EA82. Could be a real "find"

[rickyhils]

I just picked up a rebuilt EA82. Never run since rebuild as no oil inside yet. Only assembly lube is visible. Seller had no history, but this rebuild was done some years ago. Timing belts say "Three Star" brand, which seems like an older brand. Head gasket are definitely not Felpro perma-torque.  All signs say that a re-torque of heads will be needed after installing engine into Loyale and running up to temp. Doing a re-torque while engine is in this car is not a fun task.   PLAN B- Since engine is not yet installed - can simply re-do using Felpro perma torque gaskets and be done with it.

Edited December 31, 2019 by rickyhils
typo

[DaveT]

I'd probably set it up on my stand for a test run and retorque unless a car was down and I needed to swap right away.

[Mack Truck]

What a find.  i want to hear what u find if u choose to replace the head gaskets now.  I really suggest the Webber 38/38 syncro carb and u may also want to send your cams off to Delta Cam in Tacoma, Wa for a Level 1 grind.  I have done this to my engine.  I also have a CAT back 2in exhaust.  Let us know how it goes please.

[rickyhils]

Mack Truck -   A carb manifold came with it. I am in Kalifornia so I am inclined to stay with the existing SPFI for now. But I will research the Webber 38/38 synchro setup. My 1991 Loyale is FWD and although it is under powered it still serves me very well. But the carb sounds inviting. Years ago I rebuilt a single barrel and also a two barrel carb. Fun stuff.  You have 2in exhaust? Which muffler?

Edited December 31, 2019 by rickyhils
add bold

[rickyhils]

2 hours ago, DaveT said:

I'd probably set it up on my stand for a test run and retorque unless a car was down and I needed to swap right away.

No hurry on this. I need to research how to do a test run set-up. Test run will need oil, ignition, and fuel.  But how to crank over to start?   Would imagine that carefully monitoring engine temp means no need for cooling system during test run. Just shut down when operating temp reached.     And I'll need to fabricate a 17mm socket to fit inside the cam housing at those two bolts.  It looks like the rebuild mechanic knew his stuff. Even the oil pan bolts were at the correct torque, [not over tight] and he put the slightest smear of assembly lube all around the cork gasket. The main concern is that those close tolerances inside were reassembled correctly. Will make audio recording during test run. 

[DaveT]

When I test ran one, I bolted it to a transmission [my stand holds both].  Alternative, get a junk trans and remove the bell housing to mount the starter.
I set up a slow, pressure limited feed of water through the radiator hoses.   At least make a loop for the water to circulate, you don't want hot spots.   I've had so many of these fail head gaskets when low on coolant, and even a little over normal temp on the gauge.  NOTE - the temp gauge is right on the thermostat housing, separate from the block, so without FULL water / cooling system, neither the gauge or the thermostat will have correct information.

I took an extra 17mm 3/8" drive socket and ground it to clear whatever was in the way on the 1 or 2 head bolts for the re torque.

[rickyhils]

Dave. Thanks much.   But I think that I am in over my head just a little bit

9 hours ago, DaveT said:

When I test ran one, I bolted it to a transmission [my stand holds both].  Alternative, get a junk trans and remove the bell housing to mount the starter.
I set up a slow, pressure limited feed of water through the radiator hoses.   At least make a loop for the water to circulate, you don't want hot spots.   I've had so many of these fail head gaskets when low on coolant, and even a little over normal temp on the gauge.  NOTE - the temp gauge is right on the thermostat housing, separate from the block, so without FULL water / cooling system, neither the gauge or the thermostat will have correct information.

I took an extra 17mm 3/8" drive socket and ground it to clear whatever was in the way on the 1 or 2 head bolts for the re torque.

Dave. Thanks much.   But I am now thinking that I am in over my head just a little bit on doing this test run. First- Don't I need the ECM and some of the wire harness for the distributor to send spark and the SPFI fuel injector to work?  Yeah, I have another manifold that is for a carb but I do not have a carb at this time.   And slow water feed looping through the engine is doable, but won't the water feed prevent the engine from reaching operating temperature? Thus not letting the gaskets get fully hot enough?     FWIW- I just redid the intake manifold gaskets myself, and I've done heads and even the MT5 mainshaft seal and two mainshaft bearings, timing belts and front axles. So, I have manufactured the tenacity to get things fixed [ and they stay fixed] .      I am at a standstill.   Option A-  A test run will be very helpful and reveal much before install, but lot's of prep work.     Option B - Install, run. [hopefully the rebuild will show to be good] and then go through the doable [but pain in the butt] hassle of re-torquing while in the car.       Option C - Re-do heads with Felpro permatorque. Install engine and run. All the while knowing that a faulty engine rebuild will mean swapping back in the now working engine

