Battery Deep cycling twice already, how long will this Forester battery last?

[drdavidzhang]

I have a 2015 Forester, I already cycled the battery twice, the first time was fine, but when I used the load tester to test this time, the dial did not bounce back to the "OK green area", however the car still starts:  "OK green area" 

Do you think the battery is at its end of life?

Compared to batteries from my other cars, I feel like Subaru's battery does not last long.
I tested battery based on this: diagnosis 

 

 

[GeneralDisorder]

It's a lead acid flooded battery in a highly computerized modern vehicle. They have an average life of 3 years according to AAA. 

Get an Odyssey if you want a battery that can handle cycling and will last for you. 10-15 year design life. 

GD

[drdavidzhang]

1 hour ago, GeneralDisorder said:

It's a lead acid flooded battery in a highly computerized modern vehicle. They have an average life of 3 years according to AAA. 

Get an Odyssey if you want a battery that can handle cycling and will last for you. 10-15 year design life. 

GD

three years does not sound long  enough, this is my 4th year, it is possible I can survive another year, I hope I can break a record.  What is the longest  battery lifespan people got from their original Forester?  

[Rampage]

The normal life expectancy of a lead acid battery is 4-5 years. I have only seen a few last 8 years. Batteries used to ship without acid in them. The acid was put in when it was sold to the customer. That is the start if its life span. Now the acid is put when it is made. It will set at the manufacture then sold to a corporation and set in their warehouse then move to a store and set on their shelf, then we take it home. Who knows how old it is when we get it.

When the battery is used the lead plates form an oxide coating on them that insulates the plates from the acid (weak). When the battery is charged that knocks the oxide coating off the plates and it falls to the bottom of the cell. If charging does not remove all the oxide from the plates it will be a little bit weak. The lead plates are raised from the bottom. If the oxide builds up and touches the plates they are shorted and that cell becomes dead. Now it would read 10 volts instead of 12 volts.

More lead plates and larger surface area gives more cranking amps. It is still 2 volts per cell.

A lead acid 12 volt battery is supposed to be charged with a constant voltage of 14 volts. Newer vehicles have raised that a little bit.

[drdavidzhang]

17 hours ago, Rampage said:

The normal life expectancy of a lead acid battery is 4-5 years. I have only seen a few last 8 years. Batteries used to ship without acid in them. The acid was put in when it was sold to the customer. That is the start if its life span. Now the acid is put when it is made. It will set at the manufacture then sold to a corporation and set in their warehouse then move to a store and set on their shelf, then we take it home. Who knows how old it is when we get it.

When the battery is used the lead plates form an oxide coating on them that insulates the plates from the acid (weak). When the battery is charged that knocks the oxide coating off the plates and it falls to the bottom of the cell. If charging does not remove all the oxide from the plates it will be a little bit weak. The lead plates are raised from the bottom. If the oxide builds up and touches the plates they are shorted and that cell becomes dead. Now it would read 10 volts instead of 12 volts.

More lead plates and larger surface area gives more cranking amps. It is still 2 volts per cell.

A lead acid 12 volt battery is supposed to be charged with a constant voltage of 14 volts. Newer vehicles have raised that a little bit.

It would be nice if I could get 8 years. I would like to replace it with a bigger battery because they all cost the same, but it is wrong size, so in the past I did this:

youtube

Now I am thinking may be a larger outer dimension may not be the optimal. To get the best deal with the same price, see if you agree with my arguments:
1. the outer dimension may not be as important.
2. as long as CCA is higher, the biggest may not be the optimal. This is because to get a higher CCA, you may just need to increase the effective area, i.e. thinner plates and more plates, this higher CCA may not mean that the lifespan is longer.
3. may be it should be the weights. The walmart site lists the $50 battery weight as
65: 47.2 lbs
24F: 44.4 lbs
higher weights mean more lead plates and acid, hopefully this will be a better indicator.

[Rampage]

In our 95 and 97 I use the 35 series with 640 CCA at 0 degrees F. It is around a hundred bucks.

It fits the box and is just the right height and the terminals are correct.

The 65 has reversed posts + and -.

I never looked at the weight. I go by size and CCA.

I noticed Walmart does not say at what temperature the CCA is, could be 32 or 0 degrees.

