from a stock 1996 subaru outback legacy 2.2l manual 5 speed to an offroad adventure wagon

[Adventure wagon]

I have recently purchased a 1996 Subaru Outback with a 2.2 liter EJ 22 engine that I know very little about. so far I have replaced the clutch and the axles and just in time to blow a head gasket . So in lue of just getting another car i have decided to turn this car into an ultimate adventure wagon, ntm b4 I blew the head gasket it had quite a few problems with lack of power and failing gages . at this point i am ready to put a new engine in the gal and do a complete overhaul . being that i am not a mechanic and i have a limitted budget, I have a lot of questions. first of these is; 

what can i do to achieve 250 hpaw with a 2.2 l engine ? 

 

[heartless]

pretty much nothing.

you will not ever achieve that kind of hp on an NA EJ22.

[Adventure wagon]

how difficult would it be to install a 3.0 h6 in a 1996 outback?

 

[YnotDIY]

[Adventure wagon]

I'm nube sorry what engine configuration do you recommend to acquire  at least 200 hp ?

 

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Limited budget simply isn't going to get the job done. Installing a 3.0 or a turbo engine is a MASSIVE undertaking and not being a mechanic is the end of this discussion. No one is going to do this for you for under $10,000 parts and labor. Last quote I did for a 90's era Antique to a 2.0 turbo swap was ~$16,000. You're simply living in a fantasy world thinking you can get more than about 135 AWHP from that vehicle.... and that's if you install a 25D. The stock engine makes about 110 to the wheels. 

GD

[el_freddo]

1 hour ago, Adventure wagon said:

how difficult would it be to install a 3.0 h6 in a 1996 outback?

 

Like any engine conversion - wiring conversion, dash out... it’s been done before so nothing new there. 

Aftermarket engine management is another option - then there’s the cost of tuning etc.

Not for the faint of heart! 

And as GD said above, it’s costly if you’re not doing a DIY job (and know what you’re doing). 

There are two H6 conversions getting around Oz that I know of. Both used to be in our off-roading group, the first was a Gen2 Liberty, the other is a SG Foz (from memory). 

The Liberty was sold on, no idea where it is now. The forester is still owned by my mate, but he now lives interstate. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[charles_thomas]

     The dudes are right, 250hp for low budget on a smaller displacement engine is near impossible. Usually requires advanced knowledge of tricks and techniques to make it happen. It frequently results in a severely shortened engine life. If many swaps is your cup-o-tea, go for it. Worst you can do is waste money and blow up engines? Idk...not my cup.

I installed an '02 EZ3.0 in a '77, with thebone stock Ecu, and a '92 Loyale trans. 215hp overnight... Well, over 2 weeks.

Anything can be done if you are willing to do the research into what it will take. My total cost into the build thus far is just shy of $1500, including the engine and tires. Engine came from pull and save, for a whopping $200. She runs, drives, and has a few thousand miles on it now, including one 1000 mile trip.

That being said, I AM a mechanic. If I was to do that for anyone else, it would be astronomically expensive, primarily due to the labor cost, time is money and the research into it was extensive.  

     A 96 body will fit an EZ30, and will bolt to the trans. You said you did the clutch, if you have, then you know how to pull the engine. Procedure is *almost* the same for the physical engine swap. Would need to switch the radiator, which is a bolt in, and have the exhaust mated to the new engine. And...

iMO - Your Primary issue is Wiring. The EZ30 runs a different (although physically similar) ECU. It has more wires coming from the engine, because more cylinders and more sensors, which means everywhere the wires run between the ECU and engine (dash, bulkhead, footwell, etc) is also different. To make it work you need to either swap the whole harness, Pay to have someone else do a harness merge, or do a LOT of research, pull out a multimeter, and do it yourself.

     Its a learning process, and most people quit because they didn't take the time to learn first. I am a dumb carb guy. I knew nothing about ECU wiring when I started. If I made it work, so can anyone. There are many good writeups on that swap, and if you are willing to do all the legwork yourself to find the wiring diagrams, learn about them, and then replace the right wires then you can do it. 

     There is no reason it HAS to be expensive, but you really need to look up everyone's experience. Take good notes of what went wrong for them, and how they fixed issues that will bite you in the wallet. I spent 3 weeks reading every ez swap I could find just so I wouldn't have any issues on my daily when I did the swap. It worked. No codes, no horrible failures, just some cooling kinks from cheaping out on pipe clamps. BUT it's done for less than what most people pay for their engine alone. 

