Timing belt recommendations and a few other questions

[turbofiat124]

My 2003 Baja (2.5 liter SOHC non turbo) has around 85,000 miles on it so technically it's not due for a timing belt until around 110,000 miles. But it has the original belt and I've heard it's a good idea to change it with that amount of age on it. And serpentine belt while I'm at it. I'm planning on doing it myself. 

I definitely don't want to buy the belt and the tensioner from the parts department at the stealership and get raped. I was looking on Ebay and there are tons of brands ranging from different prices. Some kits as low as $60 to $300. Normally when I just buy a car part, I buy the cheapest thing I can find and very seldom have I ever had any issues but since this is a timing belt and my engine is an interference engine I thought it would be a good idea to ask.

Can someone recommend a good quality belt and tensioner? I'm sure Subaru doesn't make their own belts.

Also some of these kits come with a waterpump, cam and crankshaft seals. I have not pulled the timing belt cover off but is it really worth the effort to replace all that stuff (just while your in there) if none of that is leaking? I realize the waterpump is driven off the timing belt but is it set in stone these waterpumps give up the ghost every 100,000 miles? As well as the oil seals?

Not trying to be cheap but just practical. 

Just looking for some advice from you guys who have worked on these engines. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by turbofiat124

[1 Lucky Texan]

technically, it was due 7 years ago.

there's a TIME side of the maintenance schedule.

[idosubaru]

1 hour ago, turbofiat124 said:

My 2003 Baja (2.5 liter SOHC non turbo) has around 85,000 miles on it so technically it's not due for a timing belt until around 110,000 miles. But it has the original belt and I've heard it's a good idea to change it with that amount of age on it. And serpentine belt while I'm at it. I'm planning on doing it myself. 

I definitely don't want to buy the belt and the tensioner from the parts department at the stealership and get raped. I was looking on Ebay and there are tons of brands ranging from different prices. Some kits as low as $60 to $300. Normally when I just buy a car part, I buy the cheapest thing I can find and very seldom have I ever had any issues but since this is a timing belt and my engine is an interference engine I thought it would be a good idea to ask.

Can someone recommend a good quality belt and tensioner? I'm sure Subaru doesn't make their own belts.

Also some of these kits come with a waterpump, cam and crankshaft seals. I have not pulled the timing belt cover off but is it really worth the effort to replace all that stuff (just while your in there) if none of that is leaking? I realize the waterpump is driven off the timing belt but is it set in stone these waterpumps give up the ghost every 100,000 miles? As well as the oil seals?

Not trying to be cheap but just practical. 

Just looking for some advice from you guys who have worked on these engines. 

Smart - just like you said, you don't really want to cut corners here on an interference engine, they usually bend lots of valves, over 50% of the valves are bent on every one i've seen. 

1. Replace the timing belt and lower sprocket (toothed idler) at a bare minimum.  Those two parts fail the most by a long shot. 
2. Assess the remaining pulleys and replace if noisy or free wheeling too easily (no grease inside).  Look for wetness on the tensioner hydraulic seal. 
3. Use Subaru parts only - belt is Mitsubishi and you can research the cheap $35 pulley...it's koyo or NTN or NSK I think. 
4. Dealer prices on these parts are not bad at all - you can buy them online at discounted prices and there are a number of inexpensive sellers on ebay. 

Yes they're not as cheap as the cheapest belts - but like you said you don't want those on an interference engine anyway. 

The best recommendation is to replace the belt, all 3 pulleys, tensioner, and water pump.  AISIN sells kits, usually they're OEM but there's becoming some confusing providers now too if you're shopping around and not getting a totally aisin kit.   The tensioner isn't prone to fail if properly remove and installed.   

the cam and crank seals for your year are very robust materials and rarely leak. 

Your 2003 baja may have the 7mm oil pump though which is known low grade bottom of the barrel, most EJ25's have 9mm except for a few around 2003-2006.  If yours has a 7mm pump it's best to install a 9mm, in which case you'll need a crank seal and oil pump oring - get them from Subaru. 

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

^^^^ excellent point about the oil pump

[Mike104]

Ido said it all.  Timing belt option is Mitsuboshi.  Idlers/cogged gear are usually NSK or Koyo.  NTN makes the tensioner for Subaru.  You can buy these on eBay/Amazon but beware of counterfeit stuff.  Aisin kits have generally been the go to ones to buy a whole kit.

[idosubaru]

13 hours ago, Mike104 said:

You can buy these on eBay/Amazon but beware of counterfeit stuff.  

