SUBARU3 Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Hey guys.... I'm stumped. My 95 Legacy, auto, AWD, 2.2, 105K all of a sudden has no starter. Drove it today, parked it in the driveway, later went out and no starter. Never any issue whatsoever, until today. This is what I have done/ruled out. * Battery is good, battery cables good and I have tested the starter via a jump wire to the solenoid connection and the starter turns over the engine just fine. If I leave the ignition on, car will start fine too. * Shift lock works and will not shift without the brake pressed. * It will not turn over in Park, OR Neutral. * The solenoid will not click when key is turned to start. * No power to the solenoid when key is turned to start. Could it be sudden failure of the gear position switch on the side of the tranny? Maybe something inside the car, under the gear shift? I was also wondering if it could be the ignition relay. (Up in the upper left hand dash above the fuses). Thanks so much for your thoughts!! Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike104 Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 (edited) This seems to be a common issue. Since you direct wired the solenoid that verifies that the starter and large wire to starter are good. I think you have also verified the neutral safety switch (has a different name on AT cars but same thing). What you can try is measuring the voltage at the solenoid connection when the key is turned to Start. If the voltage is low you could try adding a relay to the solenoid circuit that is powered directly from the battery. I did this for several years after replacing almost every part in the system to no avail. Since you said that there is no power at the solenoid when turned to start it may be the ignition switch or potentially a fuse. Edited November 11, 2019 by Mike104 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 The problem can be as Mike104 said, or if you have anti-theft in could be a relay or something else. Had the same problem on 2 of our 95s and our 97 Legacy RHD with automatics. Most of the time they would start but some times the starter would not work. I added a Push Button to the starter circuit. Now my wife just turns the key on and hits the button if it don't start with the key. Very important on the mail route. Beside the steering wheel are 4 rectangles, two on the left and two on the right. One or two may be populated with push on - push off switches like for fog lights or something. Drop the steering wheel down with the release lever. Take out the 4 screws holding the bezel in front of the gauges and you will have access to the back side of it. Pop out the right rectangle and drill a hole (I think it is a 1/2 inch) in it to accommodate the push button switch. The one I used (20 or 30 AMP) is available at most auto parts stores. The button is silver. It fits tight. I only had to trim out a little plastic for it to fit. Mount it with the terminals facing to the right. You can tap into an empty spot on the fuse panel that is hot only with Ignition ON. Use a 1/4 inch male spade crimp connector. Hook that wire to one of the terminals on the switch. From the other terminal run a wire through a rubber plug in the firewall and over to the starter. At the starter solenoid connection I did this. Get a male spade connector and an insulated female spade connector and a 4 inch piece of wire. Crimp the short wire and the wire from the push button switch in the male connector. Crimp the insulated female connector on the other end of the short wire. Unplug the wire from the starter solenoid and plug it onto the male connector and then plug the female connector onto the starter solenoid. Now if the key does not start the engine, just hit the push button. Keep in mind that it will start no matter where the shifter is...…… Most people are in the habit of having it in park. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBARU3 Posted November 11, 2019 Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 I'm really thinking with the "sudden" failure that it is a relay or something. I know there are a few in the dash...One is "ignition relay" and the other I think is called starter relay....I'm going to pull the old ones and compare some #s and dig out the factory parts manual. It's good to know that the the car will start with jumper wire to the solenoid! Do the shift position sensors on the side of the transmission case fail often? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Start circuit on that is not run through any relays other than the solenoid on the starter. Power before the ignition switch is shared, so the fact that it'll run, means that it's not a fuse or anything like that. It's either the ignition switch, inhibitor switch (on the side of the transmission, like you pictured), or a wiring break. Get out your multimeter and see where the power stops. The inhibitor switch has seperate contacts, so I've seen them fail in "Park", but still work in "Neutral". So if that doesn't work for you, I'd be inclined to ASSume ignition switch, but test it. Diagrams: http://jdmfsm.info/Auto/Japan/Subaru/Legacy_Outback/1995/1995 Legacy Wiring Diagrams.pdf Start circuit is on page 15. Super simple circuit. