95 Legacy AWD versus 98 Forestor AWD

[Ravenwoods]

When I drive my wife's 98 Forester I get the feeling that its AWD is superior to my 95 Legacy. Am I imaging that? Or did they make improvements? The Forester has nice Toyo studless tires and the Legacy has got old studded tires with worn down studs. Could be just the tires.

[idosubaru]

1. are they both automatic or manual?

tires generally aren't given enough attention for snow driving.  first guess is tires and that's correct 99% of the time. 

read the 4 digit date stamp on the side of the tires.  if they're more than 3 years old they're way below average for snow driving unless they're a top shelf brand like Nokian or Michellin, those can perform well at older ages.  i find age to be a significant determining factor for driving in snow.  cheap wal mart tires can perform horrendously after only 2 years, with full tread but incredible materials degradation....which isn't surprising given the degrading curve of rubber and compounds they use in the formulation of the materials to reduce the impacts of UV and oxygen exposure to the materials.  and then medium grade altimax, goodyears perform well but are notably worse in snow by years 3-4 then years 1-2.  

2. in what way - describe what you're feeling that's different?  the 95 should perform well in the snow and not be cause for alarm. 

3. how many miles on each vehicle and how often/when was the last ATF change?   people report significant improvements with fluid changes and/or upgrading to Redline or Amsoil or other high performance fluids. 

the clutches may be tired or have a delayed reaction.  that's not unheard of and fresh fluid may help depending on the root cause. 

the forester may have some advantages, like being 5% heavier, some minor trans/TCU tweaks, but in a great running, fresh fluid, uncompromised trans i would expect the differences to be negligible unless you're racing.  

Edited January 31, 2020 by idosubaru

[Ravenwoods]

26 minutes ago, idosubaru said:

1. are they both automatic or manual?

tires generally aren't given enough attention for snow driving.  first guess is tires and that's correct 99% of the time. 

read the 4 digit date stamp on the side of the tires.  if they're more than 3 years old they're way below average for snow driving unless they're a top shelf brand like Nokian or Michellin, those can perform well at older ages.  i find age to be a significant determining factor for driving in snow.  cheap wal mart tires can perform horrendously after only 2 years, with full tread but incredible materials degradation....which isn't surprising given the degrading curve of rubber and compounds they use in the formulation of the materials to reduce the impacts of UV and oxygen exposure to the materials.  and then medium grade altimax, goodyears perform well but are notably worse in snow by years 3-4 then years 1-2.  

2. in what way - describe what you're feeling that's different?  the 95 should perform well in the snow and not be cause for alarm. 

3. how many miles on each vehicle and how often/when was the last ATF change?   people report significant improvements with fluid changes and/or upgrading to Redline or Amsoil or other high performance fluids. 

the clutches may be tired or have a delayed reaction.  that's not unheard of and fresh fluid may help depending on the root cause. 

the forester may have some advantages, like being 5% heavier, some minor trans/TCU tweaks, but in a great running, fresh fluid, uncompromised trans i would expect the differences to be negligible unless you're racing.  

Legacy: Automatic Transmission. Fluid changed 2019. 191,000 miles

Forester: Manual Transmission. 299,000 miles. The cental differential was redone maybe at about 180,000 miles.

The Legacy does perform very well on the snow. Never in danger of getting stuck. At highway speeds on slippery roads it feels more like it just isn't gripping the roads well.

[Numbchux]

Subaru automatics (there are some premium models with VTD AWD that are different, but definitely not yours) are VERY front wheel biased. Drive to the rear has a noticeable delay, and as the clutches that drive them get worn it gets worse (my XT6 requires considerable front wheel spin to get the rear to engage at all.....not ideal).

 

Manual transmissions use a much simpler AWD that sends the power to both ends equally and has a viscous LSD to prevent slip. The Forester might have a rear LSD, whereas the Legacy definitely didn't, but that'll be a pretty small difference.

 

 

So it's not a Legacy v Forester thing, it's the transmission type. 

