ea82 lifter tick & bubbles in oil

[wysubey]

Been reading around about the common lifter TOD on these engines. Here's my observations & hypothesis.

Cold first start doesn't always tick. But if I rev above 2.5k while cold that usually starts ticking. Yesterday I ran it less than 5min to re-park, and noticed the oil bubbles on dipstick. Once warmed up, no ticking this engine purrs nicely. I daily drive this car 90+ miles on my commute at 60mph and it has plenty of power, never gets too hot even passing at WOT and A/C running. Didn't tick at all this summer, I bet the colder weather is a factor. 

Recent work: coolant flush with water and filled with Xerex Asian 50/50 coolant. Added block heater. Oil change with Amazon synthetic blend 10w30 less than 1000mi ago. Replaced thermostat, rad hoses, heater hoses and rad cap. Spark plugs, wires, disty rotor & cap. I haven't touched the fuel system besides the filter. Timing belt was done at 148k, currently 174k on the clock. May be 10+ years on the belt as this car sat quite a bit with the previous 2 owners based on the label. 

Theory: the oil pump seals are going/gone and so the pump aerates the oil until it gets up to temp and seals seat. Any oil additives I could consider? I've used at-205 re-seal with good results for oil leaks. 

[DaveT]

Reseal the pump with new seals.  Run Amsoil 10w-40.  Once in a while I get a little lifter tic, but then it goes away.  I run 2 of these cars, so sometimes one sits for a few days.

[STi 22B]

Definitely reseal the oil pump and pay close attention to the spindle shaft that comes out front of the pump. Check for any wear where the front oil pump shaft seal sits and if the wear groove is too much, then I'd recommend replacing the oil pump gears.

[Steptoe]

Modern cars, modern service procedures at the stealerships that have an interest in no troubles during warranty period will add a pre change oil cleaner to your invoice at least. You used a coolant system cleaner, so maybe after 30 years an oil system cleaner cannot hurt too much

A block heater ...brrr...oil grade recommations need to take in your climate

I use a diesel spec oil for its supposed better ( more?) detergents in the mix. Been doing this for multivalve engine lifters for 25 years and no problems and cleaner innards

15-20 years ago an engineer's institute fix and tell page quoted the EA82 as a victim of over filling sump causing oil aeration causing noisy lifters

Edited October 9, 2019 by Steptoe

[idosubaru]

I have an entire post dedicated to HLA noise. Find it and read it. 

First change the oil. 

1. Reseal the oil pump. Use Subaru seals and clean and inspect all sealing surfaces. 

2. Replace the oil pump. They’re not available new so you’ve got to work to find one.

Those two steps have fixed every one I’ve seen over the last 20 years.  Friend was posting about his years ago.  He resealed it twice and still noisy.  Everyone was giving advice on cleaning, different oils, additives, and redoing the engine/HLAs. Shipped a pump without telling him and it’s been years with no ticking.  It’s real simple if you ignore the typical guessing and conjectures.  Reseal. Replace. HLAs. Done.  

If it’s got 200,000+ miles, poor oil change history, and/or heavy use then HLA or HLA seat wear is more likely.  

Sometimes different oil helps, or seems to, but it’s probably a band aid for some other issue and it usually doesn’t totally go away or comes back. 

Ive seen two seized HLAs but those were run with blown headgaskets and multiple times running hot for almost a year.  If the engine has seen abuse like that pull the HLAs and see if any won’t compress in a c-clamp or vice. Seized ones will be galled internally and won’t move.

Edited October 10, 2019 by idosubaru

[idosubaru]

What would be nice is to look at a known “ticker” and a known good pump and compare the two and find out what exactly causes it. Then maybe the existing pumps could be remedied rather than trying to replace unavailable parts. 

Theyre all all rusted away around here so I don’t really see any any more so I haven’t had to repair one in a few years and won’t see enough to worry about it any more. 

15 years ago I could have easily done this and had a box full to choose from, but they were available new or I had good used ones so the need wasn’t there. 

[Steptoe]

Is an oil pressure number indicative of bad oil pump causing this lifter tick?

One of our earlier ones in 1996 had a tick that went quiet as you let clutch out to give gentle load. A lifter free additive went in, took 500 km to resolve issue, then sold to mechanic full of praise for its condition

[DaveT]

I have never seen any correlation between tick and oil pressure.