 

     So decide what you want to do, then to heck with peoples opinions of the idea, get out there, learn what you need to know, then a whole bunch of extra, and make it happen. 

 

Sry for novel. 

Edited November 10, 2019 by charles_thomas

[GeneralDisorder]

In my opinion the way to do it would be to forget about the factory EZ30 harness and all the codes you will fight trying to swap it to a 96. Cut it on the body side of the bulkhead manifold harness plugs and wire up a LINK ECU to it. You can get a LINK and wire-in harness tor about $1500 and they have the trigger setup already programmed and they just work so well and are easy to tune.

But if you aren't doing it yourself, it's going to cost far more than just buying a low mileage H6 Outback that already has this engine. 

GD

[1 Lucky Texan]

fix the headgasket, sell the car, buy a turbo Forester to play with.

[Adventure wagon]

so I decided that I'm gonna rebuild the 2.2 and avoid the wiring disaster entirely. so now my question is how to get the most out of my stock 2.2l ?

 

 

 

[Adventure wagon]

I'll post pic soon and try and document as much of this build as possible

 

[GeneralDisorder]

1 minute ago, Adventure wagon said:

so I decided that I'm gonna rebuild the 2.2 and avoid the wiring disaster entirely. so now my question is how to get the most out of my stock 2.2l ?

There's nothing to get. The engine is already in the low-mid 90's for volumetric efficiency. 

Also don't. Rebuild it that is. Waste of time. Get a low mileage used replacement. Or install a 25D bottom end with the 2.2 heads. Rebuilding a Subaru short block is absolutely NOT for the amateur or the uninitiated. And it is WAY cost prohibitive to have it done right. 

GD

[Adventure wagon]

ok so I will order another ej22E,  and then, of course, might as well get a transmission with it . I think its a 5MT right? what else can i do for power or at very least fuel economy though ? also how should I go about lifting it and should I ? I heard about the forester suspension swap  but is that a viable and cost effective hack ? tire size capability and fitment is also a question i am considering. thanks btw everyone for your input . especially GeneralDisorder ,charles_thomas and el_fredo

 

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Adventure wagon

[GeneralDisorder]

You can't do anything for power unless you put in a 25D complete engine or use the 2.2 heads on a 25D bottom end.

[idosubaru]

11 hours ago, Adventure wagon said:

ok so I will order another ej22E,  and then, of course, might as well get a transmission with it . I think its a 5MT right? what else can i do for power or at very least fuel economy though ? also how should I go about lifting it and should I ? I heard about the forester suspension swap  but is that a viable and cost effective hack ? tire size capability and fitment is also a question i am considering. thanks btw everyone for your input . especially GeneralDisorder ,charles_thomas and el_fredo

 

 

 

 

With a limited budget and experience hold on a second:

1. Just install new headgaskets.  That engine is the easiest Subaru engine ever to replace headgaskets on. Easily done in the car, if not ideal it’s at least easy.  All the head bolts are external - it’s a cake walk. 
 

2.  put any additional funds towards an EJ25D block.  That would be the roughly the same cost as a new EJ22 engine and gets you close to 200 hp with the EJ22 heads bolted on it.  Roughly 50 more hp/40% more hp than you had for easy and cheap. No wiring no custom anything, easy.  Anything else is far more work.
 

You could also look into upgrading the cams for $200.  

I’ve got a good one that’s never been overheated I’d probably sell. But unlikely you’re on the east coast if you have a 1996 Subaru haha. 

[GeneralDisorder]

1 hour ago, idosubaru said:

With a limited budget and experience hold on a second:

2.  put any additional funds towards an EJ25D block.  That would be the roughly the same cost as a new EJ22 engine and gets you close to 200 hp with the EJ22 heads bolted on it.  Roughly 50 more hp/40% more hp than you had for easy and cheap. No wiring no custom anything, easy.  Anything else is far more work.