[drdavidzhang]

38 minutes ago, Rampage said:

In our 95 and 97 I use the 35 series with 640 CCA at 0 degrees F. It is around a hundred bucks.

It fits the box and is just the right height and the terminals are correct.

The 65 has reversed posts + and -.

I never looked at the weight. I go by size and CCA.

I noticed Walmart does not say at what temperature the CCA is, could be 32 or 0 degrees.

if the walmart $50 can last 5 years, then it beats a $100 battery that can last 8 years (because 2*5=10 years). So the cheapest wins. After price, the second factor should be the weights for the same brand and type of batteries, I think.

[Rampage]

If it lasts that long. Like I said before, you don't know how old it is when you get it.

[Rampage]

More battery info.

A car battery should not be deep cycled. This page will explain why.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/archive/can_the_lead_acid_battery_compete_in_modern_times

 

I have not looked at the following, but it does sound interesting.

German medical officer Wilhelm Sinsteden investigated different electrodes including silver, lead, tin, copper, gold, platinum

https://books.google.com/books?id=4KDvAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=german+gold+acid+battery&source=bl&ots=LtebJb6Vv5&sig=ACfU3U29jmo7kqdM407jWdBF-QsD77vesA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiWmcOMydXkAhU_GDQIHaV4ATo4ChDoATADegQIBxAB

 

[drdavidzhang]

3 hours ago, Rampage said:

More battery info.

A car battery should not be deep cycled. This page will explain why.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/archive/can_the_lead_acid_battery_compete_in_modern_times

 

I have not looked at the following, but it does sound interesting.

German medical officer Wilhelm Sinsteden investigated different electrodes including silver, lead, tin, copper, gold, platinum

https://books.google.com/books?id=4KDvAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=german+gold+acid+battery&source=bl&ots=LtebJb6Vv5&sig=ACfU3U29jmo7kqdM407jWdBF-QsD77vesA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiWmcOMydXkAhU_GDQIHaV4ATo4ChDoATADegQIBxAB

 

did not notice anti-cycling in the article of your link. Anyway  last year my Forester could not start at the airport waiting area, I asked a few people to provide a jump, many people did not want to help, only the 5th person I asked agreed to give it a jump. After I could not start at the airport waiting area, I felt I had little choice but to deep cycling.

So this is interesting, which choice will provide longer lifespan:
1. deep cycling, knowing it will shorten its life
2. not deep cycling, knowing it may die next morning. When you are frustrated, you will may a call to replaced it sooner than #1.

[forester2002s]

In my experience, over many years and with many cars, once a battery starts playing up, you might as well replace it sooner rather than later.

You can try and be nice to the battery, but it won't buy you much time.

[Mike104]

3 hours ago, forester2002s said:

In my experience, over many years and with many cars, once a battery starts playing up, you might as well replace it sooner rather than later.

You can try and be nice to the battery, but it won't buy you much time.

I try to replace them at my convenience rather than letting the battery decide when it's going to die (usually at the most inconvenient place and time)

[drdavidzhang]

24 minutes ago, Mike104 said:

I try to replace them at my convenience rather than letting the battery decide when it's going to die (usually at the most inconvenient place and time)

The question is the prediction. You replaced it at your convenience, but what if that old battery could have lasted another 2 years?

[Mike104]

Generally you can do a load test of the battery that will let you know the status of the battery.  Once it gets too low I'd rather change it at my convenience.  $100 is not worth me risking a dead battery at the wrong place/time.  Your car do as you see fit. Three to five years is average for most lead acid batteries these days.  Most are made by one or two manufacturers.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Mike104

[drdavidzhang]

14 hours ago, Mike104 said:

Generally you can do a load test of the battery that will let you know the status of the battery.  Once it gets too low I'd rather change it at my convenience.  $100 is not worth me risking a dead battery at the wrong place/time.  Your car do as you see fit. Three to five years is average for most lead acid batteries these days.  Most are made by one or two manufacturers.

Another question I have: many people say the lifespan is 3 to 5 years, should the lifespan be measured as the number of times the charge-discharge cycle? If I don't use the car, does the battery age?

[FerGloyale]

1 hour ago, drdavidzhang said:

Another question I have: many people say the lifespan is 3 to 5 years, should the lifespan be measured as the number of times the charge-discharge cycle? If I don't use the car, does the battery age?

