Cobbling together a Legacy; transfer case question

[Tillaru]

Greetings!

I'm a mechanic, German car and electrics specialist, haven't done much with Subarus beyond brakejobs and fluid changes. I'm helping a friend get his collection of lawn ornaments sorted out, three of which are Subaru. One is an 87 Loyale, another is an 89 Legacy, both 5MT wagons that don't run, and the third is also a first-gen Legacy but I don't know any other details yet. The first has factory AC and a transfer case lever. The second is disassembled and has a "built" (allegedly by a retired Subaru tech) NA motor laying in the trunk, a freshly rebuilt transmission installed, and no T-case lever.

I've been asked to make a good one out of the three, for use as a general-purpose rig for a rental/guest property he has out in the middle of nowhere, on forest roads with hills. Pending what I see when #3 shows up, my thinking is: use the 89 as a base, the engine it comes with, the transmission already in it, and the 87's manual transfer case. Will it fit the newer trans? If not, will the whole older trans/case assembly fit the newer engine? FWIW, the 89 appears to have a pull-style clutch release. What else needs to change? Driveshaft? Rear axle?

Edited May 24, 2020 by Tillaru

[el_freddo]

Welcome to the forum @Tillaru! 

If you want comfort, go the legacy build. They came as 2wd, AWD single range and AWD dual range. Without other mods they don’t fit the loyale and vice versa. 

If the Legacy doesn’t have a rear diff (either of them) then go the loyale. The rear suspension in the 2wd needs to be swapped for that of the AWD setup  

If you (or the guests) need 4wd, the loyale is the go. 

If you want a better low range in the Legacy (AWD), you can fit the low range from the Loyale with some gearbox surgery. See here for the details on that mod: 

https://ausubaru.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=13511 

If the Legacy gearboxes don’t have the low range lever, then you can’t put the good low range into the EJ gearbox. 

You could fit the loyale’s gearbox with an adaptor plate and some custom front drive shafts (and probably a custom tailshaft too), and swap the rear diff to ensure the ratios are the same.

or you could do an EJ engine swap from the Legacy into the loyale for some extra get up and go! It does involve the computer wiring loom swap to run the EJ engine. You’ll need an adaptor plate and upgrade the fuel system to efi spec. 

Hope this helps. 

Cheers 

Bennie

[Tillaru]

Thanks. #2 (89 Legacy) is a single-range AWD, with a rear axle and no range selector. So if I got this right, the Loyale's gearbox will not bolt up to the Legacy engine? I forget what the Loyale's T-case lever said; my memory is both dual-range and FWD/4WD switching, but it's foggy. I'm less interested in low range , more in part-time 4WD with a locked (or no) center diff. Custom parts are probably out of the budget; default is to assemble #2 with the trans it already has.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Tillaru

[GeneralDisorder]

Just crush the 87. Nothing useful there. You can't, and shouldn't, use any of the parts on a Legacy. 

Fix one of the Legacy's. Go into a holding pattern till you get #3 and find out the condition. 

Also being you are in Portland, OR where my shop is - word of advise to you - just scrap all 3 of these "lawn ornaments" after cherry picking a few parts and buy a running/driving 90-94 Legacy AWD automatic WAGON. You can likely get the nicest example around for $1500..... which makes it basically not even worth spending significant labor on repairing something that's been sitting for ages. Forget the 5MT's and anything that's not a wagon and if the plan is to take it through any amount of off-road or back roads and into the back country just stick with an automatic. Many reasons for this which you can research if you choose, but trust me just crush all that garbage.

The auto will do what you want and can be locked. It's also much smarter with a computer to aid traction control and has a built-in low range (it's called a torque converter). 

GD

Edited May 24, 2020 by GeneralDisorder

[Tillaru]

I'm near PDX but the Lawn in question is way out in the sticks, half an hour from the nearest gas station. Automatic? No way no how. I'll do my research all the same, though. All three of these ornaments were basically free, so between that and transportation logistics out here, I don't see the owner going for the "Fucitol and start over" option.

Regarding the transfer case interchange - are you saying it won't fit, or that we shouldn't do it?