Yes but it's nowhere near 200 HP.  Especially with 2.2 heads. We built a full EJ25D with high compression (STI block, pistons, and rods), and used adjustable timing idlers to get the timing spot on. With the 25D ECU in a 98 5MT Forester we made about 145 AWHP. That's about 175 crank HP which is 10 HP over stock for a 25D. It made crazy amounts of torque with a very wide power band - something like 4500 RPM of nearly-peak torque. Pulls hills like a beast. It's not even close to 200 HP though. 2.2 heads will just severely restrict the RPM. It will die off on power above about 5k. 

Cams..... never had good luck with doing that on the NA Subaru fuel injected engines - it screws up the fuel injection and they throw misfire codes. About all you can do is shift the power up or down - you can't make more of it. And Subaru engines make such huge low end torque that the only worthwhile direction to shift it is up... unfortunately that means generally more overlap, low manifold vacuum and intake reversion which screws with the MAF and you get a rougher idle and misfire codes. It's totally not worth it without the ability to tune and that's not happening on a 96. 

GD

Edited November 13, 2019 by GeneralDisorder

[idosubaru]

Got it. I’ve seen quotes of “180”, so I was being way too rough with numbers, hence my “50 hp” comment.  For cheap maybe it’s worth it for someone who wants a bump over 135 in an EJ22.
 

But maybe a straight stock EJ25 makes more sense. 

[GeneralDisorder]

The 2.2 heads probably make even more torque due to their small intake ports. I doubt they develop the same HP as the high compression 25D. Probably less than a factory 25D honestly. It just feels like a lot because of all the torque and it's probably 20 HP over the 2.2 anyway given the increase in displacement. If I had to guess I would put the 2.5/2.2 hybrid at around 155 crank HP..... might be 180 ft/lbs though. 

GD

[comatosellama]

Easiest way to get 250hp out of that car is to sell it and buy a clapped out trans am

[GeneralDisorder]

5 hours ago, comatosellama said:

Easiest way to get 250hp out of that car is to sell it and buy a clapped out trans am

Can't really find a TA with 250 for what that 96 Legacy is worth. The 3rd gens are rising in value....... LS 4th gens are way out of that price range..... might get an LT1 mid 90's rust bucket for a similar price. No one really wants those at the moment. 

GD

[comatosellama]

20 hours ago, GeneralDisorder said:

might get an LT1 mid 90's rust bucket for a similar price. No one really wants those at the moment. 

GD

Either that or a riced out 4.0 mustang seem like good options.

 

LQ swapped Chevy Colorado also comes to mind. I've seen those swapped for zero net cost and very rarely for profit after parting out the donor car

 

Edit:

Also, OP,  a civic with a b18 turbo engine checks all your boxes. Anyone can swap a honda

Edited November 14, 2019 by comatosellama

[comatosellama]

On 11/13/2019 at 12:15 PM, GeneralDisorder said:

The 2.2 heads probably make even more torque due to their small intake ports. I doubt they develop the same HP as the high compression 25D. Probably less than a factory 25D honestly. It just feels like a lot because of all the torque and it's probably 20 HP over the 2.2 anyway given the increase in displacement. If I had to guess I would put the 2.5/2.2 hybrid at around 155 crank HP..... might be 180 ft/lbs though. 

GD

Been thinking about doing this since I bought my first car. Disregarding wiring and plumbing do you think a hybrid motor or a 3.6 swap is more worthwhile?

OP said he's willing to put in a 'new' engine so I figure I'm not too far off topic

 

[GeneralDisorder]

3.6 will make a lot more power but you will have to use like a LINK to run it. No way the factory ECU is going to be happy in a swap. Certainly can be done though. 

GD

[Lightning Racer]

On 11/9/2019 at 10:55 PM, GeneralDisorder said:

Limited budget simply isn't going to get the job done. Installing a 3.0 or a turbo engine is a MASSIVE undertaking and not being a mechanic is the end of this discussion. No one is going to do this for you for under $10,000 parts and labor. Last quote I did for a 90's era Antique to a 2.0 turbo swap was ~$16,000. You're simply living in a fantasy world thinking you can get more than about 135 AWHP from that vehicle.... and that's if you install a 25D. The stock engine makes about 110 to the wheels. 

GD

For the entertainment value of watching a massive undertaking, watch the Mighty Car Mods "Gramps" (Gen 2 Liberty/Legacy wagon EZ36 turbo) and "Supergramps"  (same engine moved to a Gen 4 wagon) series on Youtube.  After 5 years work: