EA82 "Hail Mary" pass repair

[GeneralDisorder]

3 hours ago, montermahan said:

 

Good informative article.  I guess there are 2 schools of thought 

 

 

.  I just go by what the ring manufactures suggest.    New times and new ways of doing things.  Thanks. MM

Reposted from a discussion on this very subject over on one of the Small Block Chevy forums I frequent. The attachment is from Chevrolet Power 5th edition published in 1984. Claiming you come from 'Merica school where they hone everything is simply ignorant of modern (well - if you consider 1984 "modern") best practices......

Yeah I've seen all the literature for and against. Half of that is perpetuated "common sense" that was made obsolete by improved ring manufacturing nearly 40 years ago. It does still apply to some very old designs, and to chrome rings, etc. It is not a one-size-fits-all situation though, and modern fuel injected engines don't typically wear out the bores like carbs did. My Vortec cylinders looked excellent at 177k miles. Better than that LT1 pictured even.

Also the ring manufacturers publish the honing criterion for machinists that are final honing to size after a rebore. So they need to publish the proper grit and required surface finish. That Wiseco article is perpetuating bull$hit. They aren't even a ring manufacturer. They make pistons. Which gives them some cred but not entirely enough IMO. Also it's mostly in reference to bikes which I have no experience with but the previous article I posted specifically was talking about then with exact opposite recommendation...... funny. The Hastings one lists a single grit - which I highly doubt would be suitable for all rings, of all thicknesses, in all applications - cast iron, chrome, and plasma-moly. There are a lot of variables..... also 220 seems impossibly rough honestly. That will tear the hell out of the rings. I bet they will seat alright - right before they overheat and lose their tension. I guess the old school THICK rings would probably survive. My guess would be with a loss of compression and a reduced lifespan.

My experience - especially with modern thin ring packs used on aftermarket pistons - is that honing (dingle ball, rough finish style) will produce too rough of a finish, does not control cross hatch angle, and does not address taper, out of round, ring ridges, etc.... leading to ring overheating and subsequent loss of ring tension. This leads to massive oil consumption and is then blamed on the rings "not seating". Which is exactly the opposite of what happened. They seated too much.

If you hone a cylinder with too much taper from ring wear the rings will flutter from the rapid expansion and contraction required by the tapered bore. So that's a waste of time.

The reality is that normal cast iron rings are EXTREMELY soft and will easily seat on a bore that is suitable for running. If there's not enough taper or out of round to require a bore job, then normal cast iron rings will seat almost immediately.

Thats from Chevrolet Power back in the 80's. As you can see they recommend a rigid hone in an automatic machine, and a surface finish of 500 grit. VERY fine. And not to do it at all if you can help it. Also important to note the quote here: "Present day piston rings are lapped during their manufacture and no longer require a rough bore finish for good seating".

I really believe that the manufacturers are just telling people what they want to hear because they know no back-yard re-builder is going to believe them if they tell them the truth. I used to work on industrial equipment and for a period of time after changing to sealed bearings Baldor electric motors pulled the Zerk fittings out of all their standard duty motors. This led to such a high call volume at their tech support center they put the damn fittings back, with the instructions that they only put in 1-2 pumps of grease annually. The grease went into an antechamber next to the bearing - which was sealed and could not accept grease anyway. They did this SOLELY to stop the tech support calls. So no one is going to convince me that manufacturers always have the "right" answers to these questions. They have the answers that produce the best customer satisfaction - be they right or wrong.

Honestly - if it worked I would do it. It's not as if it's difficult or expensive (dingle balls hones are cheap in the scheme of things) - even to have the machine shop power hone them..... But I have had to fix too many botched "rebuilds" by other shops and give customers the "bad news" about their oil consumption on their recent rebuild too many times. Several of my direct competitors like to dingle-ball their rebuilds and they burn oil like no other. I actually had one of these shops tell a customer who called to inquire if his recent rebuild was "honed or not" (he was very unhappy with his 1 quart every 500 mile rebuild) that they could do an oil change for him and that they have special oil that it "won't burn". WTF does that even mean?

GD

 

[montermahan]

Good luck.  From what I read here, the consensus is not to hone.  I guess Im old school and I honed mine.  I will learn from it if it goes south on me.

