.

Cheers 

Bennie