Edited May 24, 2020 by Tillaru

[GeneralDisorder]

59 minutes ago, Tillaru said:

I'm near PDX but the Lawn in question is way out in the sticks, half an hour from the nearest gas station. Automatic? No way no how. I'll do my research all the same, though. All three of these ornaments were basically free, so between that and transportation logistics out here, I don't see the owner going for the "Fucitol and start over" option.

Regarding the transfer case interchange - are you saying it won't fit, or that we shouldn't do it?

Both. 

And yeah do the research. And don't say I didn't warn you. I've only been doing this for 20 years....... checkout my post count. LOL. The Auto's are much better. Wheel circles around the MT's. 

And yes - the "Fucitol" option is absolutely the best. You'll get several hundreds in scrap value and that can go toward a $700 Automatic wagon (they are REALLY cheap). I use these things as loaners at my shop - last one I bought was $300 and had 112k on it. Needed a HG..... Keep whatever parts you like for spares and send the rest to China for smelting. 

GD

Edited May 24, 2020 by GeneralDisorder

[el_freddo]

Subaru’s don’t have a transfer case in the traditional sense of the idea. 

The low range is on the input shaft located above the front diff. The actual transfer gears for rear drive are at the back of the gearbox and are dependant on the pinion shaft as to whether they’ll interchange or not. 

While GD has strong opinions on crushing etc, I’m the opposite and I’m sure there are others on here the same. The loyale is a great car, but underpowered and parts are generally harder to find, but not impossible. 

I’m glad GD wasn’t around earlier (as in 40+ years ago) with the same ideals - otherwise we wouldn’t have any classics or vintage vehicles! Nor will these Subaru’s make it to that status if they’re extinct! 

I understand the whole dollar over effort thing but I don’t understand why our society throws things away as soon as it becomes too hard - then we wonder why the younger generations give up once the going gets a little rough!! 

So getting back on the topic (that got out of hand sorry), you need to look at what the owner expects from the vehicle. If it’s just dirt roads or used logging tracks with suitable gradients for trucks then the single range setup would suffice. 

If it’s really about climbing things the decent low range or the auto and you might want to look into a lift. 

If the end of the day, it’s about what the owner wants - so long as it’s achievable! 

Cheers 

Bennie

[GeneralDisorder]

I don't throw things away that are actually useful. 

My current fleet: 

1969 GMC C2500

1984 GMC Jimmy

1986 Pontiac Trans Am

1991 Pontiac Firebird Formula

1991 Subaru Sport Sedan

1986 GL Hatch

So - as you can CLEARLY see - I have nothing against old vehicles..... that I can get parts for. In fact I prefer them. I deal with newer stuff all the time and can easily afford them - I can fix them (or even just point at the thing and have my minions do it) - but I have no desire to complicate my life with CANBUS and dozens of modules..... I own a Picoscope and I have no desire to pull it out for my own cars.

The Subaru's aren't daily driven and certainly aren't taken outside the towing range. Also I own a Subaru/Performance shop so I have access to an infinite used parts supply and I know all the locals that have parts. And yet even I can't lay hands on an EA82 oil pump......

A clapped out EA82 lawn ornament is worse than useless. Can't get any parts for the thing. Basically the same reason I'm retiring the GL hatch for actual off-road duties (even with the 10" lift and Nissan transfer case). Can't get parts to repair it when I inevitably break it off-road. Also the Jimmy is on 35's and has a 350 HP V8.... so there's that. 

The basic problem with the Loyale is that you have to start your own junk yard to keep it on the road. No axles, no hubs, no engine components..... it's a wasteland out there for EA82 parts. Can't even buy basics hardly - brake pads and struts are almost non-existent. Etc. Add to this that it was a ho-hum platform in the first place that was essentially a marketing solution looking for a problem that never existed. The platform was terrible to work on with the EA81 and EJ22 platforms on either side of it both easier and more reliable. 

And the simple fact is that a couple of lawn ornament Legacy's that haven't moved in years and are probably full of mold, etc..... aren't worth their value in scrap except for maybe a few parts to donate to the few that are still on the road. It makes no financial sense to even bother with such garbage when for less than the labor and parts to get one on the road you can simply buy one that's nicer and is still driving. You can find some old grandma example for peanuts in nice condition with low mileage if you look around a bit. They aren't worth beans. 