[Ravenwoods]

7 minutes ago, Numbchux said:

Subaru automatics (there are some premium models with VTD AWD that are different, but definitely not yours) are VERY front wheel biased. Drive to the rear has a noticeable delay, and as the clutches that drive them get worn it gets worse (my XT6 requires considerable front wheel spin to get the rear to engage at all.....not ideal).

 

Manual transmissions use a much simpler AWD that sends the power to both ends equally and has a viscous LSD to prevent slip. The Forester might have a rear LSD, whereas the Legacy definitely didn't, but that'll be a pretty small difference.

 

 

So it's not a Legacy v Forester thing, it's the transmission type. 

Very interesting information. I think you are right about the delay with Drive to the rear wheels in my Legacy AT. I have noticed something but didn't know how to articulate it. 

The 98 Forester is the S model. Would that mean a rear LSD? Cosmetically our Forester is challenged. But the thing just doesn't want to die. One thing in it's favor is that a previous owner set it up for towing with an RV and so we were told that about 50,000 miles on the odometer are towing miles. So the engine would have about 250,000 miles on it instead of 299,000.

At 277,000 our radiator (Forester) got a big hole in it and the coolant escaped and my wife didn't pay any attention to the temperature gauge. When she got home it seemed there wasn't any coolant left but the engine was still running. I took the garden hose and put water in the radiator while the engine was running and got it cooled down fast. Not sure if that cold shock was the right thing to do or not but the car is still going strong 22,000 miles later. At the time we were told to expect Rod Knock to show up within a couple thousand miles and that would be the end of the engine. The only thing I did was replace the radiator, water pump, timing belt and pulleys. I did buy a spare 95 Legacy cheap that needed fixing up with new struts, front CV shafts, spark plugs and wires. This car is sitting ready to go into action if any of our other eldery Subarus suddenly quit. In total our family has Four Legacies and One Forester and the Forester is the youngest!

[Numbchux]

I don't know the Forester trim and options at all, but they started trickling rear LSD in with cold weather package outbacks about that time...

www.Cars101.com will have detailed standard/options lists that will tell you if yours is likely to have the rear LSD.

[heartless]

this is funny, because I feel the opposite..

my old 95 Legacy (with forester struts) felt much more "planted" on the road than my 2002 Forester does (both automatics)

The Forester does fine, but it just does not "feel" the same to me. slightly lighter weight and shorter wheelbase I am sure contribute to this "feeling".

i would love to have another 95 Lego again, a nice clean, mostly rust free, LS model... *dreams*

[Mitchy]

We’ve been driving our ‘99 Forester for six years, encouraged by the fact that it is faultless in traction whilst climbing our hill during the summertime on dusty dry and loose stone which becomes slippery wet lumpy mud in winter.

 The ‘97 Legacy we had also negotiated these condition with no problem. The only failing with the Legacy is that it had no dual range, the Forester’s low ratio gears we use daily.

I found the legacy’s lower centre of gravity invited me to push it harder on the open road, whereas the Forester felt taller and had more roll.

I crashed the Legacy after six months, the Forester has survived six years.

Having removed and refitted everything on these cars I would assume that the Legacy is a better handling car due to the lower CoG and slightly longer wheelbase.

 The Forester wins in off-road capability for its clearance and shorter wheelbase, plus the dual range and larger wheels.

 (And all the interior cubby holes)

 

Oh, and we don’t drive automatics so I can’t comment. 5mt all the way.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Mitchy

[idosubaru]

1 hour ago, Ravenwoods said:

Very interesting information. I think you are right about the delay with Drive to the rear wheels in my Legacy AT. I have noticed something but didn't know how to articulate it. 

The 98 Forester is the S model. Would that mean a rear LSD? Cosmetically our Forester is challenged. But the thing just doesn't want to die. One thing in it's favor is that a previous owner set it up for towing with an RV and so we were told that about 50,000 miles on the odometer are towing miles. So the engine would have about 250,000 miles on it instead of 299,000.