Right on - this year I've seen a few "AISIN" labeled "kits", I think it was mostly ebay.  but they had an AISIN part or three and everything else was other suppliers, it wasn't a typical full AISIN or OEM kit.  So yeah, make sure it's an actual AISIN kit and not just carrying the AISIN name, an AISIN part, with other parts thrown in. 

[turbofiat124]

Yeah I was kind of wondering about counterfeit parts. For some reason I thought AISIN was a distributor of factory OEM parts. When I tried to Google AISIN, it pulled up all sorts of websites. Like Summit Racing and Advance Auto for example.

I found this kit on Ebay, whether it's an actual Mitsuboshi belt or counterfeit belt. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Timing-Belt-Kit-OEM-1999-2012-Subaru-Baja-Forester-Impreza-Legacy-Outback-21BK/123474541085

Here is one with the water pump:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Timing-Belt-Kit-Water-Pump-for-00-06-Baja-Subaru-Legacy-Outback-SOHC-2-5L-EJ25/173297604420

Replacing the water pump may not be a bad idea while I'm in there since it's driven off the timing belt. I actually had a timing belt driven water pump on an 86 Honda Prelude lock the engine up. It was spitting out metal chips and squeaking before the engine stalled! Luckily it didn't do any damage to the engine.

Should I just goto the dealership and buy what I need in order to avoid getting high priced Chinese made counterfeit parts when I can get the same stuff for $50?

Since taking the serpentine belt, covers and all that jazz off is most of the work, I might as well replace all those cogs and the waterpump while I'm at it.

Can someone point me in the correct direction where to get descent parts?

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by turbofiat124

[forester2002s]

The first of your eBay links is from Six-Star, which I think is a Subaru dealer (someone can correct me). They list all well-known manufacturers (although they mis-spelt Mitsuboshi). Total price at $240 is high but not unreasonable for OE parts.

The second eBay link says "OE Spec". Who know what that means? And their total price is suspiciously low, $70 for all those components. I wouldn't touch them.

[idosubaru]

First kit sixstar is what you want.  The second kit - no way. The pictured parts aren’t OEM by looking and as he said the price alone says “trash”

AISIN kits are sold on amazon and rock auto and often Include water pump. As long as it’s a complete AISIN kit it’s fine.  Another kit that includes some AISIN parts - avoid those. 

And of course you can buy from a dealer locally or the online dealer parts are often about 20% cheaper than local. 

[turbofiat124]

Thanks guys. I think I'll go with sixparts.

Since this car will be due for a new belt in 10 years/30,000 miles I could just buy the kit from six parts , replace all the bearing parts (cogs) and water pump and just replace the belt with a Mitsubishi (Mitsuboshi?) brand when due in ten years. Unless the grease in the cog bearings will dry out after 10 years.

Do the teeth on the cogs wear out or just the grease dry out inside the bearings?

Did someone say the cog behind the crankshaft pulley needs to be replaced? If so why, I would think it would be keyed or whatever and not have a bearing inside it.

I have a Chilton's manual so I can read up on it.

Not trying to skimp on new parts or wrap this project up hastily. I am mechanically inclined but my time is limited but can't afford to pay someone $800 to do this job if it's something I can do myself.

Apples to oranges but I've replaced timing belts on Fiats ( the pre 83 models) and the only two things they say to replace is the belt and the tensioner bearing every 30,000 miles which looks like a front wheel drive wheel bearing. It just slides over a mechanism and is held on with a bolt.

Water pump is driven off the V-belt and is easy to get to. The teeth on the cogs don't wear out. They are made of steel. 

BTW, you can blame FIAT for timing belts. The DOHC engine used in my 124 Spider was the first massed produced engine to use a timing belt as far back as the 1960s. 

The first car to use one was some German car but was made in limited numbers like 50.

 

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

I did the TB service on my WRX at under 9 years and under 70K miles.

belt looked OK, 2 rollers spun like 'skate wheels' and one of those, the toothed one, wobbled a little.

[nvu]

5 hours ago, turbofiat124 said:

Did someone say the cog behind the crankshaft pulley needs to be replaced? If so why, I would think it would be keyed or whatever and not have a bearing inside it.

The one behind the crankshaft never wears out, it can be reused. 

You'll see the cogged idler next to the water pump.  All the idlers lose grease eventually, they'll probably fail eventually.  You could probably limp it home if it was any smooth idler.  Failure of the cogged idler usually skips timing or snaps the belt entirely. 

