Zero compressioin EA82 Cyl #2

[rickyhils]

Unknown rebuild. EA82 non turbo SPFI . Looks to have been sitting quite a few years. Assembly lube still in place, so never has been run. Older "Three Star" timing belts. Oil pump ok. Water pump ok. Looks like a knowledgable rebuild though. I just swapped it into my Loyale. Runs like crap. Compression [cold] #1 #3 #4 shows 125 to 135 psi. #2 shows ZERO compression. Cam lobe at closed still can blow air [hose into spark plug hole] out of exhaust manifold.   I can readily remove LEFT cam carrier. And can readily remove LEFT head if it gets that far.

I have some Marvel Mystery Oil laying around. ha ha ha ha.  No, I won't be using THAT. 

Some testing showed that cylinder #2 Exhaust Valve is stuck open. Blowing into spark plug hole with a hose shows intake valve opens and closes. That's with cam lobe at max and then at 90 degrees [closed] . But exhaust valve shows no difference whether cam lobe max or at 90 degrees [should be closed by then] .   ???

Edited May 13, 2020 by rickyhils
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[el_freddo]

This will sound crazy, but have you tried pulling or pushing on the valve to see if you can free it up? 

Cheers 

Bennie

[idosubaru]

1 hour ago, el_freddo said:

This will sound crazy, but have you tried pulling or pushing on the valve to see if you can free it up? 

Cheers 

Bennie

does the valve spring and retainer look normal, any rust, is the rocker arm still in place, is it just a tiny amount hung open, or a lot, why isn't that falling out, have you tried to move it?

how long is the cam lobe and rocker arm in contact with the valve retainer?

bore scope to see if there's anything hanging the valve inside the cylinder.

[rickyhils]

* Will need to  remove cam carrier to see further. Will remove radiator hoses, engine mount nuts, air intake, and jack up from transmission to make that easier.

* Will get a tool to compress valve spring and remove keepers. At least I know to FIRST PUT SOME ROPE INTO THE CYLINDER FIRST and then bring the piston up. Will then see if valve can be moved by hand. I guess that a light weight hammer for some careful tapping might likely be in order.

* A bore scope is a great idea. But that might still give cause to remove head to fully address valve issue.

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by rickyhils

[idosubaru]

i might be missing it but i don't see any corrossion that's note worthy.  i would think you could get some feeler gauges or small screw drivers or something down there to see how much clearance there is (if any) or press on the top of the valve spring to compress the valve spring and valve to get it to move through some range of motion (into the cylinder).  then maybe it'll free up and come back up as well?

i would guess there's either something physically obstructing the valve or it's stuck and will easily free up and start moving without much effort.  i'd want to at least give it some light encouragement to free up on it's own to avoid all that work...if possible, without damaging anything else. 

seems like compressing the valve spring on that valve should get it to move in at least somewhat if it's not totally bottomed out, which is hard to imagine - if that were the case you'd have a ton of clearance. 

[rickyhils]

Looks like the only way to safely compress the spring is to remove the cam carrier?

[el_freddo]

Or be a bush mechanic and get a flat head screwdriver and wedge between the cam and cam follower, then lever from there... 

does the valve compress any when the engine is rotated? 

Cheers 

Bennie

[rickyhils]

Bennie,  I now have the left cam area clear and all 8 bolts are loosened up, ready to whack it with a chunk of wood and a dead blow hammer. There is ultra gray sealant on it. That being said . . .  I'll give it another look-see with a flat head screwdriver. I like your approach, and it sure would save all that hassle putting the cam back together.

That exhaust valve is now better in view . Will take a look. I might just play some Rolf Harris to get me in the mood. ha ha

[idosubaru]

1 hour ago, rickyhils said:

Bennie,  I now have the left cam area clear and all 8 bolts are loosened up, ready to whack it with a chunk of wood and a dead blow hammer. There is ultra gray sealant on it. That being said . . .  I'll give it another look-see with a flat head screwdriver. I like your approach, and it sure would save all that hassle putting the cam back together.