GD

[Tillaru]

I spent my 20's living in a community whose ethos largely centered around deconstructing and undoing the mainstream culture of waste, fashion, ignorance, and disposability. I no longer live in community (not going to go down that tangent right now) but maintain those ideals as an important part of my way of being. Bennie, your comments resonate with that, as well as with my fondness for old iron that still works (or can be made to), especially when it's in many ways superior to modern bloated crap; we're on the same page here.

@GD: thank you for your experience and warnings, but regarding automatics, I don't wanna hear about it. No slushbox, no way, no how, end of story. You might as well advise me to get a helicopter because it'll fly circles around a car. It's a non-starter.

Regarding Loyale parts availability, that is a meaningful consideration, and again, thanks for your informed input. We'll probably ditch the 87 one way or another.

I've built enough old rigs, for myself and for customers, to have developed a preference for doing a big overhaul right away, right the first time. I find this less trouble long-term than addressing issues piecemeal. This is one reason we'd rather assemble the parts collection than find a runner.

EDIT: it's nominally a GL, not a Loyale. Same difference?

The owner expects a reliable low-maintenance general-purpose vehicle for hauling people and moderate cargo on hilly dirt roads. It might see a logging trail once in a while, but not rock crawling or anything like that. Low range is optional. Being able to switch between FWD and 4WD is more important.

Ok, so Loyale gearbox stays in the Loyale. Back to my mission: what are my options for turning the Legacy into a part-time 4WD? Can the trans be modified? Is there another trans that'll bolt up?

Edited May 25, 2020 by Tillaru

[GeneralDisorder]

Just now, Tillaru said:

Ok, so Loyale gearbox stays in the Loyale. Back to my mission: what are my options for turning the Legacy into a part-time 4WD? Can the trans be modified? Is there another trans that'll bolt up?

There are no options for that. And there are no EJ part-time transmissions.

The auto's can be modded for locked 4WD..... as I already pointed out. The MT's cannot. In addition they don't need a low range because torque converter. 

What's your beef with auto's exactly? The 4EAT automatic is a marvel of late 80's engineering. It can be locked into 4WD, it has torque multiplication, no clutch to wear out, and when in AWD mode it can intelligently transfer power. 

The MT's are completely dumb. They are stuck in AWD with a 4kg viscous coupler - lift one wheel or lose traction at one wheel and they just stop moving entirely, they have no torque multiplication so you have to run at everything at top speed to get over obstacles or slip the clutch, they wear out syncro's and rear input shaft bearings, and then there's the clutch..... those need replacement as well. 

The auto wins in EVERY category. Period. 

GD

[Tillaru]

8 minutes ago, GeneralDisorder said:

The auto wins in EVERY category. Period.

Two more periods after that one. Followed by "except weight, fuel economy, maintainability, and most of all the driver's connection with the car and control over it."

A cursory glance at parts availability shows at least three brand-name options for front and rear shocks: Sachs, Monroe, and Gabriel. What's this about them being hard to find?

Edited May 25, 2020 by Tillaru

[GeneralDisorder]

2 hours ago, Tillaru said:

Two more periods after that one. Followed by "except weight, fuel economy, maintainability, and most of all the driver's connection with the car and control over it."

You're just wrong. They have locking torque converters so fuel economy is virtually identical. Weight on the Subaru transaxle is about the same either way. The auto might be 25lbs heavier. The connection to the drivers is of no use when the thing breaks or can't move. As usual with people that have an unreasonable aversion to auto's... the real problem is a lack of understanding and a fear of not knowing how it works/how to maintain and repair it. Fortunately the 4EAT is a near bulleproof transmission and rarely requires any input from a mechanic other than to change the fluid every 60k. They very often go 300k+. One of my tech's has a very beat-down 2001 Forester with 290k on it that's got the original transmission - having defiantly outlasted 4 owners and 2 engines. 

So an auto that has a switch for 4WD, the ability to select gears manually, hold gears (such as 2nd) for less slip on take-off, and a torque converter for "low range" has less control than a manual? LOL. 