Edited January 1, 2020 by rickyhils

[DaveT]

Yes, you would need the ecu and wiring to run the spfi.  Yes it's a bunch of setup.   The water - when the thermostat is closed,  not much will flow through.  This is why there has to be a way to limit the pressure.  That can be simple, just a T in the supply with a same size hose or pipe that ends a foot higher than the top o the intake manifold would do it..  water circulating through the block and (loop in place of the heater core) is the main part.  The water intake is right into the pump.  The outlet is the thermostat end.  Adjust the supply flow to just get a little overflowing the T.  When the thermostat opens, the t line will empty, and hot water will come out the thermostat port, so it needs to be routed somewhere safe.

Any way you go it's a gamble as far as risking time spent vs time saved.  I don't think I'd replace the headgaskets, just seems like everything else was done right.  Either swap it in, or do the test setup.   Testing, you for sure spend a bunch of time, makes retorque easier.   Swap in, saves the test setup time, makes retorque more fiddly, but it is do able.  Main risk is the time  if something is wrong,  you have to swap / reseal / whatever .  If the car is down now, and needed quickly, swap might be more worth it.  

When I did the test run, the car was drivable,  and I could not afford to have it down longer than the weekend to swap the engine.

[rickyhils]

4 hours ago, DaveT said:

Yes, you would need the ecu and wiring to run the spfi.  Yes it's a bunch of setup.   The water - when the thermostat is closed,  not much will flow through.  This is why there has to be a way to limit the pressure. . . .

Yeah, I'll leave the headgaskets alone. I will find extra ecu and fabricate enough "point to point" wire connections to fire up the engine. And why don't I just hook up a radiator? [shunt the heater line]  But when firing up the engine I won't hear how it's running unless the exhaust system is bolted on with the muffler in place. But I can bring it over from the Loyale. Will maybe need to fabricate some steel support for the engine mounts.   And I don't recall there being any crankshaft position sensor that the ecu needs to see. 

Edited January 1, 2020 by rickyhils

[DaveT]

The "crankshaft sensor" is actually electronic points in the distributor. 

 

Yeah, without the exhaust it will be loud ..  I didn't worry about that, as I knew the bottom end was good on mine.

Yes, you can just hook up the radiator if that's easier / more convenient.   The biggest deal is to  be sure there is not a big air pocket in the water pump. 

 

There are 2 tapped holes on either side of the crankcase, right along the oil pan.  I use pieces of square tube with bolts into those holes for the mounting.  The rest of the stand is wood bolted together.  I built it a long time ago.

[rickyhils]

Good info

2 hours ago, DaveT said:

. . .   The biggest deal is to  be sure there is not a big air pocket in the water pump. . . .

Yeah. Water pumps don't pump air very well. I'll make sure to put some water directly down into the pump through that large pipe that connects from the lower radiator hose. Also some down the cabin heater hose where it meets the pump.  And if I take the thermostat out I can check for positive flow right away at the radiator filler cap. Then reinstall the thermostat.   But the "die has been cast" and the rebuild is either "good to go" or . . .  [God forbid]. . . oil starved main bearings or pistons scraping the walls.  My money is on having it purr like a kitten. Will update in coming 2 months or so.  Thanks for the help.

Edited January 1, 2020 by rickyhils

[DaveT]

Oh,  you reminded me - before I put the timing belts on, I use a drill with a socket to spin the oil pump to prime it after a reseal.

[rickyhils]

6 hours ago, DaveT said:

Oh,  you reminded me - before I put the timing belts on, I use a drill with a socket to spin the oil pump to prime it after a reseal.

Maybe I would do well to look inside oil pump to see if assembly lube was applied. That could only help create the needed vacuum to pull the oil up. Speaking of which, whenever I hear the EA82 "tick of death" I could always shut the engine off then restart immediately and the "tod" would disappear. Is that due to a gasket that gets sucked out of shape?  And is there some kind of check valve in the oil pump to keep it primed until next startup?  Thanks

[el_freddo]

7 hours ago, DaveT said:

Oh,  you reminded me - before I put the timing belts on, I use a drill with a socket to spin the oil pump to prime it after a reseal.

I too did this after my initial rebuild of the EA82. Money that would’ve been best spent on an EJ conversion. 