That exhaust valve is now better in view . Will take a look. I might just play some Rolf Harris to get me in the mood. ha ha

Those cam cases are annoying - tons of cleaning and careful - get 5 feet of perfect bead on there and take note of the proper dry/cure/wait/set time, get it in place without disturbing the bead and if it’s the drivers side it’s the extra long one for the disty drive gear......it’s worth attempting to get it to move without pulling it.  
 

if you wedge a small pry bar between the cam lobe and rocker that should get it to move with some prying. It takes a good deal of pressure to press the valve so you probably won’t get it to go in much but it should move.  I’ve done it before with an engine in the vehicle and valve cover removed.  I can get a slight bit of travel on the valve, but not much.  

If the valve is hung open then the rocker should be “loose” at the the low point of the cam lobe on that rocker. Is That happening?

unless the HLA is hoses and sticking up too high and exerting pressure on the valve at all times...if that’s even possible.  I’ve seen HLAs seize in “high”‘positions but never enough to hang a valve. 

[rickyhils]

Yes. The #2 cyl exhaust rocker seemed not in the correct position and it fell sideways when I carefully prodded it. I have a little hands-on experience with this car. I did the HGs [Fel-pro perma torque] 12 years ago [150k miles ago] . But today I didn't want to mangle things up too much, so I just took the cam carrier off. A few light scratches on that #2 exhaust cam, but not where the lobe is high. I was then able to work all four valves and all feel and look ok. A little hand turn on the crankshaft and a thumb on # 2 spark plug hole gave the expected little burst of pressure.  It had to have been that rocker that was hung up. 

At this point I don't mind the hassle of reassembly. 12 years ago I used zip ties to hold the rockers in place. But I heard that a dab of heavy grease and jacking up the left front helps during reassembly.  And why didn't I catch this when it was still on the engine stand? Arghhh!

Edited May 14, 2020 by rickyhils
spelling

[Step-a-toe]

OP told us it was unknown rebuild

Swear Step-a-toe suggested to look for rocker straddling things in your other post

It's OK, breath and text us cheap

so, a compression test again and tell us you have fixed it

Edited May 14, 2020 by Step-a-toe

[el_freddo]

1 hour ago, Step-a-toe said:

OP told us it was unknown rebuild

Maybe 12 years ago he built a different EA82... then got this one recently as an unknown rebuild. 

The engine stand comment was most likely about it’s check over before install.

Cheers 

Bennie

[rickyhils]

Step-a-toe -  I did not in any way mean to discount your suggestion of a straddling rocker being the problem. Perhaps I didn't readily visualize what such a thing actually could have been. The term "straddling rocker" went over my head, and next time I won't act so flippant about things I don't know of. So, credit to YOU for that. And, being that the #2 cyl exhaust valve was then WAY out of easy view in the car, my level of experience would not have given me much hands-on "know how" as to how to go about addressing that problem with much self assurance, and that's why I later chose to remove the cam. And it was AFTER I did a little engine tear down that I had a better view, with my ignorance of the term "straddling rocker" behind me. Now, had it been the INTAKE valve, then yes, I would have easily been able to spot it as per your suggestion, that is IF I were smart enough to follow up on terms that are new to me.  I am being long winded, I know. But YOUR willingness to help here is of tremendous value to all. And next time I'll try to use more of my brain.  Cheers.   

[rickyhils]

Yes -  The HGs that were done 12 years were on the original EA82 in this car, and it is the same engine that I removed from this car last week. Oil needed sealing up. It had intermittent rough idle from sticky valves. Clutch needed changing. 326k miles. 