And what exactly are you planning to "maintain" on the MT that you can't on the auto? LOL. 

GD

Edited May 25, 2020 by GeneralDisorder

[GeneralDisorder]

16 minutes ago, Tillaru said:

A cursory glance at parts availability shows at least three brand-name options for front and rear shocks: Sachs, Monroe, and Gabriel. What's this about them being hard to find?

All of those are crap unfortunately and most are just working through remaining stock. KYB has pretty well left the EA market. 30 year old Subaru's aren't on any manufacturers radar for replacement parts. What's out there is what's left and when it's gone there will be no more. The Legacy on the other hand - you could bolt right up some 2007 WRX suspension for example. Same stuff. You CANNOT get an oil pump for the EA82. But the Legacy engine could use the oil pump from a 2020 STI...... All the EJ stuff will be available for a long time.

GD

[Step-a-toe]

Here in Australia I can't understand what you guys do to EA82 to need new oil pumps. Most do near 400,000km and whole car is just trashed, except maybe a gearbox for an EA81.

I once compared the weight of a 4EAT (113kg) to the (55kg) of a part time 4WD box but forgot 16 kg of flywheel and clutch. A fella locally ditched his my way claiming he loved the difference in fuel, handling since ditching his lard arse auto.

I can see GDs point in going awd auto for a loaner in the bush, and their abilities. And it sounds like good advice

The Loyale EA82 can be a nice, light, reliable and capable beast. The 5MT needs no computer

I still like my EA stuff after 25 years, my EJ stuff is still in boxes and non going vehicles

And GD I am thinking of reboring an EA82 to make use of some new flat top pistons. Machining guy seems to think no problem getting bearings or parts to do heads

The oil pump has done 90,000 km and some turkey pulled inlet manifold and let coolant rust the bore a little

[Tillaru]

The automatic issue is a dead horse. It was dead on arrival. Cold, stiff, and rotten. Convincing me to use an auto is about as futile as convincing you why manuals are superior. Let's find something else to beat.

Ok, I'm fairly inclined to not bother with the Loyale/GL. I looked up oilpumps and sure enough, it's discouraging. Will probably throw on a timing belt (already have the kit), air up the tires, and sell it. That horse is dead, too.

As for the shocks, I can't speak for Gabriel, but I've been using Monroe and Sachs for ages. Cheap Monroes are garbage, but the OESpectrum line has earned its status as the default for my customers' cars, unless they're nicer German cars, in which case I default to Boge/Sachs. They're the OEM for many Mercedes and BMW. Have you ever driven a Bimmer or Benz with original suspension in good shape? If you haven't, PM me and I'll let you check out my E34 with 2 years on a head-to-toe suspension rebuild. Why do you say they're crap? And what would you consider non-crap?

Huh, so there was some quantum shift when the EJ motor came out; everything before is one group and everything since is more or less interchangeable?

I started poking at car #2 a bit earlier. Is there a bolt-on solution for this idiotic motorized seatbelt?

Edited May 25, 2020 by Tillaru

[el_freddo]

2 hours ago, Tillaru said:

Huh, so there was some quantum shift when the EJ motor came out; everything before is one group and everything since is more or less interchangeable?

Essentially you’re correct there. The EA81 of the MY/Leone model before the L series/Loyale/GL was bullet proof and I believe it was destined for the L series/Loyale/GL until Subaru’s competitors had over head cam marketing and “performance” - hence the box cam abomination of the EA82 with small rubber bands as cam belts. 

The L series/Loyale/GL should have come with the EA81 and a later option of the EJ series engine. The EJ22 is an awesome perk up for the L series/Loyale/GL! 

Here in Oz I don’t have issues getting parts I need, but I’m also not running an EA82 drivetrain in my L series. 

I too am not a fan of the auto off-road. All good going up hills, but descending with brakes only isn’t fun and can be plain dangerous. But with that said, we got the dual range EJ series gearbox for many years, so they’re readily available to source. 

@GeneralDisorder - I know what the last four of those vehicles on your list are. The first two, no clue as I’m 99% sure we didn’t get them here and they’re not a “common” personal import like the Pontiac models. 