Ideally, A car battery should not be "Deep Cycling"  or having full "charge-discharge cycle".

It should only draw down a little during starting and top back up and stay maintained by the alternator. 

On 9/14/2019 at 9:55 PM, drdavidzhang said:

three years does not sound long  enough, this is my 4th year, it is possible I can survive another year, I hope I can break a record.  What is the longest  battery lifespan people got from their original Forester?  

That honestly doesn't look like the Original OE Subaru battery.  I can't say for sure but I didn't think they shipped from the factory with retail branded "intersate" batteries.

 

On 9/15/2019 at 8:38 PM, drdavidzhang said:

if the walmart $50 can last 5 years, then it beats a $100 battery that can last 8 years (because 2*5=10 years). So the cheapest wins. After price, the second factor should be the weights for the same brand and type of batteries, I think.

This doesn't take several things into account.

1) The cost of inflation.  and the fickleness of the timing of "sales" .  The second "5 year" battery may not be available for $50, might be $75 or $90 by then.....we don't know.  Sure you could argue that your $75 purchase will be "equivalent to 5 years previous $50, but wage inflation has been and likely to be slower than retail costs inflation of durable goods.

2) Opportunity cost of the consumed time you have to spend diagnosing, shopping for, and installing the second "5 year" battery.  And for many folks the cost of paying to have it installed.

3) Incurred expenses when the Battery breaks down.  This could be nothing if you have AAA reasonably close to home.......Or $600 for a tow and or a hotel if not.  Now, this could happen to the 10 year battery at the end of it's life also, but with the "5-year" you've run that risk and potentially incur those expenses twice.

4)...Not really an objective part of the equation.......But subjectively, anecdotally, I would not bet on a $50 walmart battery to EVER last 5 years.  So you may be looking at $150 to get 3 "5-year" $50 Walmart batteries to last for 10 years.  

On 9/15/2019 at 8:38 PM, drdavidzhang said:

 After price, the second factor should be the weights for the same brand and type of batteries, I think.

 

Well......Actually the best choice from a given source and price, should be the correct size and min. CCA for the vehicle.  Improperly sized batteries that don't fit the hold down correctly or stretch the wiring to reach posts are a hazard.

If you are weighing differences between brands and costs, you'd think since lead is a cost, that the battery with more (heavier) would be more better and more expensive.  But that actually may NOT be the case.

Cheap batteries have fewer plates, and often these individual plates are thicker.  Thick plates are easier to cast and handle, and are more durable in the battery without having to do as much engineering of the rest of the structure.  Cheaper, easier to make, clunkier low quality items are often heavier than their more expensive high quality counterparts.

Higher end Batteries have more, thinner plates stacked closer together.  This results in the volume of the battery having a lower ratio lead to space between.  The acid weighs less than lead so the battery ends up weighing less.

You're best bet to get a long lasting battery is to not buy the cheapest option.  The best battery for the car is the one that fits right.  Seems pretty obvious.

[drdavidzhang]

22 minutes ago, FerGloyale said:

Ideally, A car battery should not be "Deep Cycling"  or having full "charge-discharge cycle".

It should only draw down a little during starting and top back up and stay maintained by the alternator. 

yes, we should avoid the cycling, but what if you passed your specific weight but failed the load test? Is cycling the only option?

 I think maybe in my case, what I had done may not be defined as "deep cycling". I don't have a professional deep cycle equipment. As shown in the video, after I charged full according to the hydrometer (at this point, if I start the engine, it will start fine,) I use the load tester to see if the 100A discharge would make the dial turn back. I will discharge it if the test fails.
I only had to do this one or two cycles, I did not have to do this many times. I did not use the 6A setting, only the 2A setting, I hope it only had minimal abuse.

32 minutes ago, FerGloyale said:

That honestly doesn't look like the Original OE Subaru battery.  I can't say for sure but I didn't think they shipped from the factory with retail branded "intersate" batteries.

yes, correct the interstate battery is not the original. I experimented with 4 different batteries to study this issue, ruining one with the epsom salt (another story). The Subaru original battery failing is recorded at this timestamp here: original subaru battery failed

37 minutes ago, FerGloyale said:

This doesn't take several things into account.