A few months ago I found this rebuilt EA82 long block on Craiglist for $100 bucks. Seller had no history of who did the work, but it had signs of a quality rebuild, as all openings were capped off professionally. Done years ago by the looks of it. That is the one that I put on the engine stand a week ago and was checking it out before installing. It only had assembly lube in it. And rotating the crank bolt went smooth enough. Connecting rods and pistons looked ok from the bottom. All I did to it was to make sure the oil pan was sealed up good before I put oil in it. But I failed to notice that straddling rocker. That is why I would hear the odd faint "tick" and not know what it was when I rotated the crank a few times while it was still on the stand.  

Anyway- When I get it all put back together I will do a compression test for reference. 

Thanks ALL

[rickyhils]

The EA82 of unknown rebuild is now up and running with no snags. Fired right up. Bottom end sounds quiet. Revs to 3k rpm without any snags. No oil or water leaks as yet. After warm up there is a wee bit of intermitant rough idle, and a quick throttle boost has a wee bit of hesitation. Will let it cool down and look at the spark plugs.

ALL YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN A GREAT SUPPORT. THANKS

[el_freddo]

Awesome news! 

Now go and run that thing in properly! 

Cheers 

Bennie

[idosubaru]

awesome ! That’s why we do this!

ive seen freshly assembled EA/ER engine rocker arms slip off immediately. I should have said that explicitly.

That’s why I asked first, and mentioned it a number of times, about where the play was precisely.  the valves on these can’t really be hung open, except maybe a minor amount, without mention of rocker and cam lobe positioning. 

if you incur issues in the near future you might want to check them again!  I’ve only seen it in the first minute or two of start up, never long after, so you’re probably in the clear. 

High mileage/poorly taken care of engines can have too much wear in the HLA seat so the HLA sits lower than it should as well. GD has seen it, I have not. They usually rust away before that mileage here. Haha. I’d probably shim it out if I ran across that. 

[rickyhils]

I want to run it properly for sure!  Only FWD so I won't be slinging mud up on the fenders, but I do like the 5 spd trans. And those HLA could certainly be a direct cause of the "rocker straddling". That is the term that I learned from "el_freddo".  Will stay with 10W-40 oil for now. I did get the STP oil, and for no particular reason. The old engine w/326k miles would do the tick of death ToD and if someone was standing nearby I'd say "yeah it sounds bad, but in a minute it will just go away." And it always did go away. And whenever the ToD showed up all I would do is restart the car and it was dead quiet again. When the rebuilt was on the stand I used a drill with a socket to test the oil pump [timing belt off] and down the distributor hole was a sudden gush of oil. That was indeed comforting to see.

And due to the project activity at hand I was able to spot a fresh split in the c/v boot at the wheel end. So, earlier today I got out my Ebay reman c/v axle to install. It fit the transmission spline and the steering knuckle ok, but it was a bit too short on the travel so I had to abort. Luckily the grease in the old one was still fresh with no grit feel to it. So I'll try out the set of Dorman c/v boots and then put that axle back to use. I don't know why I made a wrong purchase as the spline count was the same. 26? Or does the passenger Right side use a shorter travel? 

Yeah, the EA82 has good and maybe not so good things, but I like them anyway. Even when having to down shift on a grade. ha ha ha 

[idosubaru]

5 hours ago, rickyhils said:

And those HLA could certainly be a direct cause of the "rocker straddling".
 

And due to the project activity at hand I was able to spot a fresh split in the c/v boot at the wheel

 Or does the passenger Right side use a shorter travel? 

1. The only ones I’ve seen do it have sat for extended periods of time...like presumably yours did too. I’ve never had it happen on a car that was taken apart and reassembled shortly after. 

2. Reboot the axle. If it’s a Subaru axle keep it and reboot it. They last forever and never fail.  Clean regrease and reboot.  I’ve rebooted nasty greaseless or filthy noisy vibrating OEm axles and they’re fine after regressing.   Aftermarket axles suck and fail all the time. They’re fine for ghetto repairs and people limping an EA82 around for craigslist or limited use, or wanting easy replacements for wheeling, but I would never have one on a daily driver or if I wanted reliability.  I have a long list of brand new axle failures, multiples blowing apart while driving in less than 100 miles.