If you ever rebuild an engine and don’t know the history of the radiator with plastic end tanks - replace it!! My dodgy old radiator cost me a 9 month old rebuilt engine  

Cheers 

Bennie

[idosubaru]

Why replace a known running engine with questionable?

I don’t think I’d retorque the bolts but If you’re going to retorque in the car, pull the cam carriers, clean all the mating surfaces and install them dry or with a very easy to remove sealant.  
 

Pulling the cam carriers insitu on an EA82 is pretty easy, cleaning sealant off is probably the most time consuming part.  

Can you find a junk EA82 to buy and a test rig then sell it when you’re done?  Or just buy a cheap Subaru to drive while you “test” the engine in your currrnt car if down time is a concern?  If you’re able to build a test jig then buying and selling a Subaru is a cake walk. 

Both of those sounds easier than fabricating a jig for what is probably a one time stint and loss of money and time.

Compared to building your own test jig and running it on a stand - just installing the engine and running it or retorquing or installing Fel Pro HGs all sounds simple.  

[rickyhils]

10 hours ago, el_freddo said:

 Money that would’ve been best spent on an EJ conversion. If you ever rebuild an engine and don’t know the history of the radiator with plastic end tanks - replace it!! My dodgy old radiator cost me a 9 month old rebuilt engine 

Cheers

Bennie

Bennie.    This EA82 was already rebuilt when I picked it up for only $100 on Craigslist. It might be good for a lot of miles. EJ swap is out. Too complicated for me at this point. Just curious - would that be the 2.2? or the 2.5? Do those even fit in a Loyale? What about the MT5 5spd trans? Do you need to put another manual trans with the EJ swap? And not sure if California smog check would view EJ as the "wrong" engine being in the Loyale.  And yes, replace radiator if questionable!  

[rickyhils]

10 hours ago, idosubaru said:

Why replace a known running engine with questionable?

I don’t think I’d retorque the bolts but If you’re going to retorque in the car, pull the cam carriers, clean all the mating surfaces and install them dry or with a very easy to remove sealant. 

Compared to building your own test jig and running it on a stand - just installing the engine and running it or retorquing or installing Fel Pro HGs all sounds simple.  

Existing engine has 326k mi. Runs well. But I might want to change out the pilot bearing [5 spd trans FWD] as I had previous issue [120k miles ago] where bad pilot bearing coincided with a failed mainshaft oil seal and a failed rear mainshaft bearing.  [Can also inspect clutch] And currently the oil pan needs a gasket.

Will get Felpro HGs to have at hand in any case. 120k miles back I put in new Felpro HGs with engine in car. No problems. Hardest part was keeping rockers from falling aside when putting cam towers back in place. I think I used plastic zip ties to hold rockers in place until cam towers bolted on. 

You said - "I don’t think I’d retorque the bolts" - Is that to say that a re-torque [on most likely these Ishino OEM HGs] may not even be necessary? Still have to keep a close watch on oil/coolant not mixing. Maybe after 500 miles then probably good-to-go?

Install cam carriers dry? Is that to imply that simply checking and wiping off any oil seepage down the carriers from time to time might be a simpler way to go?

 

[idosubaru]

6 hours ago, rickyhils said:

Existing engine has 326k mi. Runs well. But I might want to change out the pilot bearing [5 spd trans FWD] as I had previous issue [120k miles ago] where bad pilot bearing coincided with a failed mainshaft oil seal and a failed rear mainshaft bearing.  [Can also inspect clutch] And currently the oil pan needs a gasket.

Will get Felpro HGs to have at hand in any case. 120k miles back I put in new Felpro HGs with engine in car. No problems. Hardest part was keeping rockers from falling aside when putting cam towers back in place. I think I used plastic zip ties to hold rockers in place until cam towers bolted on. 

You said - "I don’t think I’d retorque the bolts" - Is that to say that a re-torque [on most likely these Ishino OEM HGs] may not even be necessary? Still have to keep a close watch on oil/coolant not mixing. Maybe after 500 miles then probably good-to-go?

Install cam carriers dry? Is that to imply that simply checking and wiping off any oil seepage down the carriers from time to time might be a simpler way to go?

 

that’s a fair number of miles! New engine it is!!!

I use grease to hold rockers in place. can also tilt the engine or entire car with a jack so the side you’re currently working on is “leaning slightly”. 

by not retorquing I mean I’d rather not retorque and would install new Fel Pro PTs out of the vehicle rather than retorque in the vehicle.