I understand the love of older stuff. Mine is in the L series and MYs. Like Steptoe said, no issues getting parts for them over here, and I too can’t understand why oil pumps are swapped out so often that they’re no longer available! If demand is there, someone will make a replacement unit. 

@Tillaru - glad to hear you’ll move the Loyale on. The only good bits would be some trim pieces and the gearbox to the right buyer. 

Cheers 

Bennie

Edited May 25, 2020 by el_freddo

[GeneralDisorder]

8 hours ago, Tillaru said:

I started poking at car #2 a bit earlier. Is there a bolt-on solution for this idiotic motorized seatbelt?

Only if you find belts and interior trim from a right hand drive postal model or from Canada.

With the manual you will be stuck with AWD then. There is no locking the center diff - it doesn't have a "transfer case" as such - Subaru's use a "transaxle" that is the the transmission, front diff, center diff, and transfer gears all inside a single unit. The center diff is housed inside of the transmission and there's no way to convert it to 4WD. 

I used to believe in the superiority of the manual also. I falsely believed that the "sense" of control with so much right hand-job equated to actual control. I am older now with more experience and have rebuilt a thousand manual Subaru transmissions and wheeled Subaru's of every vintage for over two decades. 

I absolutely agree they are fun and often utilitarian. Have one in my Sport Sedan, my Formula, and my 2WD truck. But not in my Jimmy (off road), and not in my Trans Am (street strip) both have 700R4's because low range, and because shift speed. Auto's rule the drag racing world (powerglide) - for good reason. For wheeling the auto is FAR superior. And in the specific case of the first gen Legacy the auto is the more reliable transmission with far less maintenance (no clutch).

You will do as you like of course. But at least consider the educational value of my words. Build a manual - try it out. Eventually (someday) you may realize what I'm talking about. Remember this conversation when you are slipping the clutch over obstacles or having to take a running start to bash over something at high speed because crawling wasn't an option.

GD

[GeneralDisorder]

6 hours ago, el_freddo said:

 

@GeneralDisorder - I know what the last four of those vehicles on your list are. The first two, no clue as I’m 99% sure we didn’t get them here and they’re not a “common” personal import like the Pontiac models. 

Bennie

GMC is just Chevrolet. The C2500 is a 2WD Chevy 3/4 ton truck, and the "Jimmy" is the 4WD Blazer with nicer options.

GD

[Numbchux]

I agree on the EA82 chassis being junk. 

With an adapter plate, modified flywheel, custom linkage, custom crossmember, custom driveshaft, front axles that can only come from a '93-'94 FWD 5MT Impreza and probably swap the rear differential, the EA82 transmission could be put in the Legacy. Yes, you'd get true 4WD instead of AWD, and low range. But it's not much of a low range. It's a little better if the terrain you're on is very technical, but worse to drive on the pavement (true 4WD means you have to put it in 2WD, which is front wheel drive). Not worth it, IMO.

 

 

Yea, they basically changed everything (sometimes only a little bit...) when they went from the EA to EJ chassis for 1990 (I bet you'll find the one Legacy is a 1990, even if it was made in 89). A lot of that is based on the XT6, so XT6 parts can bridge the gap to use EJ parts on an EA82, and some things can be modified to work, but unless you're really set on using the old chassis it isn't worth it. 

[Tillaru]

11 hours ago, Numbchux said:

With an adapter plate, modified flywheel, custom linkage, custom crossmember, custom driveshaft, front axles that can only come from a '93-'94 FWD 5MT Impreza and probably swap the rear differential, the EA82 transmission could be put in the Legacy. Yes, you'd get true 4WD instead of AWD, and low range. But it's not much of a low range. It's a little better if the terrain you're on is very technical, but worse to drive on the pavement (true 4WD means you have to put it in 2WD, which is front wheel drive). Not worth it, IMO.

Yes, thank you for answering a direct technical question with a direct technical answer! Instead of helicopter suggestions...

