Opinions on 2003 Legacy sedan?

[SUBARU3]

 Found a super clean 2003 Legacy L sedan with 89K on it. Seems near mint. Is 4K a good price? My biggest fear is the 2.5 SOHC engine. Reliable? When do the head gaskets go on these usually?

 

 Thanks Todd

[Numbchux]

My 2000 has 330k on it.

Head gaskets fail ~80-100k miles, but they virtually always is just an oil leak. Check the oil and don't park over nice concrete, and keep driving it. I bought our 03 with 110k and leaking gasket, drove it to over 150k before fixing it and selling it. It's annoying, but won't leave you stranded.

[moosens]

Price is not outrageous. Not for up here in the northeast where you’ll be soon enough. 

Just got an 03 GT Sedan for a parts car for my 03 Legacy wagon. Jesse - Subafreak totally approves and he is our resident Subaru tech with much experience. 
 

We have that 2.5 headgasket fear , but he says no no , not this 2.5 - the ‘00-‘04 gets a big thumbs up. 
 

If it’s really that sweet and you’re not struggling to put food in the table so I vote that you buy this one. Get it properly rust proofed. 

[mikec03]

My 02 started leaking at the head gasket at about 85k miles.  I had the HG replaced at 92K miles.  I think that you can count on the HG leaking at some point and the leak will get progressively worse.  On the other hand, nothing else on the car has failed, and it rides great.  I now have 115K miles.

I wouldn't pay $4000.  I think that the market is more like $3000. 

[3Pin]

I like that vintage of Subie and have had quite of few of them in that range. I think that i s a bit rich for a 17 year old car.  Run edmunds and kelly for your zip code and the features on the car and go form there.   I agree market in general is lower than 4k especially now.  

[heartless]

if it makes you feel any better, I too was afraid of the EJ25 series, but I gave in... I lucked into an 02 Forester - EJ251 - that I bought with 214K on the clock (pd $1400, private sale).. carfax type report said headgaskets were done around the 80-85K mark (forget the exact mileage) - it currently has just about 260K on it and running great. No signs of a 2nd failure, no major issues at all.

And guys, he is in Dallas/Fort Worth area - pretty much rust free zone, so values are gonna be a bit higher than they would be up here in the rust belt.

However, I would agree on checking values on comparable vehicles for the area

[tylertrend]

I still have my 2004 Legacy sedan 35th anniversary edition 5 speed and aside from the touchy e-throttle (CA emissions) I really like it. Solid, creak free and  corners great. I bought mine with 160K on it and changed the leaking gaskets right away. Has 185K now and doesn't even weep from anywhere. I've considered selling mine recently but wouldn't settle for much less than $4k because mine is MINT - interior, rust, body. Great cars though.. don't wear tires like the successor sedans/ Outbacks.

[SUBARU3]

 Actually now found a 2008 with 77K on it for  3K    Opinions on that one? I'm spooked about ANY of these newer Subaru engines!! I want reliability like I'm accustomed to with the EA71  EA81 and the EJ22 (up to 1996)  Seems like all the newer engines are just fragile!

 

[lmdew]

Here you go, a bit of work and keep that 2.2 reliability and ease of maintenance.  94 Legacy $1200

https://westslope.craigslist.org/cto/d/montrose-1994-subaru-legacy/7113282509.html

[3Pin]

I prefer the interior quality,fit and finish as well as engine and drive train on the 00-04 version.  If it is a Texas car and not in the salt belt like us, I would go that path.

 

[SUBARU3]

 Yes...TX cars here. I will keep you posted!

 

[Numbchux]

On 4/25/2020 at 2:01 AM, SUBARU3 said:

 Actually now found a 2008 with 77K on it for  3K    Opinions on that one? I'm spooked about ANY of these newer Subaru engines!! I want reliability like I'm accustomed to with the EA71  EA81 and the EJ22 (up to 1996)  Seems like all the newer engines are just fragile!

 

Well, the truth is, you won't find anything as simple and unkillable as an EA81 or early EJ22 made in the last 20 years. Cost, emissions and fuel efficiency have all come before longevity.

The first gen EZ30 is probably the closest, but if it does go wrong, it's a lot harder to work on.

 

But, compared to other offerings in that vintage, the EJ252/253 are pretty decent engines. 

 

The 08 will be a EJ253 (assuming it's not a turbo), which means variable valve timing. Probably an immobilizer ($200 key). And if the check engine light comes on, it disables the cruise.

[idosubaru]

On 4/25/2020 at 3:01 AM, SUBARU3 said:

 Actually now found a 2008 with 77K on it for  3K    Opinions on that one? I'm spooked about ANY of these newer Subaru engines!! I want reliability like I'm accustomed to with the EA71  EA81 and the EJ22 (up to 1996)  Seems like all the newer engines are just fragile!

 

To the extent that they are all old and a predominant majority have been subject to some type of headgasket attention by replacement or additive campaign (particularly the ones you're looking at) - this doesn't much matter and what everyone said is practically relevant.  But it's also somewhat misleading depending what and why you're comparing.  

