Timing belt kits - AISIN, MITSUBOSHI? here we go again

[Mitchy]

I need a little help and guidance with purchase of the AISIN TKF-003 belt/pulley/pump and tensioner kit...

As the Legacy is running so well and giving no trouble, I thought it was about time to think about renewing the timing belt and pullies. And why not the water pump too?

I often see AISIN mentioned, along with Mitsuboshi for the belt.

I got searching and come up nil in Europe, all is SKF or GATES branded kit: I can shop around and cherry pick brand components I want, but it seems unnecessary.

I last did the Forester belt change with the Gates kit: EU made belt and KOYO JAPAN stamped parts. 40,000 miles and no problem so far. No pump swap that time.

I fancy the AISIN kit TKF-003 for the Legacy and only find it on eBay or US websites.

The eBay vendor, when asked, answered that ALL the parts in the TKF-003 kit are AISIN brand.

I’m not sure if that is correct, can anybody shed light on the actual contents of the TKF-003 kit?

Thanks in advance

[idosubaru]

the kit pictured is a 1996 and earlier US market Subaru timing kit, is that what you're looking for?

buy it, i'ts got everything you need except the thermostat. 

you can also buy from subaru if parts sourcing is a problem. 

[nvu]

I'm fairly sure Aisin doesn't make the idler pulleys, esp the cogged one.  Have them take a picture to confirm.

[Mike104]

Koyo or NSK generally make the idlers/cogged pulley.  NSF supplies the Tensioner assembly 

[Mitchy]

My Japan built ‘97 ej22 has the two-piece tensioner as pictured.

I am waiting for a more detailed answer from the vendor of the Aisin kit.

 

Elsewhere, I have found a decently priced kit using GMB pulleys, and a Mitsuboshi belt, the water pump I can find separately

Any experience with GMB conponents?

I have not read any bad reviews of GMB, and the price is really good:

 

[Mitchy]

@idosubaru

The thermostat I bought a few weeks ago along with rad hoses and cap, from Subaru.

 

[Mitchy]

Doh!!

..and suddenly I remembered that I have sitting in the cupboard, a new pump...

Edited September 17, 2019 by Mitchy

[idosubaru]

I’ve used a number of GMB kits before and have a few GMB timing boxes now.  in general I’d avoid them for long term vehicles, valuable cars, interference engines, etc.  I’ll install them on rusted out beaters that have maybe two years left before the frame rots through.  

Don’t get me wrong, they’re decent enough and don’t have high failure rates so you’d probably get by fine. but nearly every aftermarket kit has higher failure rates than Subaru OEM. GMB doesn’t have a magic supply of OEM cheap parts no one else can find. Those two piece tensioners are like $150, id wonder if that’s s knock off or rebuild and looks like OEM.   When it comes to parts that will strand you, or interference engines, I prefer the highest quality you can get if they don’t cost much more anyway. 

If someone begged me to install a GMB kit for them and they want to save a few bucks on your car i would but first I  recommend to save a few dollars:

1.  Subaru belt and pulleys only (no tensioner)

2. Subaru belt and the lower cogged idler (by far it is the one that fails) and I’ll inspect the the others.  The other ones very rarely fail.  If you can DIY they can be inspected in 2 years or 40,000 miles in less than an hour, they’re super easy. 

Those two piece tensioners don’t fail, I’ve never seen it but I’m sure it happens sometimes. They were routinely reused and I’d even convert new Subaru’s to the old style before they got old.  If yours is in good shape, the seal isn’t wet - It happens so rarely and you already have a water pump, just buy the timing belt and pulleys from Subaru.  I’d almost rather keep the OEM original tensioner and not install a new aftermarket unless it’s OEM new (not rebuilt)  

3. If they didn’t like those options I’d still install the GMB kit without much concern but to me there’s just no compelling reason to do so and depending on the car/person I’d tell them I’m not touching it if there’s issues ! Haha  

That said - I only work for free and don’t charge labor, so it’s easier for people to accept the higher cost parts.  If you’re paying labor then the higher Costs changes the decision making process. 

Edited September 17, 2019 by idosubaru

[FerGloyale]

GMB is chinese garbage parts.

If you see those green bearing seals, run.

The Aisin boxed kits are fully Japanese parts, from what I have seen.  NTN tensioner, Koyo rollers, Mitsuboshi belt.  Just used one of those kits for a 08 WRX.

[Mitchy]

Well @idosubaru

That is some solid advice.

I intend to inspect the existing parts first, according to a sticker it was serviced (belt replacement) by a Bosch-service garage only 27,000 miles ago. 

