Stevo F Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 After switching from my '03 Forester back to the Legacy L wagon, it feels like I have ot stand on the brakes to get any stopping power. I've been wanting to replace the single piston calipers on the wagon with dual piston calipers and the corresponding larger rotors for better stopping power. I'm still debating on whether to go with the 2nd gen Legacy GT 10.9" rotors and calipers (which were made for my year car) or the 11.5" rotors as found on my 2003 Forester. My main question is whether there will be any significance in stopping power between the two? I can get the GT calipers cheaper and have a couple of old calipers I pulled off my '98 GT sedan to trade in as cores if I get these. However if the Forester setup will be more effective, then it would be worth the extra $. Also, I assume that when replacing the flexible brake lines I should order ones that fit my '98 Legacy, whichever calipers I go with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, Stevo F said: , it feels like I have ot stand on the brakes to get any stopping power It needs a complete fluid flush, regrease the slides and replace the pad retaining clips. That poor of braking has nothing to do with brake size at all. These cars were stopping just fine when new off the showroom floor. Do that first - if you get a significant improvement you might feel much better going with the smaller rotors, which is what I'd recommend if that's what is already easier. If you were going to spend more money, does that car have rear drum? Those L and brighton's get confusing around those years but I think 98 L's have rear drum, put your money into swapping to rear disc if you need more than a fluid flush/maintenance and front upgrade can do. Edited September 5, 2019 by idosubaru 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 Agreed. If the system works as it was intended, it'll be fine. Consider wheel size. Your L may have 14s (my '97 L did). You won't be able to increase your brake size without increasing your wheel size. 276s require 15s and 294s require 16s (it is possible to grind the caliper down to fit some 15s over these). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo F Posted September 5, 2019 Author Share Posted September 5, 2019 Actually I have rear discs already from the factory so I don't see much benefits too upgrading these to a larger size. I flushed the brake fluid several years ago- not sure that would be the problem . It probably wouldn't hurt to to go in and make sure the slide pins are all well lubed and moving smoothly. I'm thinking a more common symptom of that (which I ran into previously) would be sticking, overheating brakes. I stated driving the car again several months ago after driving the '03 Forester (with much better brake feel) for almost a year, so part of it could be I was used to the more sensitive brakes- not sure though. Interestingly, we just put 16" tires on it a few months ago with used tires that came off our '97 GT, replacing the stock 14" wheels., but I can'tr see where that change would change brake function. Tires still have some life left in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 39 minutes ago, Stevo F said: Actually I have rear discs already from the factory so I don't see much benefits too upgrading these to a larger size. Great that you have disc instead of drum. no one mentioned upgrading rear discs, there's no point in that. 39 minutes ago, Stevo F said: I flushed the brake fluid several years ago- That's good, I'd move this to the bottom instead of the top of the list then. Several years on a car that sat unused doesn't confirm a full fluid change wouldn't help. Flush all 4 lines a lot to ensure all the old fluid gets out. 39 minutes ago, Stevo F said: I stated driving the car again several months ago after driving the '03 Forester (with much better brake feel) for almost a year, so part of it could be I was used to the more sensitive brakes- not sure though I think you're first inclination is right - the brakes are a little below average. i'd continue checking into what you started. 44 minutes ago, Stevo F said: Interestingly, we just put 16" tires on it a few months ago with used tires that came off our '97 GT, replacing the stock 14" wheels., but I can'tr see where that change would change brake function. Tires still have some life left in them. Age and environmental exposure/usage would impact tire related braking performance in wet/snow/emergency/ABS use, but I don't think the type of pedal feel you're indicating. There's a 4 digit date code stamped on the side of the tire. In general 3 year old cheap or average tires can start to degrade and 5 year old higher end tires can start to degrade. the materials degrade due to the sun and oxygen exposure - with better tires handling that better than cheaper ones. Often you can see the cracks starting to form from this degradation as the materials "dry out". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 Is the braking surface of the rotors rusted? That makes a big difference on the peddle. You can get semi metallic pads from rock auto. A few years ago I tried ceramic pads on the front of our 95 RHD Legacy wagon (postal). My wife called me the next morning and said "What ever you did to the brakes on this car -- UNDO IT--. I rolled past my first two mail boxes". They are not allowed to back up when delivering mail. She had to push harder on the peddle than with the previous semi metallic pads. So, I went to the dealer and got the postal pads I had been using. They will last 7 to 8 months. Raybestos and Wagner work good but, they only last 3 months. She has almost 700 mail boxes on her route. Our 95 and 97 have the single piston calipers and they work good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo F Posted September 5, 2019 Author Share Posted September 5, 2019 1 hour ago, idosubaru said: Great that you have