Take your time and gather the right parts.  The timing belt almost never fails on these engines, and with lower revving sohc it's likely your idlers are still in good shape when 110,000 rolls around.

[turbofiat124]

Thanks. I want to play it safe and replace anything that might lock up and snap the belt. I plan on keeping this car for awhile.

One thing that really got me thinking about replacing the T-belt was I bought a 2001 Dodge Neon with 200,000 miles on it for my stepson and before I got a chance to change the T-belt it snapped.

Or at least I think that's what happened. When the motor spins over it speeds up and slows down and after watching a YouTube video of an Audi with a snapped T-belt, it's making the same sound.

That car is sitting behind my garage right now and I'm not sure what to do about it . Wheather it's worth fixing or not. I just put a brand new clutch in that POS not long ago! Took me several days to do it.

 

 

[FerGloyale]

42 minutes ago, turbofiat124 said:

 

Or at least I think that's what happened. When the motor spins over it speeds up and slows down and after watching a YouTube video of an Audi with a snapped T-belt, it's making the same sound.

 

 

 

 

If it still runs, the timing belt didn't snap.

Maybe skipped teeth.

But if it snapped entirely, it won't run at all.

I personally wouldn't put any money at all into a 20 year old, 200k mile, Dodge Neon.  Junk it.

[turbofiat124]

One reason I asked about the crankshaft gear was some guy in YouTube was showing how to do a timing belt swap on a 2.5 sohc engine and he was removing the crankshaft pulley but I think he was changing the seal. I haven't watched the whole video.

I'm going to consult my Chilton's manual but if I run into any snags I'll ask. I'll take my time at it.

 

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

pulley comes off, the toothed item on the c'shaft inside the covers is usually called a sprocket I think. Doesn't need to come off for just a belt, but sometimes gets swapped with engine some swaps(along with a cam pulley) or comes off to replace the seal as you said, maybe to check the keyway ???? or, some parts flying around in there when the timing slipped broke a tab off the rear of the sprocket???? (they are used for ignition timing)

Edited August 15, 2019 by 1 Lucky Texan

[Mike104]

4 hours ago, turbofiat124 said:

One reason I asked about the crankshaft gear was some guy in YouTube was showing how to do a timing belt swap on a 2.5 sohc engine and he was removing the crankshaft pulley but I think he was changing the seal. I haven't watched the whole video.

I'm going to consult my Chilton's manual but if I run into any snags I'll ask. I'll take my time at it.

 

 

Toss the Chilton's in the trash can or use it to start a fire.  Go here and get a Factory Service Manual

https://sl-i.net/FORUM/showthread.php?18087-Subaru-Factory-Service-Manuals-

[idosubaru]

Excellent recommendation on burning Chilton if even mildly serious about keeping it awhile.  Subaru FSM are infinitely better and free, how are chiltons even printed any more?!

theres no pulling the cog behind the crank pulley. You watched it wrong or the video was talking about something Else. 

The pulleys are all metal and don’t fail at all / the bearing grease dries up. They seize and stop rolling or blow catastrophically to pieces.  Sometimes the one pulley is called a “toothed idler” or “cog” or “cogged idler” only to differentiate it from the rest which are smooth and it is not.  that one is far more prone to grease degradation and failure.  the belt can slide over the smooth pulleys for awhile even if they fail and seize (but not if they overheat and catastrophically throw up all over the timing case)

subaru timing belts are easy  no special tools takes an hour. give yourself 2-4 hours for a first stab depending how fast you work, add another hour or two for first time water pump   

Agreed on the neon, it may deserve a toast or a party for making it to 200,000 miles and 20 years before scrapping it.  but if you think you can crank some more miles on it and love playing that game I gasket slapped one for a friend in the car with no special tools. The crank pulley and working between the fender rail sucked to start and finish but otherwise it was easy enough all right there on top. I forget what year his was but it was a newer style like early 2000 not 90s. 

[turbofiat124]

Thanks for the link to the shop manual. I downloaded it.

So far the Chilton's manual hasn't let me down. They are much better than Haynes.

One was pulling the axle to replace the passenger inner CV joint boot which busted. Weird, never had an inner joint bust. It's usually the outer boots that bust on most cars.

Also noted to use two 8mm bolts in the threaded holes in the rotor to push the rotor off the hub which was seized. I saw the threaded holes but didn't click that was their purpose but did the job. Clever on Subaru's part. I once had to rent a 9" gear puller to remove a stuck rotor on a Fiat Spider.

BTW. I bought this car new two weeks before Christmas in 2002. It's been a great car. Mine is a 5 speed.