I presently have no idea if the pulleys or tensioner were replaced, nor the brand of belt installed. I did peek inside the cover though to see which tensioner is fitted. It is earlier two-piece.

As I am generally paranoid of garage service workmanship and parts brand selection (bueno, barato y bonito is the common maxim), I look to change what I can as soon as I have the engine face exposed, that is, oil pump seal, crank seal, camshaft seals, water pump, and belt components.

I would not change the tensioner yet if it shows no signs of failure. But it is reassuring to have a fresh one on the shelf for ‘that moment’.....This is a mere 90,000 mile EJ22, but is also 23 years old.

 

[Mitchy]

Thanks @FerGloyale

The price is tempting, but I never heard of GMB before. I researched and saw Germany mentioned, but as usual this is nowadays no guarantee.

Well, two negative views make a positive;

I shall stick with what I know, and source the NTN/KOYO/Subaru parts.

 

Thanks again for your valuable opinions.

[Mitchy]

In general I go for OE Subaru ‘consumibles’ when I can. If my car lasted 22 years in this condition before I got my hands on it then that says something.

We had the oil separator plate leak on our ‘99 Forester, so without thinking about it I bought the Subaru Steel one. And while I was at it I bought a clutch set and flywheel from Subaru too, just in case. It was 650 euros, but was I glad I had when I saw what was inside the bell housing.

I do all my maintenance, off grid, and the high OE parts costs are way offset by the labour savings. By the way, generally speaking  Subaru dealer parts here on the Islands are twice the price of the US counterparts, FYI. (There is only one deslership) and there are relatively few Subarus on the Island.

Now you have me thinking that my old OE Forester belt pulleys might still be salvageable...though I believe they may be a little wobbly.

- I keep everything that is still shiny

[3Pin]

I stopped using gates due to the crap components ( especially water pumps) they have shifted to.  AISIN are not cheap, but they use all higher quality parts and are a lot cheaper long run than going back in to swap out a leaky or failed pump or ......idler!!!!

[Rampage]

Mitchy

Look at the two smooth pullies in both pictures you posted. In the top pic they are side by side and one is flipped over in the second pic one is on the left and one on the right.

In the first pic they have 2 bearings per pully. In the second pic of the GMB and you'll notice they only have 1 bearing per pully.

I tried GMB once and those two pullies lasted less than a year. The water pump from the kit leaked at the shaft seal in 3 weeks. The belt was Dayco so I reused it on both repairs.

[Mitchy]

@Rampage

well spotted!

One could get quite obsessed with this, I think I am now!

I was certain that I was not going to find a top-notch bargain kit, except now I find a true NTN/SNR kit (#KD481.00, no tensioner piston, no pump) for 104€ (about 115$) 

and a genuine SKF kit (#VKMA98000, no tensioner piston, no pump) for 97€ or 105$, on a major european parts supplier website.

Perhaps they get a good deal on bulk purchases..

I have read all the comments about not buying anything that is not ‘made in Japan’, but I believe that nowadays the quality is pretty standard when it comes to global OE brands, like SKF/NTN et al.

I bought a cheap Gates kit for the Forester and I got an EU made belt with SKF (Japan) double bearing rollers, NTN (Japan) tensioner (one-piece) and a Koyo (Korea) toothed roller.

Failing that, I could buy the pulleys (NTN for the tensioner pulley, SKF for the rest) on the same website, and buy a new Genuine Subaru UNITTA (Japan) belt I am eyeballing on eBay-

Total cost 90€ !!

I have the pump alteady, and fingers crossed, my tensioner piston is still good!

The trouble is that the Aisin kit is going to cost me a small fortune in transport and import taxes, I cannot find it anywhere except in the Americas. - I live in the Mediterranean on an island!

Next up is to pull off the belt cover and see exactly what is driving my camshafts, who knows, I may get a lovely surprise and find a Mitsuboshi belt with only 25k miles on it and Japanese rollers.

But judging by some of the other critical and ‘more visible’ repairs that have been done, I rather think not. Gates at the very best but most likely BluePrint or similar.

Then on to Casa Subaru’ to see what four rollers will cost me there; - Likely more than the complete Aisin kit imported from the US!

Enough, 

thanks again for everyone who has chipped-in, what a community!

valuable words indeed. 

 

[idosubaru]

Subaru parts are built by other companies like NTN, NSK, etc to Subaru’s specifications. These companies can then also supply those to other companies for resale.  