1) The cost of inflation.  and the fickleness of the timing of "sales" .  The second "5 year" battery may not be available for $50, might be $75 or $90 by then.....we don't know.  Sure you could argue that your $75 purchase will be "equivalent to 5 years previous $50, but wage inflation has been and likely to be slower than retail costs inflation of durable goods.

2) Opportunity cost of the consumed time you have to spend diagnosing, shopping for, and installing the second "5 year" battery.  And for many folks the cost of paying to have it installed.

3) Incurred expenses when the Battery breaks down.  This could be nothing if you have AAA reasonably close to home.......Or $600 for a tow and or a hotel if not.  Now, this could happen to the 10 year battery at the end of it's life also, but with the "5-year" you've run that risk and potentially incur those expenses twice.

4)...Not really an objective part of the equation.......But subjectively, anecdotally, I would not bet on a $50 walmart battery to EVER last 5 years.  So you may be looking at $150 to get 3 "5-year" $50 Walmart batteries to last for 10 years.  

agree with you some of the points are valid for some people. Another point is that if the original battery can last 5 years, and you plan to sell your car after 10 years, then there is no need to spend more money for those years you may not own the car.

I have bought two Walmart batteries in the past, they are fine. I intended to keep my car more than 10 years, after 1 year of putting in a new Walmart battery (a third battery), then this car was crashed: List of new things put in the car before crash

51 minutes ago, FerGloyale said:

Well......Actually the best choice from a given source and price, should be the correct size and min. CCA for the vehicle.  Improperly sized batteries that don't fit the hold down correctly or stretch the wiring to reach posts are a hazard.

If you are weighing differences between brands and costs, you'd think since lead is a cost, that the battery with more (heavier) would be more better and more expensive.  But that actually may NOT be the case.

Cheap batteries have fewer plates, and often these individual plates are thicker.  Thick plates are easier to cast and handle, and are more durable in the battery without having to do as much engineering of the rest of the structure.  Cheaper, easier to make, clunkier low quality items are often heavier than their more expensive high quality counterparts.

Higher end Batteries have more, thinner plates stacked closer together.  This results in the volume of the battery having a lower ratio lead to space between.  The acid weighs less than lead so the battery ends up weighing less.

You're best bet to get a long lasting battery is to not buy the cheapest option.  The best battery for the car is the one that fits right.  Seems pretty obvious.

I have bought the interstate batteries from Costco $88 with correct size, or Walmart $50 batteries with wrong size, one inconvenience is to add water when the level is low, but then we need to add wiper blade fluid anyway, it is not much time waste. On the other hand, after I cycled the subaru original battery, it does cost my time and caused worry, so the next time it has sign of failing, it will be gone.  

[heartless]

4 hours ago, drdavidzhang said:

Another question I have: many people say the lifespan is 3 to 5 years, should the lifespan be measured as the number of times the charge-discharge cycle? If I don't use the car, does the battery age?

Yes, it does.. there is parasitic drain on the battery all the time that it is hooked up.. clock memory, various other computerized bits drawing small amounts of power all the time, running or not. The more computerized stuff there is in the vehicle, the more drain there is, the shorter the life of the battery.

Heat and cold also affect battery life - even when they are not in actual use.

what is with people always thinking they should buy the cheapest thing they can find, then whine & complain about it not lasting or working right?

Buy a quality battery of the correct size, take care of it (ei: keep your charging system in good order) and it will last at least as long as that Walmart special, most likely longer.

[drdavidzhang]

41 minutes ago, heartless said:

Yes, it does.. there is parasitic drain on the battery all the time that it is hooked up.. clock memory, various other computerized bits drawing small amounts of power all the time, running or not. The more computerized stuff there is in the vehicle, the more drain there is, the shorter the life of the battery.

Heat and cold also affect battery life - even when they are not in actual use.

what is with people always thinking they should buy the cheapest thing they can find, then whine & complain about it not lasting or working right?

Buy a quality battery of the correct size, take care of it (ei: keep your charging system in good order) and it will last at least as long as that Walmart special, most likely longer.

If a cheap one last 5 years, what if the expensive one can only last 6 years or even 4 years? Can the number of years of warranties an reliable indicator the lifespan?