At 277,000 our radiator (Forester) got a big hole in it and the coolant escaped and my wife didn't pay any attention to the temperature gauge. When she got home it seemed there wasn't any coolant left but the engine was still running. I took the garden hose and put water in the radiator while the engine was running and got it cooled down fast. Not sure if that cold shock was the right thing to do or not but the car is still going strong 22,000 miles later. At the time we were told to expect Rod Knock to show up within a couple thousand miles and that would be the end of the engine. The only thing I did was replace the radiator, water pump, timing belt and pulleys. I did buy a spare 95 Legacy cheap that needed fixing up with new struts, front CV shafts, spark plugs and wires. This car is sitting ready to go into action if any of our other eldery Subarus suddenly quit. In total our family has Four Legacies and One Forester and the Forester is the youngest!

Those VLSD rear diffs can function as an open diff by that age/miles. Theres a chance it doesn’t matter if it’s LSD.

What he said, manuals are more seamless and probably the chief difference. 

You can easily install a toggle switch to “lock” the automatic 4WD. Just put it in line with the Duty C wire and toggle between normal function and “locked” 4WD on snow or off-road.  I’ve done it a bunch of times, well worth it.  It’s one wire and super easy.

you didn’t answer tire questions?  Brand and 4 digit date stamp are key, tread depth is an inadequate metric.

 

 

[el_freddo]

Wheel alignment for all four wheels will also play a part in how grounded/grippy the car feels on the road too. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[Ravenwoods]

3 hours ago, idosubaru said:

Those VLSD rear diffs can function as an open diff by that age/miles. Theres a chance it doesn’t matter if it’s LSD.

What he said, manuals are more seamless and probably the chief difference. 

You can easily install a toggle switch to “lock” the automatic 4WD. Just put it in line with the Duty C wire and toggle between normal function and “locked” 4WD on snow or off-road.  I’ve done it a bunch of times, well worth it.  It’s one wire and super easy.

you didn’t answer tire questions?  Brand and 4 digit date stamp are key, tread depth is an inadequate metric.

 

 

I looked to see the brand after I got off work: Firestone Winterforce. I didn’t have time to look for date stamp. Probably small numbers that my 59 year old eyes will find difficult to decipher without a magnifying glass. These tires have plenty of tread as well.

[Ravenwoods]

4 hours ago, idosubaru said:

Those VLSD rear diffs can function as an open diff by that age/miles. Theres a chance it doesn’t matter if it’s LSD.

What he said, manuals are more seamless and probably the chief difference. 

You can easily install a toggle switch to “lock” the automatic 4WD. Just put it in line with the Duty C wire and toggle between normal function and “locked” 4WD on snow or off-road.  I’ve done it a bunch of times, well worth it.  It’s one wire and super easy.

you didn’t answer tire questions?  Brand and 4 digit date stamp are key, tread depth is an inadequate metric.

 

 

Okay, I went out in the negative 15 Fahrenheit weather and had a look. I found a stamp on only two of the tires: 1408. Does that mean August 2014? Or 2008?

[forester2002s]

1408 means that the tire was made in the 14th week of 2008.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=11

[Ravenwoods]

13 minutes ago, forester2002s said:

1408 means that the tire was made in the 14th week of 2008.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=11

Thanks for the very interesting and useful information. 

[idosubaru]

12 hours ago, Ravenwoods said:

Okay, I went out in the negative 15 Fahrenheit weather and had a look. I found a stamp on only two of the tires: 1408. Does that mean August 2014? Or 2008?

That’s what I guessed and why I kept asking - 11 year old tires are dangerous in snow regardless of tread depth. with age they suffer most with snow traction and tend to blow out at highway speed.  The rubber “dries out” for poor snow traction.

If youre not familiar with tire materials degrading over time, you can google tire age related safety, etc.  Tread depth is meaningless here. Tire companies, government, tire rack, and others have specific time frames and guidelines for tire material life and it’s well known how dangerous old tires are.

there’s a member here who had two or three tires blow out on his car as he was driving to see me.  They were 10 years old and he rarely drove the car or drove far until driving a few hours to see me.  