*temporarily* install the cam carrier dry only if youre going to remove the carrier to retorque.  Install carrier dry, remove carrier to retorque, *then seal* the carrier after the retorque. 

 

[rickyhils]

3 hours ago, idosubaru said:

that’s a fair number of miles! New engine it is!!!

I use grease to hold rockers in place. can also tilt the engine or entire car with a jack so the side you’re currently working on is “leaning slightly”. 

by not retorquing I mean I’d rather not retorque and would install new Fel Pro PTs out of the vehicle rather than retorque in the vehicle.

*temporarily* install the cam carrier dry only if youre going to remove the carrier to retorque.  Install carrier dry, remove carrier to retorque, *then seal* the carrier after the retorque. 

 

This rebuild has "MBL Three- Star" timing belts on it. That's an older product. Would more likely see Mitsoboshi name now days.  And the HGs are for sure not Fel Pro. This could have been rebuilt 15+ years ago. The seller was into working on VW bugs and just had this sitting in his garage. He gave no history info at all. But for $100 bucks who would pass it up?  

Final decision is to re-do using Fel Pro PT HGs. Will keep in mind priming of water and oils pumps. The supplied intake manifold is for a carb. I looked the block over and the only possible difference from my 1991 Loyale block is maybe the odd little bracket mount to secure an A/C line at the top/right cam tower. Can fabricate.

For the cam carriers ---->  Permatex 22074 Ultra Grey?

 

[rickyhils]

Will update progress on this "rebuild find" in coming weeks. And before the new Fel Pro PT HGs go on I'll get some pix of the cyl walls. It does crank over smoothly by hand, but at this point one can only pray that the bottom end was done correctly. Will go with conventional oil as original. The radiator checks out ok and runs cool as a cucumber.   All you guys here are great. Thanks a bunch.

[rickyhils]

On 12/31/2019 at 7:07 AM, DaveT said:

I'd probably set it up on my stand for a test run and retorque unless a car was down and I needed to swap right away.

Dave - If I had more room in the back yard I'd build the engine test set up, just to say I DID IT! But will go with redoing using Fel Pro PT HG's.   

[rickyhils]

4 hours ago, idosubaru said:

that’s a fair number of miles! New engine it is!!!

I use grease to hold rockers in place. can also tilt the engine or entire car with a jack so the side you’re currently working on is “leaning slightly”. 

by not retorquing I mean I’d rather not retorque and would install new Fel Pro PTs out of the vehicle rather than retorque in the vehicle.

*temporarily* install the cam carrier dry only if youre going to remove the carrier to retorque.  Install carrier dry, remove carrier to retorque, *then seal* the carrier after the retorque. 

 

I looked up your bio. You are only 45 years old. I'm 65. You must have been like a teenager learning from the oldsters about Subarus. I'm impressed.

[idosubaru]

duplicate

Edited January 3, 2020 by idosubaru

[idosubaru]

5 hours ago, rickyhils said:

You are only 45 

I printed that in font size 60 and hung it over my door way this morning.  LOL

5 hours ago, rickyhils said:

You must have been like a teenager learning from the oldsters about Subarus. I'm impressed.

That's exactly what happened. First Subaru in highschool. There were quite a few, but John and Huck taught me a ton 2 decades ago on old yahoo forums. Now they're members here and I've met them and been to their homes.  I paid for college on my own and couldn't go anywhere if the subaru wasn't fixed inexpensively myself. Those guys helped me and i ended up enjoying working on subarus.

[rickyhils]

11 hours ago, idosubaru said:

 and i ended up enjoying working on subarus.

I was forced to learn when in 2008 my Loyale started leaking gear oil out the mainshaft seal [200k miles] . [FWD 5-spd]  I saw a [then named] GLOYALE post a message on USMB and he had pictures of how to open the trans case on an MT-5 and do the mainshaft oil seal. I had only ever done axles and brakes on my Subaru. But no way was I spending $2,000+ for my local mechanic to do it. So, it was either do it myself or junk the car. And I did not want that car going to the junk yard. Pat on back for me - job well done. I only knew to put car on four 18 inch jacks and rent a transmission jack.  

 I knew I could learn to do it even with my limited knowledge. And in retrospect I am still amazed that my brain remembered to put sealant on the case halves! [Homer Simpson- "Doh!"]  The irony is that the car's previous owner was very easy on the clutch, thus there was no servicing of the clutch which meant that a disintegrated pilot bearing was not spotted, which no doubt accelerated the wear on the mainshaft related components. Live and learn.