disc instead of drum. no one mentioned upgrading rear discs, there's no point in that. That's good, I'd move this to the bottom instead of the top of the list then. Several years on a car that sat unused doesn't confirm a full fluid change wouldn't help. Flush all 4 lines a lot to ensure all the old fluid gets out. I think you're first inclination is right - the brakes are a little below average. i'd continue checking into what you started. Age and environmental exposure/usage would impact tire related braking performance in wet/snow/emergency/ABS use, but I don't think the type of pedal feel you're indicating. There's a 4 digit date code stamped on the side of the tire. In general 3 year old cheap or average tires can start to degrade and 5 year old higher end tires can start to degrade. the materials degrade due to the sun and oxygen exposure - with better tires handling that better than cheaper ones. Often you can see the cracks starting to form from this degradation as the materials "dry out". The tires are Bridgestone Turanza's and aren't new at all- date code of 0813 which I believe is February, 2013. The brakin and traction was fine on the GT they used to be on. I did the brakes over on that car when I got it and it did well until it driven into an embankment 4k miles later. My old 14" tires were Michelin Defenders, so likely better quality, but also made in 2013. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo F Posted September 5, 2019 Author Share Posted September 5, 2019 Actually I've been running Centric Posi- Quiet ceramics on all of our cars for years (this set on this car was the first set I installed 5 years ago). Like them- good feel and response, less dust, The rotors only have some light surface rust given the humidity and the car sitting since last weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo F Posted September 5, 2019 Author Share Posted September 5, 2019 (edited) I just took the car out for a good run with a dozen or so times of heavy braking. Seemed to improve a bit even as the brakes got hot. The last few times the brakes started to lock and kick in ABS, so engagement seemed better. After the ride, the front wheels were understandably hot , the left rear was fairly hot and the right right rear wheel was warm. I may check that one later to see if slide pins move freely. Edited September 5, 2019 by Stevo F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 Surface rust will rub onto the pads, then you have rust against rust and rust is slippery causing heat. The pads will wear the rust off the rotors. Once the rust gets off the pads it should brake a lot better. Yes, the drums probably have a little rust in them too. On our van, I had to take the pads off and run them over the wire wheel to get rid of the rust. I have cut thousands of rotors and drums on a brake lathe and rust will ruin a carbide bit in no time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 Switching to a 16" wheel probably went to a larger (wider, at least) tire. The extra weight reduces braking, and if they're any taller OD, that reduces braking leverage. Relatively small change, but still worth considering. This is why the otherwise-identical cars with wider (LGT) or taller (Outback) tires got larger brakes. Your observation of the rear brakes heating up at different rates tells me that they're not working correctly. Here's what I like to do when servicing brake systems. It is very effective, and requires no disassembly other than removing a wheel. I open the bleeder and compress the caliper with it still bolted to the car. This is more effective at removing the worst brake fluid (much moreso than a conventional flush). And once the piston is compressed, you can slide the caliper back and forth and make sure the slides work (crucially, that they work together, I've seen slides that move individually that bind when bolted to the caliper). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 also, if the fluid is dark in color, it should be flushed/replaced... brake fluid should be clear. as it gathers moisture it turns dark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo F Posted September 6, 2019 Author Share Posted September 6, 2019 In any case, still trying to decide between Forester and 2nd gen Legacy GT calipers. I actually have both of these cars in my fleet and both are more responsive than the wagon. I drove the Forester to work today and was glad for the responsive pedal, given the antics of some of the drivers I encountered. I'm not sure of any significant differences in fluid capacity or pad surface area of the two different dual piston calipers, however the rotor is slightly larger for the Forester. Also, one other question- are the brake line to caliper fittings all the same for these? I want new flexible lines and was wondering if I order the lines for the Legacy, are the fittings compatible with the Forester calipers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 (edited) 2003 Got larger caliper pistons on the Outbacks, even though the rotor was the same as the previous few years. I assume the same change was made on the Forester, but I don't know what year off the top of my head. It's a small change, just something to watch for to make sure you get a matched pair. Pads changed 2002-2003 depending on exact model/build date, but surface area stayed the same. Yes, still 10mm banjo fittings. The only thing that changed on the lines is how they mount to the strut. Edited September 6, 2019 by Numbchux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logic23 Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 i think you will find that your rear brakes are frozen up and your fronts arent fully engaging. Make sure that your pads move easily thru the brackets and that the pins slide freely. Usually the bottom pins are frozen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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