[heartless]

and age is exactly the reason I decided to get new tires last fall... the ones that were on were going on 4 yrs old, and starting to get cracks in between treads - meaning dried out. Still had lots of tread left, but cracking is bad

16 hours ago, Mitchy said:

...plus the dual range...

Sadly, we did not get the dual range in Foresters here in the USA - in any form. the last ones to have dual range here were the old 80s GLs

the 95 Legacy I had I did a Forester strut swap on, and used the Forester wheels too, so it sat quite a bit taller than stock. it still felt more planted on the road to me.

The Forester does fine, don't get me wrong, especially with good snow tires, it just feels different after driving Legacy wagons for so long.

as for manual vs auto - i would love to have a manual again, but foot problems preclude that... can't use a clutch anymore, too painful.

[SUBARU3]

On 1/31/2020 at 4:23 PM, heartless said:

this is funny, because I feel the opposite..

my old 95 Legacy (with forester struts) felt much more "planted" on the road than my 2002 Forester does (both automatics)

The Forester does fine, but it just does not "feel" the same to me. slightly lighter weight and shorter wheelbase I am sure contribute to this "feeling".

i would love to have another 95 Lego again, a nice clean, mostly rust free, LS model... *dreams*

Love my Lego 1995 LS. 105K   It's a keeper!

 

[wtdash]

Tangent for VLSD. Avl. on '00+ 'S' trim models: All Weather Package: larger outside defrosting mirrors, heated front seats, windshield wiper de-icer, limited slip rear differential Limited slip new for 2000. (not available on L)"

Per Cars101.com

[Ravenwoods]

On 1/31/2020 at 1:55 PM, el_freddo said:

Wheel alignment for all four wheels will also play a part in how grounded/grippy the car feels on the road too. 

Cheers 

Bennie

I found that the rear right wheel had a bent lateral control arm (rear arm) and it seems the wheel was toed out. I finally discovered this after the rear right tire showed excessive wear on the inside so that the steel belts became exposed. So I got new control arms (both front and rear) from Rock Auto. That long lateral bolt that often needs to be cut out was no problem. Mine wasn't rusted at all and came off easily. Now that winter is starting I will soon know if that eliminates the squirrelly feeling I always experience while driving on icy roads. I used a DIY toe adjustment method I found described in a YouTube Video to set the wheel to a neutral toe. 

[idosubaru]

Good job finding that bent arm. Not always easy. Hopefully that helps the traction and tire wear  

Tires. Alignment. The end. 

There are differences in AWD, and they can get old and lazy, but almost 100% of performance issues I see are tire related. Cheap tires, old tires, warn tires, alignment…

Cheap tires degrade in performance by year two even if they have full tread.  The materials degrade quicker than good tires. Some real sucky tires will show cracking at two years like an average tire will get from sitting out in full sun for 5 years.  

Most people know so little about tires but think they know….that they’re guesses about performance are wrong. They blame the trans, the brakes, the model, the engine, the brand….it’s the tires.  They’re so confident they know tires they think it can’t be…..and it ends up being the tires. Wash rinse repeat. All the time . Even “car” people and DIY and shop owners families are wrong all the time, people who are so sure they know tires  

install brand new Nokians or Michellin snow tires with a good alignment and it’ll perform great. Seen it so many times id almost bet money on it.

You’ve already mentioned alignment issues and lower grade tires. The transmission isn’t even a talking point with what we know so far. 

Edited September 26, 2021 by idosubaru

[el_freddo]

The other difference not mentioned are springs. Firmer springs will give a better feel on the open road. 

I know my L series felt much better after the factory springs were binned for aftermarket springs. Same for our Pajero/Montero/Shogun - that's now lifted and drives much better than it did before!

Most of this will come down to the aforementioned tyres and alignment. Just thought it worth mentioning differences in springs that should be considered too. 

Cheers 

Bennie