Other than the CV joint boot all I've had go wrong was an O2 sensor. 

I've done all the maintenance on it.

Other repairs: I'm on my third battery, third set of tires and just replaced the front and rear brake pads and front rotors which seems warped. And flushed the brake fluid.

I didn't replace or turn the rears. I wanted to see if just replacing the front rotors would get rid of the shimmy under braking which it did.

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

one of those 3rd party repair manuals used to screw-up folks on older soobs - it listed a crank pulley torque value that was way too low .

inner cv joints get toasted by the exhaust or they would las longer than the outers. If caught within a few weeks of splitting, you can regrease and reboot them. Of course, anything 'could' go bad after 150k-200k miles......

Edited August 16, 2019 by 1 Lucky Texan

[turbofiat124]

2 hours ago, 1 Lucky Texan said:

one of those 3rd party repair manuals used to screw-up folks on older soobs - it listed a crank pulley torque value that was way too low .

inner cv joints get toasted by the exhaust or they would las longer than the outers. If caught within a few weeks of splitting, you can regrease and reboot them. Of course, anything 'could' go bad after 150k-200k miles.....

Mine had 59,700 miles on it and I replaced it on 4/25/10. I keep a record of everything I do to my cars. Even stuff like wiper blades.

I caught mine pretty quick. I just got home pulling a rider mower on a 4X8 trailer and when I got home there was smoke in front of the headlights and this pungent odor.

It slung grease allover the exhaust. I had to wipe it off by hand with a rag soked in kerosene.

I wondered if towing had something to do with it. I didn't have the wagon overloaded. I've hauled heavier stuff in the bed.

 

 

 

 

[turbofiat124]

19 hours ago, FerGloyale said:

 

If it still runs, the timing belt didn't snap.

Maybe skipped teeth.

But if it snapped entirely, it won't run at all.

I personally wouldn't put any money at all into a 20 year old, 200k mile, Dodge Neon.  Junk it.

I hate to talk about this POS Neon but your saying there might be a possibility the belt just jumped a tooth? 

I haven't pulled the cover off to even see.

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

ah, it wasn't clear what was busted but, yeah, boots don't last due to exposure to exhaust heat.

[forester2002s]

There's an awful smell (like fried grasshoppers?) when the grease from a split-boot hits the exhaust.

But I think of it as a Subaru built-in feature, a bit like a warning light. That smell is hard to ignore, and serves as a warning to do something about it PDQ.

[turbofiat124]

Getting back to replacing the timing belt. I contacted SixParts about adding a waterpump to this kit so he sent me an invoice. I got a new waterpump, idler pulleys, belt tensioner and timing belt on their way.  These are all AISIA parts.  

I downloaded the Subaru manual for my model. I hate to say it but the Chilton's manual has better illustrations! I read both to get an understanding but will go by the Subaru manual. I just wanted a heads up on a few things. 

1) First remove the AC and drive belts first. That's straight forward. I might as well replace those belts while I'm at it.

2) It does look like the crankshaft pulley has the be removed before the outer covers can be removed. No big deal. Or shouldn't be...

3) Put the crankshaft pulley back on and rotate the engine over to TDC, then make reference marks on the cam pulleys and crankshaft pulley in relationship with marks on the inner cover. 

4) Looking at the supplied parts, I just have to remove the bolts, replace these and torque them. The only tool I don't have to do this job is the crankshaft pulley holder. I should be able to find one of those cheap at one of the parts stores. I actually have one of those Vice Grips locking chain devices but haven't had much luck using it in the past on other things.

 

5) Taking tension off the timing belt. The Subaru manual says to remove the two idler pulleys and this will take the tension off the belt and it will slip off? So I don't have to actually mess with the automatic belt tensioner? 

6) Installing the new belt: My assumption is:

a) remove and replace the automatic belt tensioner 

b) Slip the belt on over the camshaft and crankshaft pulleys. Noting the number of teeth on the belt in relationship to the cogged idler pulley (2 teeth) and camshaft pulleys.

c) Install the smooth idler pulleys

d) once the new idler pulleys, automatic belt tensioner are installed, make sure all the reference marks are still aligned then pull the pin out of the automatic belt adjuster and this will set the belt tension. Then rotate the engine over a couple of times to make sure all the marks align.

Does all of that sound correct?

I hope I don't sound like I don't know what I am doing. I have installed timing belts before on my Fiats,  just not on a Subaru. But doesn't sound too hard, just different. Not worth the $800 the dealership wanted.