[rickyhils]

montermahan

Your experience here is of value to me. I have been steeped in learning much here, as I have NEVER done any rings on ANY car. I still have a few months to learn more before I tear into it. So, Just curious, when you honed that Subaru, how much of a ridge was at the top of the cylinder? And what were the diameter readings of the cylinder? If my salvage yard, as yet unknown, EA82 has a cylinder that is ovaled out, the honing tool would be bouncing around off the walls and give uneven results.  And I am ready to accept an unknown block that has sure failure written all over it once I actually start it up. I am dealing with a crap shoot with the crank and rod bearings. If it blows, then I will just LAUGH MY BUTT OFF. hee hee. But there is NO other option for this weathered EA82 block.  And my running Loyale still has life in its engine. Swapping out to test salvage yard engine will at least give me the opportunity to address clutch and heads on pulled engine.  First need to go to salvaged engine and verify [ chase] all bolt holes and look for cracks and warpage. And I'm looking forward to using my brain and hands to keep any car running reliably so as not to be junked. And Subaru made some very nice choices in their designs, so for sure a welcome learning experience for me. Will post results in the coming months. be well

[DaveT]

I have only done headgaskets on a handful of ea82s.   Never seen a ridge.  Always still have factory cross hatch  Hone marks.   Hoe deep are those marks? Not very, so probably hard to measure wear.

[montermahan]

The last one I did on my trike had very little ridge.  I was just wanting to freshen it up with bearings, rings and rebuilt heads.  I used a fine hone on the cylinders  (which I  have learned, is not necessary ).  I'm old, always used chilton and motors manuals (befor internet).  But there was not enough ridge to warrant use of ridge reamer.  Good luck.  UTube is a wonderful source.  I would recommend checking with GeneralDisorder on engine questions.  I am mainly an US auto repairman.  Thank's, MM

Edited September 16, 2019 by montermahan

[ferp420]

if the cylinders are bad enuff to need rings there bad enuff to need a honing in my mind anyway

i dont know how any ring is gona seal a pear shaped hole but i do know it can be sanded in to any shape

 

ive always worked under the if you build with junk dont exspect it to last vary long school of thought

it would be a interesting exsperiment to pull one apart rering it and hone one side and see which side burns more oil do the exsperament with say 5 engines

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GeneralDisorder]

If you hone a Subaru engine you will accomplish nothing and will cause more wear as the rings have to polish the bores back down. Period. End of discussion. 

I haven't honed an engine for rering over a decade. None of them use any significant amount of oil. I've seen plenty of honed engines that do though. 

GD

[ferp420]

gd i would hope and i know ya do know what can be rebuilt and what cant a parts jockey might not know that and try to rebuild it anyway resulting in burning oil

that might account for your better results

 

still if its bad enuff to need rings its gona need to be honed if its not that bad then it dosent need rings or honing other wise your replacing a part that dosent need replacing i can see why a shop would do it anyway though and if the cylinders are still round ie you can still see the hone marks from the factory all the way through the cylinder than its not gona need rings or a honing but you could at that point replace the rings with out honing but why if its pear shaped its never gona seal and needs to be replaced but ether reboring and or honing should get a few thousand more miles out of it before scaping it not realy a job for a shop but a shade tree can do it cost effectively with good results

 

 

Edited September 17, 2019 by ferp420

[FerGloyale]

3 hours ago, ferp420 said:

 

still if its bad enuff to need rings its gona need to be honed if its not that bad then it dosent need rings or honing other wise your replacing a part that dosent need replacing.

 

 

the problem with this line of thinking is you are assuming it's ALL the rings that are "bad".  When in fact, the compression rings are usually fine, it's just the oil rings that are the problem.  It's not a worn bore, or tired compression rings.  Just oil.

Often these engines burn oil simply because the owners don't change oil often enough, and the coked up burnt oil clogs the oil control rings.  That's it.  They are clogged and stuck in the land, and can't scrape away oil anymore so they burn.  Worse for boxers because gravity doesn't help keep the oil down.

The compression rings ARE FINE.  The bores are fine.  It's just clogged oil rings 90% of the time making them burn oil.  So honing out the bore, roughly, by hand, with a ball hone will produce a WAAAY more uneven, non-uniform finish than the factory.  

Plus, to properly hone, you need the block split, and if you do that then you better be ready to polish the crank and putt in new bearings.  Why?  Just to control oil consumption?  It's pointless.  EJ na engines mostly don't lose compression to ring wear.......they just sometimes need new oil control rings.

[idosubaru]

This is a brilliant synopsis of blocks and rings.  I owe y'all a dinner or 5.