On the several I have owned, an oil pump reseal, and the eventual cleaning done by the Amsoil 100% synthetic 10W-40 made it go away.  I have seen at least a couple of medium gunky engines clean up inside after running that oil for 6 months to a year.

[idosubaru]

5 hours ago, Steptoe said:

Is an oil pressure number indicative of bad oil pump causing this lifter tick?

One of our earlier ones in 1996 had a tick that went quiet as you let clutch out to give gentle load. A lifter free additive went in, took 500 km to resolve issue, then sold to mechanic full of praise for its condition

1. No. The owners manual of some (or all) EA82s mentions that the oil pressure reading “nearly zero” at idle is not a problem. They’re not super accurate or diagnosis machines.    

2.  That story may not mean mich regarding additives or HLAs.  I’ve seen ticking go away and come back later, happens *all* the time. More than likely the additive had nothing to do with it or was only a minor bandaid and the ticking came back sometime down the road.  You didn’t own and drive it for 5 more years to find out.

considering that oil pump resealing is usually the long term fix, and most likely would have been in 1996 when the car was young, this is almost certainly the case for that car.

sell the car to a mechanic  usually means dirt cheap - no mechanic pays top dollar for an average widely available car. they pay pennies to the dollar. they get their pick of cheap cars every week.  Just stopped at one and guy got a nice turbo legacy for less than a grand. He’s all smiles and talk. 

Edited October 11, 2019 by idosubaru

[Steptoe]

On 10/11/2019 at 9:53 PM, idosubaru said:

1. No. The owners manual of some (or all) EA82s mentions that the oil pressure reading “nearly zero” at idle is not a problem. They’re not super accurate or diagnosis machines.    

2.  That story may not mean mich regarding additives or HLAs.  I’ve seen ticking go away and come back later, happens *all* the time. More than likely the additive had nothing to do with it or was only a minor bandaid and the ticking came back sometime down the road.  You didn’t own and drive it for 5 more years to find out.

considering that oil pump resealing is usually the long term fix, and most likely would have been in 1996 when the car was young, this is almost certainly the case for that car.

sell the car to a mechanic  usually means dirt cheap - no mechanic pays top dollar for an average widely available car. they pay pennies to the dollar. they get their pick of cheap cars every week.  Just stopped at one and guy got a nice turbo legacy for less than a grand. He’s all smiles and talk. 

It could be possible the tick came back after another 500 km , yes, I don't know, and from this experience I bought new or got Mizpah reco units for my own builds and oil pumps always get new seals when I am in there.

"Usually" but not this mechanic. Had a typical Of today's world way back then, offer half the asking price, over the phone, without even looking at it. Persisted in calling back too, so I had great pleasure in telling him wagon had gone and we got the advertised price

i have some idea that lifter free by Wynn's was also available in a trade only strength and it is probably an additional detergent to add to whatever is in engine oil for starters. I like to use Diesel spec oils in family cars last ...err...nearly 30 years! mainly for better detergent packages for multi valve lifters and my EA82s though this is early 90's thinking and today's oils for petrol engines probably have similar additive levels

[idosubaru]

Maybe not for anyone currently posting but for new people or readers oil and additives could be confusing here. 

Oil pump reseal and replacement fixes ticking most of the time. 

Oil, cleaning, or additives which help the HLAs seems limited in efficacy or causation when pump reseal or replacement is the chief concern.  Oils don’t address the pump. 

There might be room for asking if additives help the known fixes. The way the suction side of the pump gasket sucks in and deforms and seems untouchable by the oil.  pump replacement is a little less certain since no one knows precisely what “fails” on them. But additives seems unlikely there as well. 

 Your attention to detail and choices is clearly going to help. 

Edited October 13, 2019 by idosubaru

[kmpdx]

Reseal the oil pump. I had the tick for two years and finally did timing belts and the oil pump reseal at the same time. Instantly fixed! 

[Steptoe]

Love it when practicality forces us to alter more than one thing at a time so really don't know if it was one thing or the combination of things fixed it. I have in the past just adjusted my timing belts and got rid of the tick.