Right, so that's not happening. Too much trouble. Hell, it'd be less work to glom on a driveshaft disconnect behind the trans. Custom driveshaft and other fabrication but at least the bellhousing and its contents stay stock. No, our terrain doesn't get technical enough that we even need raised ground clearance. But it does get hilly and muddy, sometimes snowy.

Half-baked thought: what's the possibility of manual hubs? That'd be a hokey and slightly inconvenient solution, but a solution nonethless. Ooh, I just stumbled upon Remco driveshaft and axle disconnect kits, and the info that 80's Isuzus shared some dimensions with Subaru. We happen to have, as another lawn ornament, an 82 P'up 4wd diesel longbed, and I'm going to be playing with its front end anyway to figure out aftermarket CV joints. With rear manual hubs, we could weld the rear diff, for more better traction with no effect on pavement drivability. Homework commences...

Edited May 27, 2020 by Tillaru

[GeneralDisorder]

What exactly would manual hubs solve? 

Also infeasible.

At that point just do what I did and buy a K5 Chevy Blazer. More capable and more reliable than the legacy. And more range with a 31 gallon tank, more cargo space and capacity. Towing, etc. 350 SBC parts are REALLY CHEAP compared to Subaru parts. 

GD

[el_freddo]

You want to keep the thing easy to maintain! Stock is the best way to do this. 

I wouldn’t be going to reinvent the wheel on this one for the sake of a comfortable ride.

Cheers 

Bennie

[Numbchux]

16 hours ago, Tillaru said:

Yes, thank you for answering a direct technical question with a direct technical answer! Instead of helicopter suggestions...

Right, so that's not happening. Too much trouble. Hell, it'd be less work to glom on a driveshaft disconnect behind the trans. Custom driveshaft and other fabrication but at least the bellhousing and its contents stay stock. No, our terrain doesn't get technical enough that we even need raised ground clearance. But it does get hilly and muddy, sometimes snowy.

Half-baked thought: what's the possibility of manual hubs? That'd be a hokey and slightly inconvenient solution, but a solution nonethless. Ooh, I just stumbled upon Remco driveshaft and axle disconnect kits, and the info that 80's Isuzus shared some dimensions with Subaru. We happen to have, as another lawn ornament, an 82 P'up 4wd diesel longbed, and I'm going to be playing with its front end anyway to figure out aftermarket CV joints. With rear manual hubs, we could weld the rear diff, for more better traction with no effect on pavement drivability. Homework commences...

Manual transmission Subarus have a viscous center diff. If you disconnect any of the 4 wheels, the center diff will just spin basically all the torque to that wheel (think horrendously slipping clutch, I saw a car driven across a perfectly flat shop floor that way, but it couldn't climb a 1" lip to get into the shop).

 

 

Of course, if it was an automatic, you could buy a rocker switch and switch it to FWD. But you don't want to talk about those.

[Tillaru]

Welded center diff and a rear driveline (or rear axle) disconnect would allow switching between locked 4WD and FWD.

[GeneralDisorder]

5 hours ago, Tillaru said:

Welded center diff and a rear driveline (or rear axle) disconnect would allow switching between locked 4WD and FWD.

You can't weld the center diff. It doesn't work that way. It's a viscous coupler, not a differential per-se and that would only burn it up in short order. Lookup what that is and how it works. You would have to install a spool (which I don't believe anyone makes), and an axle/driveshaft disconnect..... seriously this would cost more than just buying something with part time 4WD. You are talking about reinventing the wheel down there behind a Subaru transaxle - a cramped space to begin with with a bunch of custom parts, etc..... it's simply not worth the time or effort for a 30 year old $300 $hit box. Get real man. This is for a customer..... is he really prepared to pay for this level of insanity? Because that kind of BS is going to cost thousands and take a lot of man hours. It simply doesn't pencil out. If you wanted to do such a thing as a personal project and had a machine shop laying around that could design it, build it, and then harden/temper the parts for longevity.... .still wouldn't be worth it but might be educational. 

And even with a locked diff..... you get passed up by a 1999 Forester Automatic with a 4WD duty-c swich mod, an LSD rear diff and 165 HP..... which you can buy these days for most likely less than he's going to pay you to implement this nutty scheme of yours.

GD