The quality doesn’t have to be the same for Subaru supplied parts and aftermarket supplies parts for the exact same part.  but Subaru is small, and parts market not discerning enough, to make it worth their time to do anything but make one part for both. Though storage, packaging, delivery, and other non manufacturing qualities factors could skip Subaru QA. But this is all uncertain conjecture...moving along....

that doesn’t matter - the point is that yes those parts are available from other companies and yes you can often find the Subaru OEM pulleys aftermarket.  Like AISIn kits.  

One issue is suppliers putting together timing kits don’t keep using the same company for the same parts.  Gates could use OEM pulleys for a time and then other brands later, it’s still the same kit for the same motor for their parts catalog.  That moving target can be problematic.  But buying one at a time and verifying the manufacturer will help get the right part each time if you’re unsure what a given company supplies.  

[Mitchy]

Epilog:

I have bought the Subaru-branded Unitta belt on eBay and the SKF plain and toothed rollers and SKF tensioner pulley from Autodoc, the largest online parts supplier in Europe.

AFA I can see,  these SKF parts use double bearings. They could have been made anywhere, though I am certain that the SKF quality will speak for itself when I have them in my hands.

Roughly 100 dollars delivered to my door is not too bad.

My only local Subaru dealer wants way more than double.

I can buy the Exedy clutch kit with the difference, with change enough for some genuine cam and crank seals too.

Next.....

 

[Rampage]

Good.

Looks like you're Legacy is going to come out on top of this ordeal.

[Mitchy]

14 hours ago, Rampage said:

Good.

Looks like you're Legacy is going to come out on top of this ordeal.

Haha!

Yeah this lovely low mileage Leggy deserves it.

The DAYCO belt (I just peeked under the end cover to check) only has 25,000 miles on it, but is now 9 years old. The idlers’ history is uncertain, so the worst case is that they are 22 years old with 90,000 miles on them. This is why I am getting on with the maintenance + or - urgently.

And is there a good reason NOT to change the cam&crank seals while I am in there?

The clutch change can wait, but if I already have it in my parts stash, I can always find the right moment.... I’m a ‘transmission-out’ clutch changer.

[Rampage]

I like the DAYCO belt, never had a problem with one yet. The outside of any timing belt will start to get shinny, therefore slippery, and that drives the water pump, so replace it.

Also, I have yet to see the factory tensioner fail.

When you do the clutch, pull the flywheel and change the rear main seal on the crank. The parts man at Subaru told me to smear a little silicone gasket compound on the outside of the seal to help it slide in easier. It goes in flush with the outer edge of the block. Be careful because there is no lip on the inside to stop it from going in too far. That happened to me once and I had to run screws in it to pull it out.

It is hard to put mileage failure on seals because heat and age is hard on them. The best thing to do is replace them while you are there. If they do leak, the oil does not get on the belt, but it makes a mess on the underside of the block and frame.

[FerGloyale]

1 hour ago, Rampage said:

 

When you do the clutch, pull the flywheel and change the rear main seal on the crank. The parts man at Subaru told me to smear a little silicone gasket compound on the outside of the seal to help it slide in easier. It goes in flush with the outer edge of the block. Be careful because there is no lip on the inside to stop it from going in too far. That happened to me once and I had to run screws in it to pull it out.

 

Honestly, if the rear main isn't leaking, leave it alone.  Seen more leaks after changing than before.  It's really best to change the seal while the case is split.  It can be replaced by pry out/pop in new one but it's easy to bugger up.  Unless you see signs of significant leakage, I recommend leaving it alone.

Reseal the rear separator plate (replace with metal if you have plastic one.)

[Mitchy]

Good advice.

I cut my teeth changing the clutch on the Forester- It had the oil separator plate leak,  sudden and plentiful!

As I was unsure, before dismantling, where the leak came from, so I made the effort and bought the new metal plate and screws AND a Subaru rear crank seal, just in case. I was fairly certain it was going to be the plastic plate, due to the suddenness and quantity of leaked oil.

I also bought the clutch and flywheel because there had been some juddering when cold, and all that oil pouring through there got me thinking ‘ now or never’.The car had 175000 kms at that point.

As it happens, the crank seal seemed OK with some very minor weeping, but I didn’t fancy going through all that again for a leaky seal later in the day, so I replaced it too. Tapping it in all around slowly slowly until flush with the face. I did plenty of homework, and have the workshop manual too, plus some common sense to some extent!

3 years later it is still dry as a bone underneath,  Clutch smooth and light.

So the Legacy will get the same preventative treatment, using the old addage, “whilst you’re down there....”

Edited September 19, 2019 by Mitchy