Not exactly the tick of death either. These poor things don't stop because if this noise

[wysubey]

Thanks all. Gonna take it easy this winter, lots of warm up time. And then when it gets nice in spring I'll do the timing belts and oil pump reseal. How quickly does the ticking damage lifters? Is a few minutes every couple days that bad?

[Steptoe]

Like to think a few minutes should do no harm

When starting up new or reco I have had to drive around the 'hood slow speed for probably 20 minutes to stop the ticking

Edited October 22, 2019 by Steptoe

[idosubaru]

16 hours ago, wysubey said:

Thanks all. Gonna take it easy this winter, lots of warm up time. And then when it gets nice in spring I'll do the timing belts and oil pump reseal. How quickly does the ticking damage lifters? Is a few minutes every couple days that bad?

i've seen them tick every second the engine is running for a year(s?).  i've never seen damage but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.   

It's only the past 10-20 years that EA82's and their symptoms seem uncommon and hard to get a bead on.  25 years ago these engines were common on roadways in areas with high subaru presence, but also getting old enough to start having TOD.  people would joke about them being diesels or about to die, mechanics would think it's rod knock, etc.  and plenty of people had reasons to never fix them or let them tick a long time, never with any resultant issues.     

i've never thought about what makes the noise exactly - i guess it's either internal to the HLA or slack in the HLA/rocker arm clearances. 

[DaveT]

The HLA s.   1 or a few get stuck, or air sucked into the oil via the shaft seal cause them to not keep contact with the cam followers.  So they tick.  I am not aware of anyone having permanent damage from TOD.

[el_freddo]

My take on the TOD. Air or lack of oil pressure in the HLA’s allowing the piston/knob (part that the cam follower sits on) to bottom out internally in the HLA. 

This eventually wears out the base of the HLA where this piston/knob piece sits, allowing oil to pass freely out to the open space of the engine’s internal area, thus not maintaining pressure or keeping the HLAs pumped up and doing their thing. 

Best solution to this is an EJ. Worked for me. 

My EJ has a quieter “TOD” when the oil level is at the low mark  

Cheers 

Bennie

[wysubey]

So I put 4oz of Seafoam in the oil, and it made quite a difference! Could tell almost immediately when the stuff made it to the offending HLA, since then it only ticks for less than 5 seconds on really cold starts. 

[Steptoe]

That is good news. Maybe take note of odo reading now, and when/if noise comes back. Is Seafoam just one product or many?

[idosubaru]

18 hours ago, wysubey said:

So I put 4oz of Seafoam in the oil, and it made quite a difference! Could tell almost immediately when the stuff made it to the offending HLA, since then it only ticks for less than 5 seconds on really cold starts. 

Could be anecdotal or related to something else - correlation doesn’t mean causation. 

Specific HLA noise is mentioned in the write up and should be verified/diagnosed, mentioned when discussing, and approached differently. 

The few I’ve seen like this have had very poor maintenance or significant engine issues in their history.

verify there is one or two specific problematic HLAs and not all of them or random or changing.  

If it’s a specific HLA(s) then it needs replaced or try band aids and see how long they last. Band aid options:

1. change the oil. Change it more often.

2. use better oil 

(1 & 2 are not a bad idea given current owners may not know decades of history on the vehicle)

3. try additives, thicker oil, run ATF, and see what happens, there’s no “one size fits all” concoction   

 

[idosubaru]

15 hours ago, Steptoe said:

That is good news. Maybe take note of odo reading now, and when/if noise comes back. Is Seafoam just one product or many?

It’s a specific product. Google it, you’ll see it. Very common, sold in almost all parts stores, Wal Marts, in the US and often used as throttle cleaner or gas treatment.

[Steptoe]

Did just that and found five Seafoam products available in Australia yet the engine treatment the most likely match product to this thread, only the blurb says it is an a fuel additive rather than an engine oil additive - which is where my brain stumbled

So, thinking it is a trick to add fuel cleaner to engine oil, just not too much, and it possibly evaporates out of the oil before too long.

I like to look after my engines a bit more than previous owners, but still too thrifty to copy some dealers while they service cars still under warranty - they add an engine oil flush just prior to oil change - and of course add 15 to 20 bucks to the invoice, 

Just to take a leaf out of modern vehicle service practices might lead to extending life of our old girls