3. axles are interchangeable side to side. Are you sure the axle was too short?  Did you meausure or compare them both side by side on the ground laying next to each other extended and compressed? If it’s the right axle then first guess it was not extended on the inner joint or the suspension geometry was off for install.  I’ve seen the wrong part from an auto store and I’ve seen the wrong part in the wrong box but it’s pretty rare. 

[Step-a-toe]

Absolutely no problem at all with our latest Subie addict Ricky. The internet allows all sorts of dodgy suggestions for fixes

i have also been guilty of sometimes lacking straight forward expression and instruction , and only ever one straddling rocker on a front cylinder on the RHS - I could never forget

. You only do it once,so welcome to that club. It was easy fixed, no parts harmed, no parts required.

But hang on, didn't you take this problem to a mechanic shop and they, the qualified, experienced and practising mechanics not find it ? If so, you may have learnec a new confidence in your skills and perseverance 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Step-a-toe

[Step-a-toe]

RETENSION THE HEAD GASKET AFTER FIRST OPERATING TEMP REACHED WITH OVERNIGHT COOL DOWN

ANY QUESTIONS AS TO WHY AND HOW

DO NOT HESITATE TO ASK

[rickyhils]

YES. I did do a retension [re-torque] . I first took it out for a little test drive when it ran like crap at first, so it went up to temp. I did the retension it when the cam was off. And for the right side I have a ground down 17mm socket so I only need to remove the valve cover.   

The retension I did in the correct order starting at the centre bolt and then working around one by one in the correct expanding "box" formation. I put a dab of clean oil between the bolt head and the washer before tightening. Some bolts had that "jumping" little click when approaching the 47 ft/lb max. I did not want to open a "can of worms" and do a thread chase on each bolt. But, I know that steel against aluminum is a "no contest" situation. ha ha  . And, it was that left side bolt #8 [a corner bolt] that felt dodgy when I loosened it up. It took a little more pull on the wrench to work it out 2 or 3 turns and I was very concerned that I might have been pulling out some aluminum threads. But ALL GOOD as it went back to 47 ft/lb with none of that scary "give" in the feel of the wrench.  

And, I refused to wimp out and go to a real professional mechanic. In this case "tenatious" is my middle name. 12 years ago [on the removed EA82], I was 100% successful in stripping out one head bolt. [Bravo, Ricky!] . As luck would have it, the bolt hole was just the right size for a Heli-Coil thread tap. And, against better advice, I installed two (2) Heli coils into the depth of the hole and the engine was good-to-go. And, my lack of forethought also led to adding water improperly to that same engine when it overheated. I heard a metallic "TICK" and knew that I had just ruined the block. But after properly using CRC engine block sealer I was once again good to go, and that was 12 years and 150k miles ago.

Two of the main things that led to my car repairing history are 1.) It was either do-it-myself or junk the car. 2.) Once I got a little familiar with the workings of a Subaru car I had so much admiration for the quality and logic of the design and the solid construction that I made my mind up to keep going.

[rickyhils]

C/V axle reboot.  This looks like a good axle. All internal parts show no cracks or scrapes.  The cracked boot was caught in time and the inside still had the clean grease. I have the proper re-boot kit from EMPI. The other axle pictured here I got from Ebay a while back. Turns out it is not for FWD Loyale. The splines match up, but it is a little too short when extended, the inboard fitting looks different, the shaft is thicker, and the boot band recesses are in the wrong place.  What car is this axle for? It looks like it might be reputable reman perhaps.

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by rickyhils
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[DaveT]

The one with the green paint, and the high number of ribs on the inner is an OEM axle.   The other, who knows.

 

[rickyhils]

That means its a keeper. I'll get a few extra sets of EMPI boots while they are still available.  Thanks.