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBARU3 Posted November 11, 2019 Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 I am thinking that the ignition switch is OK, as when it's turned to start, the radio and other items cut out as expected. Do ignition switches fail without any warning? I know I'm getting ZERO power to the solenoid when the key is turned to start. Not low volts...zero volts. It will not start in Park, or Neural. Once again, I can turn the key to on and run a wire to the solenoid from the battery and start the car. No starter, battery , or cable issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 10 minutes ago, SUBARU3 said: I am thinking that the ignition switch is OK, as when it's turned to start, the radio and other items cut out as expected. Do ignition switches fail without any warning? I know I'm getting ZERO power to the solenoid when the key is turned to start. Not low volts...zero volts. It will not start in Park, or Neural. Once again, I can turn the key to on and run a wire to the solenoid from the battery and start the car. No starter, battery , or cable issues. Just because it's cutting power to the "acc" circuit doesn't tell you anything about the condition of the contacts in the "ST" circuit. I'd get the multimeter out and test for power coming out of it in that position. I wouldn't be surprised if it's nothing. Ignition and inhibitor switches have almost identical function, they can fail without warning. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBARU3 Posted November 11, 2019 Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 I guess I will be investigating the switch! I will report back. Weather went to crap here today though. Texas weather....blink and it changes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 1 hour ago, SUBARU3 said: I guess I will be investigating the switch! I will report back. Weather went to crap here today though. Texas weather....blink and it changes! Got nothing on Melbourne/Victorian weather - winter in the morning, spring by mid morning, summer in the arvo and autumn coming into the evening. The last week we literally had all seasons in one day that also included hail. The day after it snowed down to 700m - a pretty rare event for winter let alone near the end of spring. Going back to the ignition switch - I agree with Numbchux - the starter switch is designed NOT to have power to accessories when in the start position. Thus without a power connection in the start position, there can never be power to accessories unless something went massively wrong, in which case you’d have larger issues at hand too. You could test the wiring and the inhibitor switch by putting 12v to the starter wire, try in park and neutral. If both work, the issue points at the ignition switch. Cheers Bennie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 3 hours ago, SUBARU3 said: Do ignition switches fail without any warning? Yes they can, but usually they will be intermittent first. I took the ignition switch out of our 97 when it acted up 2 years ago and was surprised to see the wires are "soldered" to the contacts on the switch. On two of them the solder had started to melt. The melting solder usually happens if the solder starts to crack and it has a smaller connection point, or the contacts inside the switch are dirty and the contact point is smaller and will get hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmdew Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 I've had ignition switches fail with the same symptoms. If you have a spare switch, you can just plug it in under the dash at the connector and see if the new/used one works. If you do have to remove the old one, drill out the bolts and just use common hardware to go back in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 This will give you an idea of the route the voltage takes to get to the starter. Battery, Fusible Link, SBF 45 amp, connector, Ignition switch connector battery in (it will be good to this point) and starter out, connector in and out for the inhibitor switch, and finally the starter. The connector for the inhibitor switch is on top of the bell housing. In the diagram you'll see Pin 12 in and Pin 11 out to the starter. I removed the wires for standard tranny. Also note that "only" if it has security system it will have a relay. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBARU3 Posted November 14, 2019 Author Share Posted November 14, 2019 I cannot believe what this was! The screw that held/holds the ignition switch into the key lock assembly was gone. SO...when the key was turned to start, the switch moved in the casing just enough that no contact was made. One screw and fixed. Man...that was easy! But now I know what to do if problems occur in the future! Thanks Guys! Todd 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampage Posted November 14, 2019 Share Posted November 14, 2019 Screw that---and it fixed it. Cool. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike104 Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 Thanks for letting us know the fix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted November 15, 2019 Share Posted November 15, 2019 I didn’t see that coming! Cheers Bennie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1997reduxe Posted November 16, 2019 Share Posted November 16, 2019 Yeah that’s the problem I’ve found on these, I’m on my 5th or 6th 90s era legacy now, is that with age or vibration things come apart. I had a thing where intermittently my cooling fans weren’t working, it turned out the tabs for the fan harness plugs were gone. Zip ties fixed that. once I had a similar thing with no power to the car period when I went to start. I played with the fusible link and boom started right up. its amazing they keep running so well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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