All EJ's have headgasket issues and "headgasket mileage" isn't a relevant indicator for purchase between two competing EJ25's.  00-04 EJ25's commonly failed under their existing 36,000 mile warranty and all were offered a free additive campaign and 100,000 mile extended headgasket warranties. 

00-04's leak, usually coolant externally, and progressively get worse over long periods of time.  They are less likely to leak oil, but can.  You can drive them 100,000 miles just topping the coolant off, so they're not all that concerning.  Of course shops would just say "headgasket" and people freak out, and to their defense, many shops may not have known that this was a very slowly propagating failure.  And we are just post-EJ25D which had eggregious, stranding, catrastrophic headgasket failures so some people/shops would be gun shy.  

Anyway - so the 00-04's frequently have issues but they're not that alarming at all.  They rarely can overheat as a lone symptom, but it's rare/not common. 

05-09 are basically the same except they leak oil and it usually get worse much more quickly.  Driving them more than 20k with an existing oil leak may or may not be a big deal. But again - no stranding issues or anything.   They are also prone to a low rate of lower end bearing failures because you can drive with low oil without any symptoms and destroy the lower ends.  5 years ago I could pick one up every week with a blown engine.  The 00-04's usually leaked coolant and would offer incentive or symptoms to keep it topped it off, most people aren't going to drive overheating, steaming, etc.  The 05-09's are more risky if people don't know or try to limp them along and forget or dont' check oil. 

So to put this all in perspective when buying, I don't consider mileage relevant at all. It is slightly, but it's no more order of magnitude than anything else is susceptible to higher mileages...fluids, trans, bushings, rust...: 

1. All of what I said is true of factory installed original HG's.  Replaced HG's have more variable failure modes.  Aftermarket gaskets have been known to fail in months, seen it many times (not personally but someone else doing it). 

2. In terms of headgaskets the 00-04 are superior.  It's the most benign headgasket issue due to it being more obvious, having more symptoms, and Subaru was more proactive towards them early on.  And they get worse more slowly over long periods of time - giving you 10's of thousands of miles and years to plan to repair it.  So buy one that's currently not leaking or repaired properly with Subaru gaskets and heads resurfaced, and you can almost plan on 50k of never having to worry about it.  

3. If they've never had bad oil leaks or had HG's replaced early and you have a great feeling it never ran low on oil - they're also a fine candidate.   But verifying that is kind of tough.  You just don't want one that ever ran low on oil.  Those are asymptomatic and risky. 

Or just buy one with a blown engine and see if Subaru still sells the $2,000 OEM engines.  $1,000 rust free blown engine, $2,000 new Subaru engine, $1,500 to install it - and you're got a rust free zero miles engine with 36,000 mile warranty for $4,500. 

[idosubaru]

I recently took a friend to a well known local Subaru used car dealer, I'm frequently helping people buy subaru's, often college students.  They have 30-50 Subar's for sale.  I looked at 10 05-09's and 7 of them had currently leaking headgaskets - all oil seeping.  One or two were hard to distinguish - I didn't have good access and maybe it was a CV boot slinging grease and I saw one incorrectly - but even still it was 50% or more of the ones on the lot for sale had at least the beginning of external oil leaks.  

Also - take note where you're buying from.  

Which cars are more likely to be traded in to a dealer and sent to auction - ones with leaks or without?  This place I just mentioned sources all their cars from east coast auctions and is getting traded in vehicles.  it's no surprise many of them have existing oil leaks. 

I prefer private sales - someone lost a job, is moving, got a promotion, has a growing family, retired and is tired of driving a manual trans, is on medical rotations and moving, needs to tow more...is moving away from the vehicle for clear reasons.  All of those, and more, are people I've bought cars from.  It's worth the extra work and personally, and all the people I've helped over the decades by Subaru's - there's been a clear delineation.  The dealer cars are far more likely to have issues, the private sale vehicles were excellent condition. 

From that experience I pay as much, or more attention, to the person, than the car. 

[idosubaru]

On 4/30/2020 at 12:23 PM, idosubaru said:

3. If they've never had bad oil leaks or had HG's replaced early and you have a great feeling it never ran low on oil - they're also a fine candidate.   But verifying that is kind of tough.  You just don't want one that ever ran low on oil.  Those are asymptomatic and risky. 

Ieft this hanging - This comment applies to the 05-09 EJ25s. This is why they’re marginally somewhat less desirable than 00-04s, unless you can feel very confident of the oil loss history.

EJ25 HG are tough because there’s rampant anecdotal opinions on them.  One well respected shop who’s dedicated web space to this, says bad grounds cause HG  issues. Whatever minor truth that may hold is nearly bleached out by the fact that HG prone engines have the same grounds and propensity for bad grounds as engines with no headgasket issues. Or in the northeast where I rarely see a Subaru without broken and corroded ground straps, even on engines without HG issues. Those kinds of anecdotal response to EJ25s is common, inaccurate, incomplete, or impractical. 

Edited May 3, 2020 by idosubaru