[heartless]

there is no guarantee the cheap one is going to last 5 yrs either..

stop nit picking and clutching at straws.

[FerGloyale]

47 minutes ago, drdavidzhang said:

If a cheap one last 5 years, what if the expensive one can only last 6 years or even 4 years? Can the number of years of warranties an reliable indicator the lifespan?

 

I personally ONLY buy batteries with 72 month or 84 month warranties. (6 or 7 years)

They usually last at least 5 and fail close to the 65~70 month mark.  At that point the pro-rated "warranty" will only take about 5 bucks off the price of the new one, if you buy it from them again.  Warranties are mostly scams, but it gives you a good idea of what the battery life should be.

[idosubaru]

All this money talk and you’re buying wiper fluid?!  You're in for a treat! Many gas stations have FREE squeegees, find one, or carry a box of DIY wet free napkins from McDonalds! free and take less time than battery research, equipment, and blowing up batteries with salt, and it’s free free free!

I commend your focus on data. Get some good data and let the world know.  data driven, useful, and economic info is good.  Keep in mind battery life is erratic and statistically a sample size of a few is all but meaningless.  

If my battery lasts 5 years and cost $74 that’s .00074 cents per mile, one of the most benign costs of vehicle ownership.

NICO genius boosts = who cares when I replace my battery!  maximize battery life with no risk of stranding, multiple uses and functionality, all in a tiny package. Win win win win win......

[drdavidzhang]

4 hours ago, FerGloyale said:

 

I personally ONLY buy batteries with 72 month or 84 month warranties. (6 or 7 years)

They usually last at least 5 and fail close to the 65~70 month mark.  At that point the pro-rated "warranty" will only take about 5 bucks off the price of the new one, if you buy it from them again.  Warranties are mostly scams, but it gives you a good idea of what the battery life should be.

Where did you get your 72 month battery?

FYI,

Walmart:
$50 ValuePower: 12V car battery with 1-year free replacement warranty.
$94 EverStart Maxx: An included five-year warranty (three years free replacement and two years prorated) provides peace of mind.

homedepot: 
$89 SPRINTER 12 volts Lead Acid 6-Cell 35 Group Size 550 Cold Cranking Amps (BCI) Auto Battery
    2-year free replacement
$99 SPRINTER MAX 12 volts Lead Acid 6-Cell 35 Group Size 650 Cold Cranking Amps (BCI) Auto Battery
    3-year free replacement

Costco:
$79 interstate: three years free replacement.

[drdavidzhang]

3 hours ago, idosubaru said:

All this money talk and you’re buying wiper fluid?!  You're in for a treat! Many gas stations have FREE squeegees, find one, or carry a box of DIY wet free napkins from McDonalds! free and take less time than battery research, equipment, and blowing up batteries with salt, and it’s free free free!

I commend your focus on data. Get some good data and let the world know.  data driven, useful, and economic info is good.  Keep in mind battery life is erratic and statistically a sample size of a few is all but meaningless.  

If my battery lasts 5 years and cost $74 that’s .00074 cents per mile, one of the most benign costs of vehicle ownership.

NICO genius boosts = who cares when I replace my battery!  maximize battery life with no risk of stranding, multiple uses and functionality, all in a tiny package. Win win win win win......

One question is where to buy your $74 battery. My thinking is since big stores such as costco, walmart, homedepot have high volume,  they can sell the same quality at lower price. The smaller stores auto specialty stores such as autozone, oreilly, pepboy may give you better service, but higher price for commodity products.

[idosubaru]

6 hours ago, drdavidzhang said:

One question is where to buy your $74 battery. My thinking is since big stores such as costco, walmart, homedepot have high volume,  they can sell the same quality at lower price. The smaller stores auto specialty stores such as autozone, oreilly, pepboy may give you better service, but higher price for commodity products.

LOL LOL LOL  I knew you’d ask about that price!   There are at least two sources for cheaper batteries.  Keep looking.

Until last year I paid $60 for batteries at advance auto. Use a $40 online discount code on $100 battery, buy online and pick up in store. I’ve done it on my phone in the parking lot.  The code was TRT41, I used it dozens of times. But that code is gone and their prices went up. 

You’re not nearly excited enough about the free windshield wiper fluid. 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2019 by idosubaru